My take on the Missile Boat- one of the defining elements is that it has massive missile reserves, but only carries two types of warheads.

A1 D2 H3 S4 Target Lock, Focus. Single Missile slot, single Torpedo slot.

SLAM system: Action- may make a straight move speed 1-5, but may not make a primary weapon attack this turn.

Dual Warhead launchers- When firing a missile or torpedo secondary weapon, it is not discarded when used.

The only reason it is "crazy" is because the Primary Weapon on a Missile Boat is its missile launchers and it "secondary" weapon is the punny laser cannon added for those rare times it has run out of missiles or has all the time in the world to destroy the target. I'd say the bigger "problem" with doing this that way is you are mostly excluding other ordnance when the missile boat could carry two different types at a time even in the video games. Leaving the TL off the card also wouldn't prevent the ship from getting them either via the upcoming upgrade card or using a Fire-Control system in that system upgrade slot.

What is so wrong with something "simple" aside from it possibly going on a TIE Advanced/Bomber or A-Wing?

Missile Launcher (7)

Attack (target lock): Spend your TL to perform this attack. You may change one blank result to a [focus] result. Attack Value: 4. Range: 2-3

It's not quite "infinite" concussion missiles but it may be close. Getting the third shot with this isn't as likely as getting three shots with a HLC due to the TL restrictions but the two would certainly be similar. If you alter the range to 1-3 drop any dice manipulation but I'd keep the minimum range of this at 2 which makes some room for range 1 ordnance to be carried on certain ships.

If they want to keep target lock by spending points and opportunity cost on upgrades past this point then they are free to do so but just leaving it off to assume they are always doing it works for flavor and for mechanics it doesn't make this ship a super, I can do anything ship. Just a little debuff.

I'm thinking your example that takes up 2 ordnance slots is not a terrible idea and would keep it off of swings at least and not require a cannon slot or new weapon slot. If going with the assumed 4 missile/torp slots you can carry 2 other flavors for diversity.

If my suggestion was used but also used TWO missile slots keeping it away from the A's I may favor a slight improvement (blank to focus AND range 1-3) but I still wouldn't put more than three of any one type of missile/torp slot on a ship. As I was seeing it the "ideal" setup would have been one of those missile launchers to cover the long range effects, a targeting computer so you could keep pouring in the fire, and probably a cluster missile and/or Advanced Proton Torpedo for someone foolish enough to slip in close to avoid the long range pounding.

I know I've thought that the Missile Boat could actually have 3 defense dice but not go too high on the hull/shields. That "extra" die would help differentiate it from the T/B and can help represent the ship's extreme speed and from what I recall relatively good maneuverability. The high speed may have made full turns hard but it could sure jinx quickly.

All missiles and torpedoes have unlimited use, but cost 3 points more each.

8 point Assault Missile with unlimited use? It's expensive but could be well worth it. Just like the Heavy Laser Cannon at 7 points.

Advanced Concussion Missiles

Attack [Target Lock]: Spend your Target Lock and discard this card to perform this attack. You may change 1 of your blank results and 1 of your results to a result. Attack value: 4. Range: 2-3.

Is this worth 5 or 6 points?

Advanced Concussion Missiles

Attack [Target Lock]: Spend your Target Lock and discard this card to perform this attack. You may change 1 of your blank results and 1 of your results to a result. Attack value: 4. Range: 2-3.

Is this worth 5 or 6 points?

Maybe 5 points but I'm not sold on that unless one believes that a regular Concussion Missile's 4 points is a bargain. It's certainly better than a normal CM and theoretically should provide one more hit each time it is used as one die should turn up blank and another on focus. I guess if we based the "value" of turning a focus into a hit that would be 2 points for the difference between Luke and a Gunner but that can also be used multiple times.

So 6 points is too much but because it is strictly better than a Concussion Missile at 4 points that leaves 5 points as the target number.

In all of the discussion on an "infinite" missile system I have a related question: How often does your HLC equipped ship get to use it? The follow up is "How often would you us it if you had to spend a TL each time you did?"

For the Missile boat itself, I would give it the following:

1/2/3/4, for the same reasons specified above

Target Lock, Boost, Focus

Likely priced at 13 or 14 points for a PS2 (with only 1 primary attack, you're not going to spam these without missiles, so the lower price makes sense)

1 System upgrade slot (Ideally for Fire Control Systems to help keep the target locks in play)

4x Missile Slots (for reasons specified below)

I would then create the following card (rough wording since I'm knocking this out quick):

Expanded Missile Bays

1x Missile Icon, 5 points

Add 3x Missile tokens to each missile equipped on this ship. Instead of discarding the missile card when firing the missile, discard a token instead. When the last token has been removed from the card, Discard the missile card.

I'm aware that a bomber would always take this instead of taking 2 of the same missile, but I think that would be OK if the bomber was ok with using the same missiles. Advanced and A-Wings would be able to equip the card, but it wouldn't be any use since they couldn't also fit a missile. The missile boat could fit a combination of Homing, Cluster, and Concussion Missiles (All 3 if they want) along with 3 shots each, for the low price of extra 5 points. With Fire Control System and Homing missiles, you shouldn't have to worry about losing target locks, and you'll be able to fire missiles at any range if you also include cluster missiles.

Finally, I'd create an upgrade card called SLAM

SLAM, Imperial Only : 4 points. When you make a boost action, you may reduce your primary weapon to 0 and take a second boost action.

The only ships this could be included on would be ships with the boost action since you can't have 2 upgrades, and the Interceptor likely wouldn't be too interested in reducing its attack to 0 for a second boost and a cost of 4 points.

I'd start with this for the Missile Boat and then playtest and tweak from there.

Advanced Concussion Missiles

Attack [Target Lock]: Spend your Target Lock and discard this card to perform this attack. You may change 1 of your blank results and 1 of your results to a result. Attack value: 4. Range: 2-3.

Is this worth 5 or 6 points?

Probably 5, possibly 6. It's like the poor's man's excuse for PtL. PtL will always be better at 3 points even for just one shot, let alone the recurring ability to take 2x actions.

I like the idea that advanced Concussion missiles should be a "counter" to higher agility ships somehow, not just by brute forcing adding more hit chances.

Advanced Concussion Missiles (6 Points)

Attack [Target Lock]: Spend your Target Lock and discard this card to perform this attack. You may change 1 of your blank results and 1 of your results to a result. Attack value: 4. Range: 1-3.

Changed range to 1-3. Would this be too overwhelming?

MJ, would you please check the chances to score 4 hits without the use of focus?

Heavy Rockets (6 Points)

Attack [Target Lock]: Spend your Target Lock and discard this card to perform this attack. You may reroll 2 of your blank results. Attack value: 6. Range: 2.

Heavy Rockets were used to attack capital ships and space stations.

Advanced Concussion Missiles

Attack [Target Lock]: Spend your Target Lock and discard this card to perform this attack. You may change 1 of your blank results and 1 of your results to a result. Attack value: 4. Range: 2-3.

Is this worth 5 or 6 points?

Probably 5, possibly 6. It's like the poor's man's excuse for PtL. PtL will always be better at 3 points even for just one shot, let alone the recurring ability to take 2x actions.

I like the idea that advanced Concussion missiles should be a "counter" to higher agility ships somehow, not just by brute forcing adding more hit chances.

The poor man hasn't access to PtL. So this IS the counter for the more advanced spaceships, by enhancing the hit chances without the need to focus.

small change on the Heavy Rockets:

Heavy Rockets (6 Points)

Attack [Target Lock]: Spend your Target Lock and discard this card to perform this attack. You may reroll 3 dice.

Attack value: 6. Range: 2.

I always figured that since heavy rockets are supposed to be used against large ships, it would be something like this:

Heavy Rockets (6 Points)

Attack [Target Lock]: Spend your Target Lock and discard this card to perform this attack. You may reroll 2 attack dice. Your opponent may reroll *blanks* and may change *eyeballs* to *evade*.

Attack Value: 6. Range 1-2.

With push the limits, its not entirely unreasonable to roll 5 or 6 hits which can one shot pretty much any fighter in the game (Several imperial fighters can't survive if you roll 6 hits and they don't have an evade token). My variation, however, allows you to deal heavy damage to low evade ships while pretty much guaranteeing that fighters will survive (though they will probably still take damage based on sheer number of hits alone). Don't forget some of the ugly stacking that can go on too - PtL Green Squadrons with Jan Ors are silly enough being able to have the possibility to stack up 7 hits, or squad leadered bombers w/ Jonus rerolling 4 blanks + having a focus to almost ensure 6 hits. Given that you might (probably?) want to reduce it to Attack Value 5 anyway.

Advanced Concussion Missiles (6 Points)

Attack [Target Lock]: Spend your Target Lock and discard this card to perform this attack. You may change 1 of your blank results and 1 of your results to a result. Attack value: 4. Range: 1-3.

Changed range to 1-3. Would this be too overwhelming?

MJ, would you please check the chances to score 4 hits without the use of focus?

Heavy Rockets (6 Points)

Attack [Target Lock]: Spend your Target Lock and discard this card to perform this attack. You may reroll 2 of your blank results. Attack value: 6. Range: 2.

Heavy Rockets were used to attack capital ships and space stations.

Calculating hits for Advanced Concussion Missiles as wrote is easy, works out to:

0 hits 1+ hit 2+ hits 3+ hits 4 hits avg

0.39% 99.61% 90.625% 59.375% 18.75% 2.68 4 dice + 1 blank to hit

0% 100% 99.22% 87.5% 50% 3.37 4 dice + 1 blank to hit, 1 focus to hit

0% 100 % 99.61% 94.92% 73.83% 3.68 4 dice + 1 blank to hit, focus

I don't have the hooks in my scripts yet to account for rerolls if they are blanks, to calculate heavy rockets. Will update when I get around to it.

So, 50% chance of getting 4 hits ... thats about what I intended to archive. Thx, MJ ^^

Advanced Concussions were faster, harder to shake and more devastating - they tend to hit even if fired in a furry furball.

I always figured that since heavy rockets are supposed to be used against large ships, it would be something like this:

Heavy Rockets (6 Points)

Attack [Target Lock]: Spend your Target Lock and discard this card to perform this attack. You may reroll 2 attack dice. Your opponent may reroll *blanks* and may change *eyeballs* to *evade*.

Attack Value: 6. Range 1-2.

With push the limits, its not entirely unreasonable to roll 5 or 6 hits which can one shot pretty much any fighter in the game (Several imperial fighters can't survive if you roll 6 hits and they don't have an evade token). My variation, however, allows you to deal heavy damage to low evade ships while pretty much guaranteeing that fighters will survive (though they will probably still take damage based on sheer number of hits alone). Don't forget some of the ugly stacking that can go on too - PtL Green Squadrons with Jan Ors are silly enough being able to have the possibility to stack up 7 hits, or squad leadered bombers w/ Jonus rerolling 4 blanks + having a focus to almost ensure 6 hits. Given that you might (probably?) want to reduce it to Attack Value 5 anyway.

Interesting thought. The system has its troubles to picture hard-hitting warheads, that are actually easy to evade, if you have a small ship. The same would go for Turbolaser Turrets - almost impossible for them to hit a small ship, but if the hit, this ship is toast. I'm very curious about FFG solved this - hence the CR90 has several Turbolasers.

Basically the Heavy Rocket could also be threaded like a 'Turbolaser Shot'

With the ATP FFG was faced with a similar problem, and it was solved by reducing the range to 1 ... and this reflects the difficulty to use it (against starfighters ... but shuttles, too)

So my idea was to increase the max damage output, since the rockets were more devastating, subtracted the 'auto-hit ability' and reduce the range to 2 only - to add a different challenge compared the the ATP.

Somehow I don't like the idea of giving the target ship even more chances to evade then like 'normal' - but I'm fine with adding a rule like 'You can't use focus if your target is a small ship' and I think this would be even easier to understand and implement.

For the slam I would do something like a white 5 Kturn (but keeping the 4 straight red) in order to simulate the Tie-Fighter game jousting tactic of SLAMing after you passed your target flipping around and launching more missiles.

So all in favor of 1 firepower now question is how many missile upgrade slots, 3 or 4?

(necroed thread due to similar post on the front page.)

For SLAM, how about...

1. Action: You may make an additional GREEN maneuver. You may not attack this turn.

2. Maneuver Dial:

GREEN- 1, 2, 3 Straight; 2 Bank

WHITE- 4 Straight; 1 Turn; 2 Turn; 3 Bank; 3 Turn

RED- 4 K-Turn; 5 Straight

That way, the thing is reasonably maneuverable (can do pretty much what it wants) and fast (hey, it can do Speed 5... with stress) and it can nearly double its speed with the SLAM action (again, at a cost). Hell, it would even have plenty of green maneuvers to get rid of stress.

As far as being able to create something that replicates the ship's abilities in the game... who says THOSE accurately reflect the REAL thing. A little nerfing goes a long way to make a simple/playable ship that does not succumb to powercreep (something the video game designers didn't give a rat's a$$ about).

ZOMBIE!

Here's an option to represent the missile boat's firepower without spending 999999 points on missiles: a new action!

Reload: restore one of your previously discarded {missile} or {torpedo} weapons.

Fluff-wise the missile boat has a huge cargo of missiles (enough to shoot for a whole game), but only a limited number loaded and ready to fire. To use the rest it has to take a moment to reload the launchers. And then it's up to the player to decide whether to take a single missile and reload it or a diverse load of secondary weapons that it can fire every turn.

That'd work. Rather well, actually.

Here's an option to represent the missile boat's firepower without spending 999999 points on missiles: a new action!

Reload: restore one of your previously discarded {missile} or {torpedo} weapons.

Fluff-wise the missile boat has a huge cargo of missiles (enough to shoot for a whole game), but only a limited number loaded and ready to fire. To use the rest it has to take a moment to reload the launchers. And then it's up to the player to decide whether to take a single missile and reload it or a diverse load of secondary weapons that it can fire every turn.

I would say keep the missile boat cheap. Take a look at Tie Bombers, they are very cheap only 4 more points than a tie fighter for twice as much hull (and less agility and not god dial yada yada but still a deal) Yet Tie bombers are often the most expensive ships in Imperial squadrons. The cost for the tie bomber is not in the ship itself but in its payload.

I was thinking about this for a while...

SLAM: boost action with the 3 speed bank or straight.

Missle racks: do not discard missiles and torpedoes after use.

Slots are: 1 system, 1 missile, 1 torpedo, 1 mod.

Actions: focus, target lock, SLAM.

As far as the dial...

1 white banks

2 green forward

2 white banks

2 red turns

3 green forward

3 green banks

3 green turns

4 green forward

5 green forward

5 white k

Missle racks: do not discard missiles and torpedoes after use.

This is way too good. You need some drawback to infinite missiles or you just made a cheaper and more powerful version of a HLC. That's why I suggested making reloading an action, you have to take a turn between shots so there's still a reason to take cannon ships for consistent damage.

As far as the dial...

And this is just utterly broken. You've got as much green as an a-wing (the best dial in the game) AND a white k-turn (the defender's unique thing). So not only will you be doing more damage than any ship in the game you'll be flying circles around pretty much everything. IOW, you've made a supership with no weaknesses.

I think a reload action would be very simple and a good idea. The only problem is generating sufficient actions to make use of it.

Possibly an auto-include-tied-to-the-ship-type upgrade (like the advanced cloaking device) or 'autoloaders' or something, to give you a free reload action after making a secondary weapon attack?

He's right neither the gunboat or missileboat has the speed or agility to warrant a white kturn, they would have dials like a y-wing or b-wing.

Missle racks: do not discard missiles and torpedoes after use.

This is way too good. You need some drawback to infinite missiles or you just made a cheaper and more powerful version of a HLC. That's why I suggested making reloading an action, you have to take a turn between shots so there's still a reason to take cannon ships for consistent damage.

As far as the dial...

And this is just utterly broken. You've got as much green as an a-wing (the best dial in the game) AND a white k-turn (the defender's unique thing). So not only will you be doing more damage than any ship in the game you'll be flying circles around pretty much everything. IOW, you've made a supership with no weaknesses.

It was made to shoot down Defenders. That's its entire purpose in life. You balance it with a point cost starting around 42 for a ps3 pilot, and it goes up from there.

Also they're not really cheaper HLCs, you still often have to spend TL or Focus to shoot. Concussion Missiles + APTs would be a good combo at 10 pts, but you're spending TL to shoot, which means spending an action.

I'm not married to the dial to be honest, I would probably change the turns to white.

And the missile boat "not having the speed" is a hilarious argument.