In our games, no one plays a priest, commisar or Engineseers. why? We all know our GM prefers it that way, basically. He likes the idea of priests and "political officers" being NPC's that he can use to direct us and put them above the guardsmen. If PC's played them, there would be the danger of comraderie, and well we just can't have that in the IG.

Anyway, we're all actually okay with this, it gives us Guardsman classes someone to be wary of even in down time and sets a precedent that there are people looming over us that are outside of our own command structure.

It also makes sense to me on many levels. The above mentioned classes don't seem to have the same flexibility as the guardsman classes do.

How do you guys run it?

I'd be grumpy having to play a Guardsman when there is a perfectly good Psyker to run, but that's just me. For the Commissars and AdMech, at least, I can see that. The AdMech is partly because I HATE the idea of not AdMech telling them what to do with their stuff, and also partly the frequency of "my friends and I are starting a game of _____, and we know next to nothing about the setting." Being rather in on the fluff, I get irritable when other people play their stuff "wrong", and Tech-Priests could easily be a good example. If you don't act reverent of the machines, if also a bit in the dark, yourself, you're doing it wrong. Having a player play the TP like an Operator doesn't do it, for me, and my friends often have trouble embracing the mandatory religious aspects of several games, so they might fail to AdMech up their Enginseer. For Commissars, it's purely the Commissar vs. Sergent possible power struggle, coupled with the right to cap another player flr "having fun", a long list of activities that players might find fun, but a hardliner traditionalist 40K fan would see as inappropriate, and bolter them to the face.

Priests and the rest I mind much less. They have some of the same mandatory religion, but they won't shoot you on spot for slight infractions. Take them or leave them. If I were in a game, I'm pretty sure my hierarchy of class would be Psyker --> Tech-Priest (I feel I do know enough well enough) --> Sergent (not sure why; my leading skills are so-so) --> Heavy, and then on down the rest, if it somehow proved necessary.

Given my preference; My players typically form their "Core" Pc's from the guardsman classes. Specialists are typically "guest" characters that only make an appearance when their specific skill set is needed. The IG is notorious for not wanting to "Waste" rare resources (Such as the various specialists) on wandering around with a squad unless they are needed!

Enginseers would be with a squad during a mission where his skills or presence would be required instead of being permanently attached to them; his place is with the vehicles and machines of the Regiment; perhaps if they are a mechanized regiment, then they might be in the chimera that happens to haul the TP around, or a tank regiment, well he's got more of a reason to be in the tank, as it could be an ancient tank, or one with a feisty machine spirit.

Priest well, to me they seems out of place, again being there for a one-shot moment, like a major assault, defense or whatever, not send 200 km to check why company B haven't responded to their vox yet (and even then, he might just hitch a ride as his station is with that company). short of a Religious inclined Regiment, they may be out of place, short of a NPC at camp, like the Padre or the confessor.

Commissar on the other hand, have all the right and reason to be present with a squad; they are where the action is, and they got to make sure the orders are done. The problem is people see them as commanders instead of what they are overpowered bureaucrats. They are not here to take over the leadership role, but to act as counsel, and to remember the Sgt and the squad that their mission must be completed. Of course if you stick with the single-minded image of them, they'll start shooting the squad members at the slightest hesitation, not seeing the tactical aspect. A squad of light infantry on a S&D patrol suddenly facing off 15 tanks that came out of nowhere? Retreat is unacceptable true, but the squad is not equipped nor capable of winning this encounter, and while a Commissar can shoot a few squad members, that will not suddenly make meltaguns and krak grenades appear from thin air. not to mention staying will only means the squad gets all killed (with the Commissar) with nothing gained...but he will make a complete report about this and will point out that the Squad should have thought of a plan in case of armoured encounter.

It's said in the OW book (If my memory serves me right) that they'll follow the Sgt's lead, he would know how to lead and order his peer form his own world around (due to the multitude of different origins, customs and fighting tactics within the Guard), questioning, scrutinizing....but you turn around and run then it's #BLAM#. They also write that each Commissar had some time served as a Storm Trooper, so they're not stupidly single minded as much as other sources would indicate. Zealous yes, but they are well taught in the Schola Progenium that even they can see when moving away is better in the overall strategy.

Double post

While fleeing a battle is cowardice, a tactical withdrawal is not! A recon unit cannot do it's job if it's expected to engage every enemy it encounters! Even Space marines don't do that! A Commissar would certainly understand the realities of warfare IMHO. They are after all, students of the tactica Imperialis! A recon elements job is to provide information on enemy strengths and position. Not necessarily to engage in a suicidal attack!

In reference to my earlier post: The most likely reason in my game that a Commisar would take an interest in a squad would be if they are going to be on an extended "Detached duty" mission from the regiment. (Behind enemy lines kind of thing.) The other reason is if the Squad during the campaign had a history of "Questionable" actions. In either case; Once the mission was over or the investigation completed the Commissar would wander off back to regimental command to do whatever Commissars do when they're not harassing "Honest Guardsmen".

My feelings about specialist classes like commissars are generally negative (as has been discussed ad nauseum in that thread awhile ago). Other specialist classes however I have generally found to be not that bad (except abhumans) provided the players can give a good reason why a psyker/techpriest/preist/stormtrooper is accompanying them.

Seems sort of sad to have to be able to "give a good reason" for a base character type from the book to be the character I wanted to play; possibly a small failing in OW that the other games don't share. In DH, an Inquisitor found my Psyker, your Scum, and John's Arbites, added them to his coterie of Acolytes, and sent us on missions. In RT, the Lord-Captain often takes her chief Explorator, Astropath, Arch-Militant, and even a Navigator down to the surface of that planet, just in case they run into something fishy. In DW, the Watch Captain sends the Librarian and the Techmarine along, and they are still Astartes, so it doesn't seem to fit weird. Then we get to OW, where "regular" Psykers and Enginseers aren't often with Infantry Squads, while Ratlings and Ogryns are their own. Regualr military roles and rules apply, and most Officers don't seem to "cherry pick" spefic soldiers together, into their elite action squad. I'm not sure what they might've done, with the fluff being what it is, but they could've maybe done more to deal with how some "extras" are permanently with a squad, as even a mission-by-mission basis is weak. It's another reason I could see me having the characters be picked by an Inquisitor, and given numerous jobs, as a unit, by him or her. Oh well, maybe I'm reading too much into this. Were I playing Only War, I'd do like every other game with a character type my GM wants to make me jump through hoops to allow me to play it, and I'll build a decent Psyker, AND an in-depth backstory for him, explaining why he works; it's how I game, and if it can manage in D&D AND WoT d20, this wouldn't be too much harder.

I can see Priests and Engineseers assigned to the group much of the time, I like Psykers, so I'd make an excuse, and the others can be a bit a stretch. If I can get someone to understand what a Commissar is, what they CAN do, AND what they SHOULD do, that can be a fine addition; they and Priests are SUPPOSED to make sense in most squads. Stormtroopers and Abhumans? Not as easy a fit for me.

Seems sort of sad to have to be able to "give a good reason" for a base character type from the book to be the character I wanted to play; possibly a small failing in OW that the other games don't share. In DH, an Inquisitor found my Psyker, your Scum, and John's Arbites, added them to his coterie of Acolytes, and sent us on missions. In RT, the Lord-Captain often takes her chief Explorator, Astropath, Arch-Militant, and even a Navigator down to the surface of that planet, just in case they run into something fishy. In DW, the Watch Captain sends the Librarian and the Techmarine along, and they are still Astartes, so it doesn't seem to fit weird. Then we get to OW, where "regular" Psykers and Enginseers aren't often with Infantry Squads, while Ratlings and Ogryns are their own. Regualr military roles and rules apply, and most Officers don't seem to "cherry pick" spefic soldiers together, into their elite action squad. I'm not sure what they might've done, with the fluff being what it is, but they could've maybe done more to deal with how some "extras" are permanently with a squad, as even a mission-by-mission basis is weak. It's another reason I could see me having the characters be picked by an Inquisitor, and given numerous jobs, as a unit, by him or her. Oh well, maybe I'm reading too much into this. Were I playing Only War, I'd do like every other game with a character type my GM wants to make me jump through hoops to allow me to play it, and I'll build a decent Psyker, AND an in-depth backstory for him, explaining why he works; it's how I game, and if it can manage in D&D AND WoT d20, this wouldn't be too much harder.

I can see Priests and Engineseers assigned to the group much of the time, I like Psykers, so I'd make an excuse, and the others can be a bit a stretch. If I can get someone to understand what a Commissar is, what they CAN do, AND what they SHOULD do, that can be a fine addition; they and Priests are SUPPOSED to make sense in most squads. Stormtroopers and Abhumans? Not as easy a fit for me.

While I sympathize with your point I come at it from a somewhat different angle. When I hear of OW parties consisting of say: A Commissar; a Tech priest; a Psyker and a Stormtrooper (As I've seen mentioned on the forums) THAT doesn't feel to me as if you're playing OW at all! You actually nailed it on the head! The Inquisition, Rogue trader and DW are all organizations where a specialist team with diverse skills goes on missions. OW is, not surprisingly a War story! War stories are ultimately about soldiers. While the specialists certainly exist exist they are a rare resource and aren't generally parced out to a single squad permanently. There are of course exceptions (Such as the Squad being a dedicated bodyguard for a specialist.) but these are rare and cause the game to revolve around said specialist.

What I actually do is have each player Roll up a member of the Core squad. Additionally, I allow any of them to roll up one specialist of their choice. (No Duplicates). When a mission comes up that requires said specialist (And I will try to make sure it eventually does.) they have him/her ready. Like you though, I have a harder time with Stormtroopers, Ratlings and Ogryn's since they operate in their own squads. In these cases, If the player's REALLY wanted to play these characters I would just have them ALL create an appropriate squad and run an Individual mission for them. (Sort of like the cutscene games in call of duty).

While I sympathize with your point I come at it from a somewhat different angle. When I hear of OW parties consisting of say: A Commissar; a Tech priest; a Psyker and a Stormtrooper (As I've seen mentioned on the forums) THAT doesn't feel to me as if you're playing OW at all! You actually nailed it on the head! The Inquisition, Rogue trader and DW are all organizations where a specialist team with diverse skills goes on missions. OW is, not surprisingly a War story! War stories are ultimately about soldiers. While the specialists certainly exist exist they are a rare resource and aren't generally parced out to a single squad permanently. There are of course exceptions (Such as the Squad being a dedicated bodyguard for a specialist.) but these are rare and cause the game to revolve around said specialist.

What I actually do is have each player Roll up a member of the Core squad. Additionally, I allow any of them to roll up one specialist of their choice. (No Duplicates). When a mission comes up that requires said specialist (And I will try to make sure it eventually does.) they have him/her ready. Like you though, I have a harder time with Stormtroopers, Ratlings and Ogryn's since they operate in their own squads. In these cases, If the player's REALLY wanted to play these characters I would just have them ALL create an appropriate squad and run an Individual mission for them. (Sort of like the cutscene games in call of duty).

Hmm, I can see that, but I'd still be hard-pressed. Where more of the specialist teams in other games expect to find weird crap, a war story of soldiers often just goes and shoots stuff. Rogue Traders find lost ruins with ancient tech, and Inquisitors investigate them, if they find them first, each bringing their resident AdMech along, but the IG don't, and their Tech-Priests more often fill the role of maintenance of equipment. I still find it hard to envision the episode where the Psyker would get to play. If he's an Astropath, maybe, but the good old battle psyker is for combat, and utility support (which might be the better build). If he had a Hood, he might fend off the Wyrdboyz, Sorcerers, and SD Psykers, but that's hard to plan for. Some of them seem easier to take than the Trooper sniper, a character who has even less reason to be with the group, and will just go off, alone, to snipe key targets while everyone else is a distraction.

Please note, I'm not trying to be adversarial; I just sometimes fail at the finer points of party balance and synchronicity. Also, as a slight twink, I often have my own preferred character types, and it isn't always copacetic with a good team.

I personally am a big fan of the fact that Only War takes all kinds. All rugged soldier-types? Sure thing! Wacky specialists? Awesome! A mix of the two? Don't mind if I do!

I also have no real qualms with a lone Ogryn or Ratling or Stormtrooper with a squad. Once in combat after oh, say, 20 minutes Terran standard most regiments' wonderful little data-slates full of regimental organization are little better than paper-weights given the high rate of attrition and raw insanity of frontline 40k combat. The fact that a given squad is still alive might make them more exceptional than the fact that they have a lone Ogryn who is following them around like a big, adorable, autocannon-toting puppy.

At the end of the day it's your table so make it your 40k. If my players are having fun and I'm having fun, then the real world seems a little less grim dark so I'm all for it.

While I sympathize with your point I come at it from a somewhat different angle. When I hear of OW parties consisting of say: A Commissar; a Tech priest; a Psyker and a Stormtrooper (As I've seen mentioned on the forums) THAT doesn't feel to me as if you're playing OW at all! You actually nailed it on the head! The Inquisition, Rogue trader and DW are all organizations where a specialist team with diverse skills goes on missions. OW is, not surprisingly a War story! War stories are ultimately about soldiers. While the specialists certainly exist exist they are a rare resource and aren't generally parced out to a single squad permanently. There are of course exceptions (Such as the Squad being a dedicated bodyguard for a specialist.) but these are rare and cause the game to revolve around said specialist.

What I actually do is have each player Roll up a member of the Core squad. Additionally, I allow any of them to roll up one specialist of their choice. (No Duplicates). When a mission comes up that requires said specialist (And I will try to make sure it eventually does.) they have him/her ready. Like you though, I have a harder time with Stormtroopers, Ratlings and Ogryn's since they operate in their own squads. In these cases, If the player's REALLY wanted to play these characters I would just have them ALL create an appropriate squad and run an Individual mission for them. (Sort of like the cutscene games in call of duty).

Hmm, I can see that, but I'd still be hard-pressed. Where more of the specialist teams in other games expect to find weird crap, a war story of soldiers often just goes and shoots stuff. Rogue Traders find lost ruins with ancient tech, and Inquisitors investigate them, if they find them first, each bringing their resident AdMech along, but the IG don't, and their Tech-Priests more often fill the role of maintenance of equipment. I still find it hard to envision the episode where the Psyker would get to play. If he's an Astropath, maybe, but the good old battle psyker is for combat, and utility support (which might be the better build). If he had a Hood, he might fend off the Wyrdboyz, Sorcerers, and SD Psykers, but that's hard to plan for. Some of them seem easier to take than the Trooper sniper, a character who has even less reason to be with the group, and will just go off, alone, to snipe key targets while everyone else is a distraction.

Please note, I'm not trying to be adversarial; I just sometimes fail at the finer points of party balance and synchronicity. Also, as a slight twink, I often have my own preferred character types, and it isn't always copacetic with a good team.

I don't think you're being adversarial! I enjoy a good debate! As to your thought; The primary reason I would assign a Psyker on a mission would be if the squad was going against a known 'Morale threat' (Enemy psykers, Sorcerers, daemons, etc). Perhaps it is a known threat because the last squad was anihilated by psychic powers. (Always good news when you're the 'good' men thrown after bad ) It's also possible that your unit will require (Not "want" mind you but "need") the sort of portable artillery a battle psyker represents. Also a "smash and grab" scenario where target in question may need to be rapidly interrogated. (And then possibly disposed of!) My point is that their are numerous missions that might require a specialist. If your squad becomes known for a certain type of mission (Such as the aforementioned "Smash and Grab") than the relevant specialist may become more or less permanently attached to the squad but again, this is not normal.

This also might be a good reason for a character to take the "Commander" Elite advance. Since this is the point where the PC becomes an actual Officer (IMO) this increases the likelihood of requisitioning specialists and at Higher ranks even who it will be! After all; If a PC rises to the point of being an IG Colonel, He will have a great deal of say on what happens within his regiment! (No, you're not Automatically a Colonel for taking the advance but it is hypothetically possible to get there!)

I personally am a big fan of the fact that Only War takes all kinds. All rugged soldier-types? Sure thing! Wacky specialists? Awesome! A mix of the two? Don't mind if I do!

I also have no real qualms with a lone Ogryn or Ratling or Stormtrooper with a squad. Once in combat after oh, say, 20 minutes Terran standard most regiments' wonderful little data-slates full of regimental organization are little better than paper-weights given the high rate of attrition and raw insanity of frontline 40k combat. The fact that a given squad is still alive might make them more exceptional than the fact that they have a lone Ogryn who is following them around like a big, adorable, autocannon-toting puppy.

At the end of the day it's your table so make it your 40k. If my players are having fun and I'm having fun, then the real world seems a little less grim dark so I'm all for it.

I gotta admit, I agree with everything you say but; I wouldn't want to be the Huge autocannon toting, adorable puppy in any game I or any of the Gm's I have played with are in. The reason for that is simple: I would be a bullet sponge!

Excellent discussion going on here. Though, the way it's all been worked out so far in our game makes sense for what i originally said.

when we started our game, we had a weapon specialist, medic, heavy and stormtrooper. no one wanted to play a sergeant, commissar or other.

What our GM did is he put my character (the storm trooper) in a storm trooper squad. the others were in their own normal squad. The operation for our Paratrooper regiment was to drop into the capital city of a planet that had fallen out of imperial compliance (ruinous powers abound!). During the drop, i lost a third of my platoon before even disembarking (a valk was shot down) then lost half my squad to flak on the way down, then got separated from the rest during the drop itself. I met up with one guy and we went on to finish our mission of taking the governor's mansion. We came across the other PC's because they dropped too far away from their target, so i conscripted them to tretake the mansion.

After the operation, our regiment CO decided we'd lost too many storm troopers so he reorganized us to being squad sergeants. So suddenly i was a squad leader via field promotion.

In this, he kept us from having an NPC sergeant and our next mission had an Engineseer attached to us as we had to retake a prometheum refinery and we needed him to talk to the congnigator that ran the place.

Our only interaction with commissars have been one guy getting an explosive collar attached to him for disobeying MP's and another guy flogged for failing a scavenging roll.

Basically, our GM does it all very well. he doesn't lord the specialists over us, he just has them to their actual jobs.

I might note that your squad is missing a LOT by not having a Sergeant. Their ability to buff the squad's damage and deploy comrades is not to be ignored. While the way the Gm handled it seems perfectly valid, I would consider rolling up a Sergeant and having him transfer in now that you understand the roll. If I were the Gm I would allow you to keep your experience total as a "boone" for playing ball with the Gm (Me). This would allow you to get an actual dedicated Squad leader for your group and I think you'll like the results! Having said all that there's nothing wrong with the way your Gm handled it. "If you like your game you can keep it...Period!"

I only allow the the basic specialists in my game...I've played a more mixed game and it did not have the feel of a band of brothers

Well, the GM did allow me to purchase the two basic sergeant talents, but i never got around to it. (honestly, my fellowship wasn't cheap and was sitting at a 27%...quite a hole to dig yourself out of)

Eventually we did switch up our squad to have a scout (former weapon specialist), brawler (former sergeant), operator, medic and heavy.

Our group found the simplest solution to this issue of why such a mix of abhumans and specialists would be deployed was playing a penal unit plucked from a military prison for low survivability missons, on the war world of Kuluth.

It didn`t matter what spec we picked, we were all criminals. A sticky fingered gang/unit formed from a socioathic prison medic who amputated limbs to sellthe meat for food, an Ogryn stim addict who kills to feed his habit, a stormtrooper drill sergeant suffering a nervous breakdown after his unit was annihilated even our Commissar had been sent there as a punishment for executing one too many officers without sufficient evidence.

Also as a band of ill-favoured rogues we get to experience he gritty underbelly of guard life, suffering low-priority on our requisitions, contempt from superiors and inter-regiment rivalries (particularly with the Mordian 12th armoured who lost a consignment of replacement gear via our policy of "aggressive sharing" on route to deployment.)

That's almost like our story, Askil. Ours is technically a penal regiment as well, though none of us see it that way. So naturally when people look down on us, half their stuff goes missing. We're all proud Landrians, even if we are from a prison hive. We have quite the rivalry with the 86th Malfean (i probably spelled that wrong) Mechanized, The Dark Jesters. They're all minor nobles and think we're scum. It's good fun.

Unfortunately my group built the regiment when I was at home looking after a pair of sickies, and I'm pretty sure they applied almost no prior reading to the process.

The bought autoguns as the regiments preferred basic (so mechanically we have to choose to either be able to use our main or sidearm at starting as they don't share a training talent) they also chose a regiment type that comes with a vehicle then made no operators.

They really didn't grasp that most penal units are like mobile prisons, run by overseers, led by guards and suffering stricter application of the rules than normal regiments.

They have embraced a setup more like a sprawling criminal gang (rather like I imagine the necromundan spiders must have) commanded by the scariest guy from the prison, the innovatively named bilious commander: Bill Eous and run by his chosen favorites. Like our squad NCO who has his friend "Tiny" the ogryn to back him up if anyone takes issue with their orders.