If everything is abstracted and every ship can move between the same range bands in the same amount of time, what good is having a faster ship? Not counting maneuverability, which adds setback or boost die, what is the point? Or did I miss something somewhere that this has an effect on? I've only done one space battle so far and I didn't see much point in the characters taking the effort to punch it, and the pilot character was asking about the talent that increases their speed by 1, and I didn't have an answer for him on what benefit this would have. So, if anyone can give me a couple examples of where this matters, please post here!

Chase rules.

Huh? I'm pretty sure ships moving at a faster speed can move between range bands with fewer maneuvers,

Huh? I'm pretty sure ships moving at a faster speed can move between range bands with fewer maneuvers,

Not at speeds 2-4. They all change range bands at the same rate

To be honest I'm completely mystified as to how to run starship combat in the first place.

Both times I've run Escape from Mos Schuuta, escaping from the TIEs at the end has been the weirdest part, feeling unpredictable and chaotic but not in a fun way.

Unless I can figure this out, I'm definitely avoiding space combat in the future.

To be honest I'm completely mystified as to how to run starship combat in the first place.

I think there are a lot of threads about the subject of space combat issues, but what about space combat (versus normal combat) is confusing or frustrating to you?

To be honest I'm completely mystified as to how to run starship combat in the first place.

Both times I've run Escape from Mos Schuuta, escaping from the TIEs at the end has been the weirdest part, feeling unpredictable and chaotic but not in a fun way.

Unless I can figure this out, I'm definitely avoiding space combat in the future.

Escape from Mos Shuuta is a terrible example of how starship rules work is why. It explains the basic mechanic sure, but the actual encounter design is flat, and the starship action choices don't apply well to TIE fighters and the krayt fang.

Ghostofman, I think that's probably it.

I'm sure I need to re-read the rules again, but I just don't understand how to use the actions recommended in the Adventure Book.

I can understand characters moving through physical space on the ground, but I have a hard time understanding the way EOTE models spaceships which are in motion using the range rules, and the meanings of the spaceships' speed attributes.

I'd love to see, read or hear some examples of a space encounter being played by people who know what they're doing with it!

I feel pretty comfortable with combat encounters on the ground, and making them exciting and fun. I'm sure I could learn from people who know how to do it with space.

I'd love to see, read or hear some examples of a space encounter being played by people who know what they're doing with it!

Agreed, that would be very useful. I've been mostly avoiding it. Some of my barriers are conceptual (eg: Fly twice...?), so at this point the only time I've done ship combat is when there is a chase on, and then it's very short.

Was going to start a new thread but this one seems to be asking the same question. I am also having trouble understanding the space combat rules, not only the relevance of a speed score but also the point of having a pilot skill at all if its never used?

The difference in speed isn't just for movement its for maneuverability. In EotE speed rating also partially represent how maneuverable a craft is. So for example, a y-wing and a lambda shuttle can move at about the same speed when trying to actually put distance between them and something else (from the perspective of the range band system, remember each range band in planetary scale is really really big compared to what you are probably used to). But, a y-wing is a smidge faster, and can better use its speed when making maneuvers compared to the shuttle (see gain the advantage and speed based difficulty). Handling represents the other part of maneuverability, how easy it is To make a ship do something requiring more fine control.

The reason the Pilot in skill isn't used that often is FFG is trying to deviate from the normal paradigm of vehicle combat in RPGs to free up the pilot to do more interesting things. The pilot can use maneuvers and actions to achieve certain tactical bonuses, but he doesn't have to roll every single turn just to keep his plane in the air. The idea is to give the pilot more flexibility of action, not so important when you've got a fully crewed freighter, but as star wars the one man fighter is a very real and iconic option. When its just you in the cockpit blowing a maneuver every sigle turn to simply not crash is a waste when you might want it to do something like spoof a missile instead.

Speed mostly comes up when there are obstacles - which there should almost always be! Asteroids, a ring of ancient satellites, debris from a battle that took place millenia ago, you should never be having a space fight in empty space. Because it's boring.

When there are stellar phenomena or terrain (p. 240), pilots have to roll a difficulty of their silhouette halved, then rounded up (so YT-1300 is a sil of 4, halved would be 2) and its speed is 3, so you'd have 3 difficulty from the speed, upgraded twice from the silhouette. All of a sudden, blasting around at speed 3 means you're rolling 1 Difficulty and 2 Challenge dice against your piloting skill, and that's *before* you add in any setbacks from the type of terrain you're flying through.

So while I agree that speed is a bit silly at speeds 2-4, since you can move the same distance, it's all about specific instances that speed becomes an issue - like obstacles, combat and chases. Which is actually how it should be, really.

Speed mostly comes up when there are obstacles - which there should almost always be! Asteroids, a ring of ancient satellites, debris from a battle that took place millenia ago, you should never be having a space fight in empty space. Because it's boring.

Well, isn't that kind of the point? A dogfight, even in empty space, should be exciting, but I don't think the mechanics are very effective, they actually make empty-space dogfights boring.

Then again, we don't see many empty-space dogfights in the movies, except when the Falcon is escaping the Death Star.

The Battles of Naboo and Endor are kind of fraught with star fighter squadrons, capital ships, and shrapnel. Yavin is a mix of TIE fighters, surface fire from Death Star turbo lasers, and the physical bulk of the station on top of it. Escaping Hoth would involve fighting off TIEs while dodging asteroids and trying to dodge out of Star Destroyers' firing solutions. Blowing off of Coursucant should involve a dogfight while dodging tons of civilian and military traffic - some of which turns and starts chasing you to the jump point!

It's only boring if the GM wants it to be boring. Take cues from the other fights and the Rogue Squadron games, not from the Tantive IV vs Devastator in the opening scene of Episode IV.

I shared this in the GM forum but i'll share it here as well,

I have been performing space combat as follows:

GM announces initial range..

2. Players roll for initiative

3.. When its a pilots turn, he/she rolls an opposing piloting check against the Other ships pilot (if against multiple ships, against the pilot with highest piloting skill), if the roll is successful, the pilot gets to successfully perform whatever "Pilot Only" maneuvers/actions (on pg 232-235 in core rulebook) they want (no additonal roll). If they failed the piloting check, the opposing ship has shaken off that pilots attempt, no maneuvers or actions granted.

In regards to speed, if an opposing ship is not matching the other ships present speed, the opposing pilot will receive a number of setback dice on opposing pilot checks, equal to how many speed points they are short. Also, they will simply lose them in as many rounds as i see fit (if the ship is trying to escape the other ship).

There are exceptions to the rule ofcourse, but this has been my default approach and it has really smoothed out space combat for my group. Hope it helps.

We added a house rule:

When making Evasive Maneuvers add number of dice Speed/silhouette to the difficulty to hit. For example a TiE, flying speed 4 would add 2 red dice (to standard diff)

Thus 2 ships doing that in a dogfight are more diff to hhit, but also have trouble hitting anything unless they do Gain the Advantage

There's some good advice here, thanks for everyone's input. I admit, our first (and thus far, only) space battle, I didn't include any kind of stellar terrain or anything because I just wanted to try to get a feel for how it worked basically, but the ships in combat with the PCs were tearing them apart, and the PCs had an Ace Pilot/Gunner in the group, but the pilot didn't get to do much as a pilot except get shot down. Maybe if I'd have thrown some "difficult terrain" in there, he could have shown off his skills better and gotten a more complete piloting experience. Will definitely look into that before we do another space combat!

But I was also thinking about maybe giving skilled pilots a bit of a bonus to avoid getting hit....for every 2 ranks of a Pilot skill you have, it adds a setback dice to the attacker. This would go both ways, of course, but it would give at lease some sort of "I'm harder to hit because I'm a better pilot" passive bonus. Does that sound too overpowered, given that it will work for both sides of GM screen?

There's some good advice here, thanks for everyone's input. I admit, our first (and thus far, only) space battle, I didn't include any kind of stellar terrain or anything because I just wanted to try to get a feel for how it worked basically, but the ships in combat with the PCs were tearing them apart, and the PCs had an Ace Pilot/Gunner in the group, but the pilot didn't get to do much as a pilot except get shot down. Maybe if I'd have thrown some "difficult terrain" in there, he could have shown off his skills better and gotten a more complete piloting experience. Will definitely look into that before we do another space combat!

But I was also thinking about maybe giving skilled pilots a bit of a bonus to avoid getting hit....for every 2 ranks of a Pilot skill you have, it adds a setback dice to the attacker. This would go both ways, of course, but it would give at lease some sort of "I'm harder to hit because I'm a better pilot" passive bonus. Does that sound too overpowered, given that it will work for both sides of GM screen?

Evasive maneuvers is the "Harder to Hit" pilot-only maneuver/action (don't have my book with me). So there's already something in there for the pilot to do to avoid getting hit.

And any combat where there is no cover or terrain to take advantage of is going to be quick: really quick if one side is outnumbered!

-EF

And any combat where there is no cover or terrain to take advantage of is going to be quick: really quick if one side is outnumbered!

-EF

Exactly, not to mention a pretty boring scene to set, just lots of back-and-forth slugging.

Personally I would try with a more dangerous environmental scene in the background before adding lots of house rules to make it harder to hit ships. The challenge is already there as long as you're not trying to replay the first scene of Ep 4. Slugouts are cool to watch but not fun to play.

And any combat where there is no cover or terrain to take advantage of is going to be quick: really quick if one side is outnumbered!

-EF

Exactly, not to mention a pretty boring scene to set, just lots of back-and-forth slugging.

Personally I would try with a more dangerous environmental scene in the background before adding lots of house rules to make it harder to hit ships. The challenge is already there as long as you're not trying to replay the first scene of Ep 4. Slugouts are cool to watch but not fun to play.

The Falcon escaping the Death Star was a pretty exciting scene, and the only thing there was one freighter and 3 TIE fighters.

I agree that, in general, it's a good idea to add environmental details to almost any fight scene. I've even made myself several charts I can roll on or reference to remind myself of all the things that can happen in a fight which make it more interesting than PCs and NPCs ducking behind cover and shooting at each other.

Stuff like, the NPCs move around to get a better strategic position, or they shoot at something architectural which puts multiple people in danger, or they take a civilian hostage, or they toss a smoke grenade and try to gain ground in the confusion.

But starships dogfighting, in my opinion, should be an inherently exciting sequence.

It can certainly be made MORE exciting by adding asteroids, capital ships, space slugs, nebulae, gas gulpers, etc. But I still think that two fast ships shooting at each other, dodging and weaving, should be able to be exciting.

I'd love to see some examples, podcasts or transcripts of space combat encounters in EOTE to see what other people are doing differently than me.

Part of that sequence being exciting was the fact that it was a well-shot scene in a film, with the camera focusing only on the gunners of the freighter and the fighter pilots.

In a game, going off the exact same example, Chewie and Leia's "players" would be excluded. Or if the Falcon was doing cool evasive stuff, we sure didn't see it play out on screen. That scene is a great example for a movie doing something right, but the game mechanics being unlikely to replicate it as a fun scene to play out.

Part of that sequence being exciting was the fact that it was a well-shot scene in a film, with the camera focusing only on the gunners of the freighter and the fighter pilots.

In a game, going off the exact same example, Chewie and Leia's "players" would be excluded. Or if the Falcon was doing cool evasive stuff, we sure didn't see it play out on screen. That scene is a great example for a movie doing something right, but the game mechanics being unlikely to replicate it as a fun scene to play out.

But a scene like that has its place: particularly that first space encounter a group plays (just like it was in the movies). Once you've traded blows with TIE Fighters, it's time to graduate to trench runs, to asteroid fields, to major combat zones with other ships and stray fire to dodge, or to blockade running.

I still feel like it should be possible to make the Krayt Fang versus 3 TIE Fighters into an exciting sequence for all the players involved, even ones who aren't doing as much as the gunners.

It can, but it is more about the description (narrative) than about the mechanics. Take the rolls and embellish the results with the narrative. As the GM that is part of the job, creating the description from the dice results to make what happens fun and exciting. Rolling the dice don't, in-and-of themselves lend to a lot of actual excitement.