Just some thoughts following a player discussion I had yesterday. What do you think F&D will be like?

Following EoE, I don't think AoR Beta held many surprises for us. It followed a very similar form to EoE - eight species, six careers with three specializations each, and one universal Force tree.

Also, in terms of what the PCs are, it followed on from d6 and Saga where the default was playing as Rebels and doing stuff against the Empire.

Now I have no problems making stuff up, but what will the default for F&D be? What will the player characters be? Is it set after the films, in which case they are the new Jedi of a new era?

Will there be six seperate careers with three talent trees each? Or will that be supplanted by the fact there's more Force trees now? Will we see the old dynamic of Jedi Guardians, Sentinels and Counselors?

Will there be non-Force careers; 'Destiny' suggests there may be. Will there be non-Jedi careers, like a generic 'Force Adept'? How will balance issues be handled when every PC has a Breach weapon?

Will they go back to the subtler Force aspect of the original films? Or go with the over-the-top, heavily manga/anime-influenced spellcasting of the prequels, cartoons and videogames?

It strikes me that this is the one they really need to get right, flavour-wise and mechanically.

Thoughts?

I would think they would have to have some kind of inside track on what the next movies hold for them to make any sense in regards to where specifically Jedi are going to go moving forward. I suppose they could just dip their toes in the water or so to speak and bring the exiles and emergents out a little more and call them dississidents or something. Then save the new movies as future updates. Although I don't know how successful that would make F&D if its so milk toast and doesn't go big on Jedi.

I don't think you get 6 careers with 3 specializations out of just Jedi so I would expect different careers included, re-packaged existing specializations in new careers, or just less careers period with the focus on Jedi alone.

I know I caused consternation before when I suggested F&D probably wouldn't be released until the new movies are but I just don't see how you do it correctly without taking the new canon into account.

I'm figuring we'll get the usual "three specializations per career" set-up that FFG has used so far, as there's certainly a wealth of Force traditions to draw from. I suspect we'll also see reprints of all five Force powers that have been published to date, since this is the Force-user's book.

While "six careers" seems to be the standard, I'm wondering if FFG will break the mold a bit, and perhaps not provide as many careers. Pretty sure there will be a Jedi career, and I'll be surprised if they don't follow the Consular/Guardian/Sentinel framework that's been in place since the first KOTOR game. But after that, they could probably go in terms of themes for the other careers, with a "magician/scholar" type who focuses mostly on using the Force, a "warrior" type that's more of a combatant with the Force used to bolster their combat prowess, and maybe even a "dabbler" that's a mix of the two. It's also possible they could include a "dark sider" career and specializations (such as the Nightsister and Inquisitor).

Or, they could take an entirely unexpected route and provide a Jedi career, but also a single generic "Force Adept" career with the various Force traditions simply being universal specializations, with the Force Adept simply choosing one of those universal specs as their starting specialization (including the Emergent and Exile). Of course, you might run into a bit of an issue if the Force Adept is too focused on being from a primitive background (WotC ran into this with their Force Adept class in the OCR/RCR versions), so which skills are the default career skills might be a bit of a balancing act; certainly not impossible though.

I don't think we'll see much in the way of non-Force careers, as the muggles already have two core rulebooks with careers and specializations they can pick from, which are flexible enough to cover a wide variety of character concepts. I do figure there will be new species in F&D, and they'll certainly be options for non-F/S PCs, much as Wookiees and Twi'leks are viable options for AoR characters and Mon Calamari and Sullustans are viable for EotE characters.

In terms of Force Powers, if the trend continues from the current material, then I suspect they'll be sticking with the "Force use is generally subtle" paradigm vs. the kung fu wizards approach that the EU (especially post-RotJ) has taken. Really the only truly blatant "Force = magic" bits we see in the movies are telekinesis (the Move power) and Force/Sith lightning, the later of which is easily excused as generally being a corruption of the Force.

While over-the-top Force-users are fine and fun for videogames, someone like Kyle Katarn or particularly Starkiller doesn't work well in an RPG as they'll quickly hog the spotlight from everyone else, much the way a high-level wizard does in most editions of D&D. That's not to say FFG won't include the option to "crank up the dial" to allow certain groups to have such over-the-top characters, but it may just be a sidebar... if it gets included at all. Of course, easiest way to get Starkiller-type PCs would be to drop the requirements of additional Force Points to activate power upgrades, which the EotE Beta proved would give you ridiculously powerful PC Force-users with just a single Force die.

And Force & Destiny certainly doesn't need to be bound to the upcoming movies, especially if it's set during the Rebellion Era, which all indications suggest is going to be the case, as EotE and AoR are both set in that era, and F&D is meant to work in full tandem with those two books. If the new movies are dealt with at all in the product line, it can be as a supplement, same as if they choice to branch out into the KOTOR/SWTOR, Clone Wars, or Legacy eras.

I think FFG already has plans for F&D so they are not influenced much by the new movies. Even if they are taking them into account, I don't think they will stray far from their inspiration which seems to be making a game more faithful to the original trilogy or WEG than the video games or cartoons.They may draw bits and pieces from here and there in the EU, but seemed intent on staying true to their vision.

If, as I suspect, the 'development of the Force' in the FFG books is meant to follow the original trilogy specifically and the powers demonstrated therein by the four depicted Force-users in analogous-to-chronological order, then I actually don't expect that many new powers, but more likely new upgrades.

I would think by the end of next year with the next movies in full swing a lot of the question about how much control Disney intends to exert over the IP will be answered. I would also think by then FFG will be firming up release time frames.

Ach piss off you Jedi haters. You got two games without Jedi in. Let the lightsaber fen have their turn.

You have the power to refuse to play in Force and Destiny games if you are worried about Jedi overshadowing your non Jedi PCs. Lord protect us from the special snowflakes who want to play Jedi in EoR, Imperials in AoR and non-Jedi in F&D...

From what I saw (not sure if it was in the beginners box intro or the core book intro) F&D will be a story about suriving Jedi facing the struggle of following the code or doing what they must to survive.

How they are going to lay out the mechanics is a good question. Do they start you with force rating one showing that your an apprentice trained in secret, or start you with a force rating of 3 showing that your an old pro who's been in hiding and now destiny is starting to stir you. Both are good ideas but it raises some questions on character creation and overall balance.

Whatever they do I see the Jedi blending well with a group of equal xp. Playing with a mixed group of force users and non force users we have seen that being able to lift a starship provides no help when you have to slice a computer.

Bwahahahaha!! Luckily for us FFG seems more interested in creating a game where all types of characters can comingle, Erik. I know, what a concept, eh? Found a game yet? Or are you waiting for F&D so you can play your uber-Jedi, throwing star destroyers, leaping tall buildings, and with their lightsaber shield of "You can't touch this!"? I think you are going to be sorely disappointed and still not playing. Thanks for the entertainmant, though.

Bwahahahaha!! Luckily for us FFG seems more interested in creating a game where all types of characters can comingle, Erik. I know, what a concept, eh? Found a game yet? Or are you waiting for F&D so you can play your uber-Jedi, throwing star destroyers, leaping tall buildings, and with their lightsaber shield of "You can't touch this!"? I think you are going to be sorely disappointed and still not playing. Thanks for the entertainmant, though.

So that's why your called mouthymerc, well played sir

I am just saying, if you want to play a game with no Jedi, FFG already make one with another on the way. Stick to EotE or AoR and you never need think about the Jedi!

Erik, nobody is saying 'F&D shouldn't have Jedi in it'.

The questions are those of balance, seeing as all three games are supposed to be compatible (unlike, say, the 40K games FFG produce). At present, the Force users in my games are not notably outclassing everyone else. Will that still be the case in F&D? Nobody knows, which is why I wanted to talk about it here.

And whether other non-Jedi Force users will be catered for.

Erik, nobody is saying 'F&D shouldn't have Jedi in it'.

You are probably going to find that the F&D forum will be filled with a perpetual flamewar between people who want Jedi to be invincible sword princesses (because that is what they want to play), and people who want Jedi to be as crap as possible, because they don't want to have to put up with being in the same game with people playing invincible sword princesses.

I hope to stay out of it this time, and also hopefully the people who don't want to have to play in games with ISPs will realize they can simply by avoiding having anything to do with F&D.

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I think the characters in F&D will be newbie force users in the Galactic civil war era. Something like the Heroes TV show where characters discover they have powerz and band together to explore said potential, or like Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles where they are force sensitives trained in secret by an old Jedi.

And yet again your reading comprehension is a failure, Erik. No one is saying they do not want to play Jedi. What they do want, and what FFG is stating they want to do, is have a game where all types of characters, bounty hunters, princesses, scoundrels and Jedi, can play together without being outshined or marginalized by each other.

And yes, while I think the focus of the book will be on the Force, I do think there will be options for non-Force-centric characters too. The non-Force unispec in AoR is a good start for alternative options and leaves room for more.

You mean the same way you predicted how the EotE boards would be innundated by people blasting FFG for not including Jedi from the getgo, Erik? Still waiting for that one. I sincerely doubt FFG is going to make Jedi into the ubermen you want as that would invalidate their position that they want all the games to integrate together. They are not creating Buffy and the Scoobies, no matter how much you want it.

I sincerely doubt FFG is going to make Jedi into the ubermen you want

Probably not, but they are probably not going to be as useless as you would like either. End result - no one gets what they want.

Every character is useless at some point or another.

Again, reading comprehension failure. You are frikkin hilarious. When did I say I want them to be useless? It is you that want all other characters to be useless in comparison to them. A majority of people want a game where all characters can be similar, if not equal. You want Buffy and the Scoobies. It's no wonder you don't get to play, no one wants to play your video game version of Star Wars.

You want Buffy and the Scoobies.

Have you considered not insisting on playing a scoobie in a game where everyone else is playing a buffy?

You want Buffy and the Scoobies.

Have you considered not insisting on playing a scoobie in a game where everyone else is playing a buffy?

I would totally rock a mandalorian character (EotE highered gun mercenary) alongside a group of Jedi. I would even offer to teach them how to really fight

Guys, the best way to deal with ErikB is just ignore the little prat. He's got absolutely nothing to contribute in terms of intelligent discussion, and a very long history of ignoring what others have said when it comes to propagating his delusional fantasies. As long as folks are willing to dance to his tune, he's got no reason to change his habits.

Fair point donovan.

So, what are people's thoughts on the F&D obligation equivalent? I have a feeling it's going to tie the character to the force and converting dark side points to light side points is going to cause a negative effect.

So, in closing, if you wouldn't insist on playing a Jedi in an Edge of the Empire game, don't insist on playing a non-Jedi in a Force and Destiny game.

When the other players have picked Leonardo, Donatello and Michelangelo if you absolutely have to be a special snowflake and not choose Raphael, choose Casey Jones. And if you really must be that guy and play April O'Neil, at least have the decency not to whinge when when you spend the whole game getting kidnapped and waiting to be rescued.

I think the characters in F&D will be newbie force users in the Galactic civil war era. Something like the Heroes TV show where characters discover they have powerz and band together to explore said potential, or like Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles where they are force sensitives trained in secret by an old Jedi.

That's... actually a constructive reply. Thank you. It wasn't so hard, was it?

And as for 'princesses', I think most people would like Jedi as a balanced option, not one that makes the Han Solo's and Wedge Antilles types redundant.

I think many of us will want to play all three versions of this game and incorporate the different elements. It would be a shame if FFG didn't carefully balance their last version with the two that came before. 'Power creep' seems to be something they are wary about.

While "six careers" seems to be the standard, I'm wondering if FFG will break the mold a bit, and perhaps not provide as many careers. Pretty sure there will be a Jedi career, and I'll be surprised if they don't follow the Consular/Guardian/Sentinel framework that's been in place since the first KOTOR game. But after that, they could probably go in terms of themes for the other careers, with a "magician/scholar" type who focuses mostly on using the Force, a "warrior" type that's more of a combatant with the Force used to bolster their combat prowess, and maybe even a "dabbler" that's a mix of the two. It's also possible they could include a "dark sider" career and specializations (such as the Nightsister and Inquisitor).

While over-the-top Force-users are fine and fun for videogames, someone like Kyle Katarn or particularly Starkiller doesn't work well in an RPG as they'll quickly hog the spotlight from everyone else, much the way a high-level wizard does in most editions of D&D. That's not to say FFG won't include the option to "crank up the dial" to allow certain groups to have such over-the-top characters, but it may just be a sidebar... if it gets included at all. Of course, easiest way to get Starkiller-type PCs would be to drop the requirements of additional Force Points to activate power upgrades, which the EotE Beta proved would give you ridiculously powerful PC Force-users with just a single Force die.

I hope you're right, Donovan.

I'd be very happy with that personally. Give us lots of Force options and keep things balanced with the existing characters.