Old Grognard say: Sometimes read rule before moving heavy thing! Maybe help.

Call it willing ignorance because of my ingrained hatred for the aptitude system. Still, entirely my fault.

I still don't think the Quick Draw talent should be a thing, but that's largely because I hate the idea of talents which render you utterly immune to mechanics. It's the same reason I thought Cold Hearted in the original beta was one of the worst talents ever to grace the system.

I think a lot of my misgivings with the Quick Draw talent are that, in my experience, everyone tries to get it within the first few sessions' worth of experience, because it's just a pain not to have it. Which makes me think that either the talent should be removed, or ready actions should be granted by default. Or, I guess, its cost should be increased. Choices that are pretty much 'must haves' are barely choices in the first place.

Let's examine this for a moment. Quickdraw like any other talent has governing aptitudes; They are agility and Finesse. The Minimum cost for a character with both aptitudes is 200xp (not 100). For a character that has neither (Which is very possible with the aforementioned sage) the cost goes up to 600xp! That means if your Sage is Hellbent on getting quickdraw he will spend most or all of his XP from as many as THREE game sessions getting it! That's as many as SIX new lore skills he WON'T be getting! I'd say the cost is plenty steep enough for a traditional non-combatant! I still believe it should be divided up by weapon type but that's just me!

I'd like to point out I mentioned this 3 pages ago and no one said anything.

Call it willing ignorance because of my ingrained hatred for the aptitude system. Still, entirely my fault.

I still don't think the Quick Draw talent should be a thing, but that's largely because I hate the idea of talents which render you utterly immune to mechanics. It's the same reason I thought Cold Hearted in the original beta was one of the worst talents ever to grace the system.

Except that you've been arguing for the removal of the mechanic. Which is basically giving everyone quickdraw. Rather than removing quickdraw and making everyone take a ready action.

I agree about cold hearted/fearless/the current incarnation of jaded though. These things really take the horror out of a horror game, but I don't think we can cross examine them because rendering a character immune to the psychology rules is vastly different from a minor combat tweak.

I just find it leaves a bad taste in my mouth that a character can be rendered immune to an entire game mechanic, right out of character generation, with no major negative effects other than missing out on a skill rank or two.

I just find it leaves a bad taste in my mouth that a character can be rendered immune to an entire game mechanic, right out of character generation, with no major negative effects other than missing out on a skill rank or two.

That's not really accurate. It's a game mechanic that demonstrates a particular character ability.

You may as well say Weapon Training and Common Lore render the character 'immune' to those mechanics.

The goal of the mechanics is to render the world in an internally consistent manner: Quick Draw clearly does that. Not everyone is skilled at that. (And there are quick draw competitions in real life.)

Something like "Into the Jaws of Hell" might not , and by that virtue may be considered a poor mechanic.

I just find it leaves a bad taste in my mouth that a character can be rendered immune to an entire game mechanic, right out of character generation, with no major negative effects other than missing out on a skill rank or two.

Again, I find myself agreeing with your sentiments, but while that is annoying, under the Aptitude system, it's by far less of an issue (aforementioned 200xp vs. 600xp).

I personally wouldn't be opposed to more customized prerequisites for Advancements, because I already think that there should be a box saying that the GM has final say in what advances you can realistically take, but that the GM should favour a "hands off" approach - such as for Forbidden Lores, that might be hard to come by, depending on the game.

Anyway, I'm ranting again.

What I mean by "customized prerequisites" is that Talents (and Skills) should have more individualized prerequisites. For example, I'd be fine with Quick Draw having a prereq. saying "A minimum of 1000xp Spent in combat Talents; must have taken part in numerous confrontations involving the relevant weapon trained for".

A Weapons Training or Weapon Proficiency Talent might have a prereq. saying "Must have access to and have practised at least once with the relevant weapon type or class (or otherwise utilized it in a life-usage scenario." Forbidden Lore (Xenos) might have "Must have had at least basic contact with some for of Xeno or source of xeno-centric material (such as books, ruins, weapons, etc) at some point prior to acquiring this Skill."

Obviously, on creation, these prerequisites would specifically not apply.

Might increase the value and fluffyness of the Quick Draw Talent.

Also, you're not *entirely* immune to the game mechanic. I realize it's nitpicking and it's relevance is weak, but you could play up the fact that sheeting or holstering your weapon might still count as an action (except for maybe a Basic weapon in a sling - you just drop it, after all).

"I could do so because I had spent a lot of EXP"

BS +5 x4

Agility + 5 x4

Per +5 x4

Awareness + 10 x2

Lightning reflexes

Rapid Reaction

Quick Draw

Leap up

Two Wpn wielder Ballistic

Ambidexstrous

Gunslinger

Hipshooting

Heightened Senses : Sight

Heightened Senses : sound

Marksman

Deadeye Shot

Sharp Shooter

All tied in around being able to respond faster than a normal person can when combat / surprise is about to begin, they all meant my character was unique in the group in that specific situation, he was designed around being very fast, very hard to get the drop on, and very deadly. And it was a lot of exp.

I do not see everyone taking all the same skills, I never ever have done, but maybe I am just particularly lucky with the group I game with? we have 8 people inc the one who GM's.

I would say everyone in a group trying to rush quickdraw is probably a group-specific thing, rather than a general problem.ev

Agreed. Valid alternative in almost every situation: Dive into full cover, draw gun while getting an idea of the situation.

"I could do so because I had spent a lot of EXP"

BS +5 x4

Agility + 5 x4

Per +5 x4

Awareness + 10 x2

Lightning reflexes

Rapid Reaction

Quick Draw

Leap up

Two Wpn wielder Ballistic

Ambidexstrous

Gunslinger

Hipshooting

Heightened Senses : Sight

Heightened Senses : sound

Marksman

Deadeye Shot

Sharp Shooter

All tied in around being able to respond faster than a normal person can when combat / surprise is about to begin, they all meant my character was unique in the group in that specific situation, he was designed around being very fast, very hard to get the drop on, and very deadly. And it was a lot of exp.

I do not see everyone taking all the same skills, I never ever have done, but maybe I am just particularly lucky with the group I game with? we have 8 people inc the one who GM's.

Why do I get the feeling that this character probably had Paranoia too?

Paranoia isn't in the game any more

I just find it leaves a bad taste in my mouth that a character can be rendered immune to an entire game mechanic, right out of character generation, with no major negative effects other than missing out on a skill rank or two.

Again, I find myself agreeing with your sentiments, but while that is annoying, under the Aptitude system, it's by far less of an issue (aforementioned 200xp vs. 600xp).

I personally wouldn't be opposed to more customized prerequisites for Advancements, because I already think that there should be a box saying that the GM has final say in what advances you can realistically take, but that the GM should favour a "hands off" approach - such as for Forbidden Lores, that might be hard to come by, depending on the game.

Anyway, I'm ranting again.

What I mean by "customized prerequisites" is that Talents (and Skills) should have more individualized prerequisites. For example, I'd be fine with Quick Draw having a prereq. saying "A minimum of 1000xp Spent in combat Talents; must have taken part in numerous confrontations involving the relevant weapon trained for".

A Weapons Training or Weapon Proficiency Talent might have a prereq. saying "Must have access to and have practised at least once with the relevant weapon type or class (or otherwise utilized it in a life-usage scenario." Forbidden Lore (Xenos) might have "Must have had at least basic contact with some for of Xeno or source of xeno-centric material (such as books, ruins, weapons, etc) at some point prior to acquiring this Skill."

Obviously, on creation, these prerequisites would specifically not apply.

Might increase the value and fluffyness of the Quick Draw Talent.

Also, you're not *entirely* immune to the game mechanic. I realize it's nitpicking and it's relevance is weak, but you could play up the fact that sheeting or holstering your weapon might still count as an action (except for maybe a Basic weapon in a sling - you just drop it, after all).

I like a lot of these as Gm prerogatives. Quickdraw though, is actually one of those few talents that can actually be practiced and learned in front of a mirror at home or on a range. So I wouldn't require the 1000xp as combat talents. I really did like your Idea of dividing Quickdraw up into weapon classes (Pistol, Basic, Melee/thrown). That would give more the feel that you're practicing with a specific weapon. (Or type)

I really did like your Idea of dividing Quickdraw up into weapon classes (Pistol, Basic, Melee/thrown). That would give more the feel that you're practicing with a specific weapon. (Or type)

This.

Paranoia isn't in the game any more

Bloody is in mine.

Paws off my Paranoia FFG!