There's some good advice here, thanks for everyone's input. I admit, our first (and thus far, only) space battle, I didn't include any kind of stellar terrain or anything because I just wanted to try to get a feel for how it worked basically, but the ships in combat with the PCs were tearing them apart, and the PCs had an Ace Pilot/Gunner in the group, but the pilot didn't get to do much as a pilot except get shot down. Maybe if I'd have thrown some "difficult terrain" in there, he could have shown off his skills better and gotten a more complete piloting experience. Will definitely look into that before we do another space combat!

But I was also thinking about maybe giving skilled pilots a bit of a bonus to avoid getting hit....for every 2 ranks of a Pilot skill you have, it adds a setback dice to the attacker. This would go both ways, of course, but it would give at lease some sort of "I'm harder to hit because I'm a better pilot" passive bonus. Does that sound too overpowered, given that it will work for both sides of GM screen?

Evasive maneuvers is the "Harder to Hit" pilot-only maneuver/action (don't have my book with me). So there's already something in there for the pilot to do to avoid getting hit.

And any combat where there is no cover or terrain to take advantage of is going to be quick: really quick if one side is outnumbered!

-EF

I know about Evasive Maneuvers, but what I was talking about would be a passive "bonus" to the pilot without having to take a maneuver or action. It's just a built-in modifier like defense or cover or anything like that that is just part of the difficulty to hit.

That's going to draw out space fights a lot unless you apply it to the player side only, which you shouldn't.

I guess I'm just stuck in the d6 way of thinking. This is the reason I didn't really like d20 space combat either, ships just had an AC to hit.

And do I believe that the same kind of principal should be given to characters and not just ships? Yes, because as it stands right now, the character with a 6 Agility is just as easy to hit as someone with a 1. It just doesn't seem right...

Maybe giving my aforementioned Piloting bonus should only apply to PCs, Rivals, and Nemesis class characters? That way, ships flown by lowly minions won't take any longer than they are now.

Rather than being a passive bonus of one setback, it seems to me that Evasive Maneuvers should be a contested piloting roll, and any successes gained become setback dice for anyone targeting the ship until the beginning of the pilot's next turn.

Rather than being a passive bonus of one setback, it seems to me that Evasive Maneuvers should be a contested piloting roll, and any successes gained become setback dice for anyone targeting the ship until the beginning of the pilot's next turn.

This opposed piloting check you speak of is already in the RAW, in a manner of speaking. Two different passages come to mind, the first being on page 116 under the "Piloting (Space)" header, third bullet point; "During a space conflict, pilots may often jockey for position to determine which shields face the enemy and which weapons may be brought to bear. When opponents attempt to negate these efforts, the winner is identified through an opposed Piloting (Space) check."

The next passage is on page 231, under the "Small Craft Combat" header; "Small craft combat (especially with high speed vehicles such as airspeeders, speeder bikes, and starfighters) is quite abstracted. As they are constantly moving and striving with one anothe for the upper hand (and thanks to their incredible speed and agility) it would be nearly impossible to map out every move a starfighter makes. Instead, the Gamemaster and players describe the actons the characters and NPCs take, embellish them with narrative flair, and make skill checks to resolve the actions."

How does this work in conjunction with Evasive Maneuvers/Gain the Advantage? That can largely vary depending on the situation.

Imagine two starfighters charging one another at the start of an engagement. The first character to act can fire his weapons, but it's reasonable to assume that the other pilot will "attempt to negate these efforts", so an opposed Piloting check needs to be rolled first (as a maneuver, I would say), the results of which can have a big effect on the upcoming combat check. We'll say the initiating pilot won the opposed check with aTriumph and two Advantages, so he upgrades his Gunnery check and adds a Boost die to it. He opens fire, scoring a decent hit. The two starfighters scream past each other spitting lasers, but the initiating pilot wins out and tears a large hole in his opponent's fuselage.

Now let's say the initiating pilot pays 2 strain to take Evasive Maneuvers right after making the opposed Piloting check and subsequent Gunnery check. His starfighter enters a spinning roll while he keeps a close eye on his radar screen. When his opponent's turn comes around, his opponent has to make another opposed Piloting check to whip his broken starfighter in the opposite direction toward the initiating pilot. Let's say he wins this check, but there were a couple of Setback dice due to the difficulty of the maneuver, so he doesn't get any upgrades or Boost dice to his Gunnery check. Luckily, he DOES have the Master Pilot talent, so he pays 2 strain and uses the Gain the Advantage, using his ship's superior speed to easily catch up with the initiating pilot (as represented by the check's low difficulty), thus downgrading a Challenge die and even earning a Boost die to his Gunnery check while he's at it. He attacks and scores a crit! Now the initiating pilot needs to speed away as fast as he can so his astromech droid can perform some makeshift repairs...

When the initiating pilot returns, his opponent is busy bombing a medical frigate, using Evasive Maneuvers to spin around while he does so. Thus busy, the initiating pilot can aim and then attack without needing to make an opposed Piloting check. He does so, but earns a Despair in so doing, which is interpreted 1 hull damage to the medical frigate from stray shots.

So on and so forth.

In my humble opinion, running vehicular combat depends pretty heavily on description, and would thus get bogged down with too many rules. I agree that the existence of Gain the Advantage is confusing given the description of the Piloting (Space) skill and other sections of the book, but in my opinion it's really there to provide a real advantage to faster ships as oppposed to just maneuverable ships (which already have a huge advantage with the implied opposed Piloting checks).

Bottom line: I recommend keeping things the way they are and experimenting with the RAW of space combat in regards to the descriptions your players give you. Pass out sheets explaining the different actions available in vehicular combat, and in time players will approach these kinds of scenes with creativity and strategy.

JonahHex, I like the idea of most of what you wrote. I'm re-reading the space combat stuff in the rulebook now and getting a clearer idea of how it should work.

However, if you're rolling a Piloting check, isn't that an action? You describe having the pilot roll an opposed Piloting check as a maneuver. Is there precedent for making checks as a maneuver? I always felt like things that require checks are complex enough to be considered actions.

JonahHex, I like the idea of most of what you wrote. I'm re-reading the space combat stuff in the rulebook now and getting a clearer idea of how it should work.

However, if you're rolling a Piloting check, isn't that an action? You describe having the pilot roll an opposed Piloting check as a maneuver. Is there precedent for making checks as a maneuver? I always felt like things that require checks are complex enough to be considered actions.

Certainly not, although in most cases you're right. To name something from the RAW off the top of my head, page 31 of Beyond the Rim describes an encounter/chase scene inside a crowded space station, wherein each character has to make an Average Athletics or Coordination check every time they use a maneuver to make their way through the crowd or push their way through it. Page 240 of the Core Rulebook also describes how Piloting checks are made while maneuvering through obstacles, and all that's said is that these checks need to be made as long as the obstacles are present no matter what might be going on; no word is given as to whether or not it's an action or a maneuver to do this, but I think it's implied that moving around obstacles is a manuever. For instance, while dogfighting in an asteroid field, checks need to be made each round to avoid crashing even as you fire at the enemy.

Other examples are abound, but regardless you should know that sometimes checks take only a maneuver to perform, paricularly when they're movement-based.

If it's a reaction, there's no reason why you can't call for a piloting roll as an Incidental.

If it's a reaction, there's no reason why you can't call for a piloting roll as an Incidental.

In the case of the opposing pilot, sure. However, I usually call for it to be a maneuver to prevent the option of aiming or the like when you're busy trying to jockey for position. Aiming is still possible, of course, it just costs 2 strain.

Again, this is simply my own ruling for most situations. I could change my mind if convinced by a savvy player in the right situation. Hence why vehicular combat rules are so loose and -- in their own way -- versatile.

@JonahHex-what you describe above about the Piloting skill making opposed checks vying for position sounds like what Gain the Advantage is supposed to be used for. So maybe GtA should be an opposed piloting check, with setback or boost dice added for adjustment due to speed. I.E. the faster ship gets a boost die for every point faster he is than the other. Or maybe the slower ship gets the difficulty upgraded for every point of speed difference.

@JonahHex-what you describe above about the Piloting skill making opposed checks vying for position sounds like what Gain the Advantage is supposed to be used for. So maybe GtA should be an opposed piloting check, with setback or boost dice added for adjustment due to speed. I.E. the faster ship gets a boost die for every point faster he is than the other. Or maybe the slower ship gets the difficulty upgraded for every point of speed difference.

Its not GtA, its a similar but not identical alternative. GtA does more, but has a lot of special restrictions, an opposed piloting check does less, but also has a different difficulty set and far fewer restrictions. They are supposed to be different to provide pilots with options, trying to make them the same reduces the utility of it as an option and weakens the play choices of the pilot character.

@JonahHex-what you describe above about the Piloting skill making opposed checks vying for position sounds like what Gain the Advantage is supposed to be used for. So maybe GtA should be an opposed piloting check, with setback or boost dice added for adjustment due to speed. I.E. the faster ship gets a boost die for every point faster he is than the other. Or maybe the slower ship gets the difficulty upgraded for every point of speed difference.

Its not GtA, its a similar but not identical alternative. GtA does more, but has a lot of special restrictions, an opposed piloting check does less, but also has a different difficulty set and far fewer restrictions. They are supposed to be different to provide pilots with options, trying to make them the same reduces the utility of it as an option and weakens the play choices of the pilot character.

I included Gain the Advantage in my description of vehicular combat. Simply put, opposed Piloting checks are a test of skill and maneuverbility, whereas Gain the Advantage is more a test of using your vehicles SPEED (very different from maneuverbility/handling) to... well, gain the advantage.

To reiterate my previous point: the rules are fine the way they are, they just need creative intrepretation.

My group has only had one "space" combat and it wasn`t even in space. They were in the athmosphere of a planet flying a YT-1300. They were investigating a destroyed weather control station when a Storm IV Twin-Pod Cloud Car takes off and tries to make a break for it. Pilots both make checks to punch it and they go speeding off together, the cloud car finds it cannot evade them so it turns and starts to fight. So one of the players runs to the turret to fend em off. First hit nearly takes the cloud car down (wasn`t suppose to be a challenge) but the cloud car gains the advantage on the larger lumbering YT and hits them back. The player on the only turret suddenly remembers that they have a EM jammer aboard that would make it harder for the cloud car to hit em. So for the next two freakin rounds the player runs down from the turret into the cockpit, turns on the EM and then runs back to the turret. Nevermind the fact that the pilot could have turned it on the whole time if the player had just told them to do it. This whole time the Cloud Car is just pummeling them with its cannons. The player who finally gets back to his turret then misses twice in a row with the cloud car nailing them again. They finally get the cloud car off their tail and kill it with a nice shot. They were under half of their WT on something they should have finished off in one or two rounds. Embarassing. Still the mechanics were easy enough for my players to get. Everybody was doing something each round, even if they weren`t very effective.

I do get the speed ideas and the range distances increase exponetially, I think the ratio of short distance to medium distance is something like 5 to 10 times the size. So if you`re flying at a 2 speed and someone else is at a 4 speed you can both end up in the same range "band". It does make some sense in the narrative but it becomes alittle hard to get your head around when you try to play it I agree. I see it like in Episode IV when the Falcon is just getting swarmed all over by TIE fighters, they are faster so no matter what you do in open space, they have the speed advantage. Starwars fights are better expained like WWII dog fights that actual space battles anyways. The TIE probably didn`t count on the quad turbo laser accuracy though.

I will go into the physics of it (on a basic level.. If i can) in atmospheric conditions, there are a few different things going on, but at it's core it's forward movement VS. drag and lift VS Gravity so in it's totality becomes Forward Movement + Lift VS Drag + Gravity (mass and shape affect this type of flight). In space flight, there is no drag and minimal influence of gravity (just stay away from the black holes) with no lift (lift and gravity cancel out) so you are left with Momentum and mass as the primary factors in movement calculations. so lets make this simple, lets take a 5 hp lawnmower engine and move a 80 ton tank it takes a long time to move it a few feet, but then take the 2500 hp jet turbine you can go 80+MPH easily. and seeing as there is more mass a larger ship takes more power to move and stop than a smaller ship hence the smaller ship can accelerate and decelerate faster. While both can go to "ludicrous speed" (oops wrong movie....) it just takes longer for the ship with more mass to achieve it.