That shows exactly what i thought : players cant do a FAQ

I'm not sure that's true in general, but I think we both agree that these players can't do a FAQ.

Anyway, after a couple of more games with Hidden Kingdom cards, my stance at the moment is that it's still far too early for any changes to the meta, even if they were carried out in a more responsible way. 'Standard' decks, especially those based on Wurrzag and Hellebron, are generally weakened through Corb Polybog, and DE mill decks take specific hits from the rebirth of Undead and, perhaps, from Wood Elves recursion with Wildwood Grove.

Let's see how the meta shakes out with the four new factions before altering the rules and creating regional houserules; at the moment there's no obviously overpowered combo, so turn your creativity towards deckbuilding instead of rule tweaking.

As for desertion: Yeah, for the neutral factions, that's a hard one. The question is, if players want to include this card for 4 of 10 matchups. So I'm not sure if it's too good at the moment. But I agree, that it is a card that has to be observed in next time.

Personally I think, that Paranoia is even more important to change due to the neutral factions. That card can be good against standard races too and is a 1 cost kill for any unit in a neutral deck.

Desertion is a hard one, and that's good, I feel. Play some games against Undead opening with Drakenhof Castle (or worse, Remote Monastery) in Kingdom and Vlad in the next turn. This is already pretty strong, and once Undead players have a bit more experience and tuned their decks, we'll be happy to have a silver bullet against this setup.

As far as I can tell, Paranoia is not played a lot at tournaments, and as an attachment it is naturally vulnerable. And technically, it's not a kill, the afflicted unit will just be very lonely in its zone

Again, I'd prefer for everyone to get a bit of experience with the new meta before folks go around changing stuff.

I'm not sure that's true in general, but I think we both agree that these players can't do a FAQ.

Yeah, well, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man.

Maik have you already tested that Undead or WE are hard counters to Crone decks? I'm especially curious how adding hp to the capital with Wildwood Grove helps you against milling.

Maik have you already tested that Undead or WE are hard counters to Crone decks? I'm especially curious how adding hp to the capital with Wildwood Grove helps you against milling.

No proper tests yet, and I would not go as far as calling it a hard counter without that. However, I'm quite sure that mill decks are weakened against Undead, with the following reasoning:

Milling hurts you because a) your opponent wins when your deck is emptied and b) you are losing cards that might have been crucial to your plans. For the Undead, b) is clearly less of a concern, since there are a lot of cards you'd rather see on your discard than in your deck or even in your hand. And Necromancy moves cards from discard to deck and thus obviously weakens the impact of a). So in my eyes, it is rather obvious that milling decks will have a harder time in a meta with Undead than in one without it.

For the Wood Elves, the effect is certainly less strong and might not be important at all if they turn out to be still too weak to make tournament grade. But it goes like this: with Wildwood Grove and cards like Abandoned Mine, Long Winter and Pageant of Strikes, you can recycle cards from the discard to your hand, so the effect of b) is diminished. You can also put Ambush cards directly where you need them: as developments on the table. There is no direct mitigation of a), admittedly, except that you might need less card draws when you can play devs from discard. Going out on a rather speculative branch, a deck that treats its developments as a second hand (with the cards mentioned above) can afford to be bigger than 50 cards, which would also be bad news for mill decks.

To summarize: Undead are clearly more impervious to mill decks, Wood Elves might be. The first statement can be made wihout tests, and the second is not much of a statement, really

Can you post examples of cards which played using Necromancy would threaten DE capital board?

About Wildwood Grove: I was assuming you would say Long Winter, Pageant of Shrikes. Abandonde Mine is too expensive to be tournament viable. Let's say every turn with Crone deck you're loosing at least 2 cards. One can be recovered using Grove and Long Winter at the cost of the card from hand. Playing Pageant on yourself costs you a card and resources also you have to return 3 developments if the DE player isn't playing any.

@Virgo:

DE might have had an advantage over Orcs which could be the reason not many Orcs won your tournaments although you had plenty in the tops. But i think after this FAQ it will still be a pain to play against Wurrzag for all other races. I came to sense that it is not healthy to have mass Invasions and being able to clear them at any time. It might be a problem of balance but it is maybe more a problem for the game feeling and fun. Of course at the same time you don't want to effectively ban Snotling Invasion. We will see what polish meta will be like after your faq goes official. Iam very curious

Cards should of course only be altered in order to lower complexity in the faq. For example: If one simple alteration does free 2 cards from the list it might be a great deal.

Yes, i think Chaos is slow! With one of my DE decks but also with one of my Orc decks it was no problem to beat down Chaos multiple times in tournaments and in casual. And i think that the Dwarves or even the Empire is not that easy to beat! But this is only my opinion. Metas are different.

I did not win against Gardine, but my final opponent did The Orcs destroyed each other. Most of the time i thought that Orcs would win against my deck if they are starting the game. But i started in the final of german championship and it went 2:1 in my favour. Gardine started at worlds against me and won 2:1...

Yes, i would like to stay in touch. I can speak for a small group of players from germany when i say that we would like to work together with the polish comunity on the development of the faq and the future of WHI

1 Yeah, Orcs and DE could beat chaos, but it doesn't mean chaos is slow

2 Actually dwarfs are listed as second best now by some players

As a funny conclusion to this thread (this will be my last post here, anyway), here are some results from the Polish Regional at Cracow this weekend, using the carefully balanced FAQ 3.0:

With 39 player, the best of 3 Dark Elven decks ended at place 21. The worst of 8 Skaven decks ended at place 14. The winning deck was Skaven, and the winner was ... (drum roll) ... Virgo!

Mission accomplished, I'd say.

If these results are correct, this is a very, very bad sign. Not sure it is an indictment of the FAQ though.

As a funny conclusion to this thread (this will be my last post here, anyway), here are some results from the Polish Regional at Cracow this weekend, using the carefully balanced FAQ 3.0:

With 39 player, the best of 3 Dark Elven decks ended at place 21. The worst of 8 Skaven decks ended at place 14. The winning deck was Skaven, and the winner was ... (drum roll) ... Virgo!

Mission accomplished, I'd say.

Yep, Skaven are tournament viable (albeit the card pool is limited and the race is one trick pony - rush) unlike other neutral factions. Maybe with addition of some new cards in the future...time will tell

Yeahhhhh.....it doesn't look too great when the person in charge of changing and updating the rules is also winning torneys based on those rules changes. Appearances.

Yeahhhhh.....it doesn't look too great when the person in charge of changing and updating the rules is also winning torneys based on those rules changes. Appearances.

That is why we are running the official 2.2 at our event.

Yeahhhhh.....it doesn't look too great when the person in charge of changing and updating the rules is also winning torneys based on those rules changes. Appearances.

I'm not "in charge" of the rules changes, but ok. Second and third place (Wurrzag and Dwarf decks) were albo members of the FAQ team, most of the team are just very good players who usually rank up high. I'm the one with more luck than skills Although on the regional tournament before in Gdańsk I was fifth with Wurrzag deck

I am glad that the Polish FAQ has worked out for you chaps.

The rest of the polish community outside the FAQ members group must be thrilled to have you guys state what card/rule changes you come up with

FAQ team was chosen by representatives of the cities with highest players population. It's not like we appointed ourselves or something. Here are the results:

1. Virgo - Skven
2. Stach - Orc
3. Drumdar - Dwarf
4. Raskoks - Skaven
5. SOS - Chaos
6. Germanus - Orc
7. Keil - Dwarf
8. Przemo - Empire

Funny thing is if I haven't won Wurrzag would have and it would be like: oh noes, orcs are too powerful, they didn't nerf them, if the dwarfes have won: I knew they will be the strongest now after DE nerf etc.

The only races not in the top8 are: DE and HE. Only three people decided to take both DE and HE and that may be the factor why they weren't present (also if most of the top players took orc, dwarf or skaven it's no wonder that there are 2 of each in top8).

Just to let you know, this is the official response did to french translaters who saw that a part was missing in the text of clanrat clawleader :

Clanrat clawleader should say : "put into play from your hand as an attacker"

I am glad that the Polish FAQ has worked out for you chaps.

The rest of the polish community outside the FAQ members group must be thrilled to have you guys state what card/rule changes you come up with

Actually we're pretty happy with that faq, and the work guys put in it. They're not self appointed Chosen ones - they're representatives of most important gaming centres. So i would appreciated if you stop bullsh&^& with that "good for you" stuff - it is offensive for whole community:/

At least we're not giving up, and we try to keep the game alive and enjoy it for as long as we can.

Just to let you know, this is the official response did to french translaters who saw that a part was missing in the text of clanrat clawleader :

Clanrat clawleader should say : "put into play from your hand as an attacker"

I do agree that that should be actual wording on this card. Maybe we will see it soon enough. Btw it's a shame that ffg couldn't come up with the Faq for the product they're selling, correcting mistakes they've made. It is just a sloppy work.

I was in Krakow last weekend, and I can assure you that the final could look different if not for some badluck at crucial moments.

As for DE & HE - Therre were just too few experienced players running this decks on Saturday to accomplish sth significant. With the TOP8 after the swiss rounds - it wasn't easy to get through.

The only races not in the top8 are: DE and HE.

There were none of Undead, WE & LIzardmen as well. - as they were not represented t the tournament.

As for Top8 - it's not a matter of races - it is a matter of players - not one of finalists was there by accident. All of them are experienced and accomplished WHI players. It is, after all, not a car, but the driver that matters.

I am glad that the Polish FAQ has worked out for you chaps.

The rest of the polish community outside the FAQ members group must be thrilled to have you guys state what card/rule changes you come up with

Actually we're pretty happy with that faq, and the work guys put in it. They're not self appointed Chosen ones - they're representatives of most important gaming centres. So i would appreciated if you stop bullsh&^& with that "good for you" stuff - it is offensive for whole community:/

At least we're not giving up, and we try to keep the game alive and enjoy it for as long as we can.

I think you are taking my words a little too serious and glad you are happy with it. It was more of an amusing comment though apologies if you have taken it the wrong way.

Similar to others viewing the results, it simply raises a smile on my face on a Monday morning.

Our community are fine (and happy) using the current OFFICIAL FAQ.

We have read the Polish FAQ though it doesn't matter as we don't feel the need to use it (sorry as we feel we are missing out on nothing).

We are also keeping the game alive in our own way, and although we don't have the same numbers as the Polish community doesn't mean we care less about the game than you.

"I think you are taking my words a little too serious and glad you are happy with it. It was more of an amusing comment though apologies if you have taken it the wrong way."

Yep, perhaps I did, but anyway no apologies are necessary.

Glad that's cleared up.

Having that said - i do believe that memebers of particular community know what are the strong/weak links in "Invasion chain" in their metas - so if the game is "broken" from our perspectibve, and publisher cannot come up with the solution - should we do nothing about it and ruin the experience?

We should.

@ rodzyn

French translators didnt fix clawleader by themselves, they have asked to FFG. So it's official that you should read : "Put into play from your hand"

That's even better.

But still they (FFG) should come up with the official FAQ instead of doing nothing in that area. Even few posts on official FFG forum would do, wouldn't it?

Hi,

i think that in Cracov was so many Skaven because:

- this is best new faction, and players want to play something new

- in FAQ 3.0 (pl) DE are not so good and that means that is good time to rush decks

As for desertion: Yeah, for the neutral factions, that's a hard one. The question is, if players want to include this card for 4 of 10 matchups. So I'm not sure if it's too good at the moment. But I agree, that it is a card that has to be observed in next time.

Personally I think, that Paranoia is even more important to change due to the neutral factions. That card can be good against standard races too and is a 1 cost kill for any unit in a neutral deck.

Desertion is a hard one, and that's good, I feel. Play some games against Undead opening with Drakenhof Castle (or worse, Remote Monastery) in Kingdom and Vlad in the next turn. This is already pretty strong, and once Undead players have a bit more experience and tuned their decks, we'll be happy to have a silver bullet against this setup.

And what about that : "Limited. Action : Each player chooses and sacrifices a neutral card he controls that does not share the racial affiliation of its controller's capital (you choose first)" ?

1) It still kills villages, Remote monastery, artefacts, heroic task, etc...

2) Its not like : you play a support ? I kill it for 1. A unit ? I kill it for 1.

3) It becomes better against Skaven, the only neutral faction who doesn't care about desertion, because of 6 0-cost units in every deck.

4) Neutral factions can play desertion !

5) Come on, for the fluff !

I did not plan to post in this thread again, but a direct question is a good excuse to forget about that plan

Your proposal for a changed Desertion looks good, but I would prefer to play the game for some time to determine whether that change is really necessary. As far as I know, Desertion was not played a lot at tournaments so far (in spite of worthwhile targets like Blood Dragon Knights and the Artefacts), so let's give the new meta some time to adjust to the Hidden Kingdoms content.

From my point of view, the real potential for fun decks with the new neutral factions lies in mixing them up with the core factions, and that has not really been explored so far. Maybe some of these fun decks will turn out to be very powerful (judging from experience, those certainly won't be my own decks...), and that's when I would start to consider changing Desertion.

Until then, let's be players, not developers. If I had to run a tournament right now, in addition to I'd just nerf the unfun combos (i.e. limit on Barbed Snares, Chaos only for Summons) and see what happens.