Nope.

nope to what? care to elaborate?

Sorry Hakon, MosesofWar is correct. Quick Draw is not a ranked talent, you can only buy it once.

ah i see what your referring to now.

yes RAW state since under the talent description when it says ranked: no

you automatically have it in all other trees.

However if you house rule it to be stackable where:

each rank gives an extra draw or holster action in the round.

then you would need to house rule that quickdraw need to have ranked: yes in it's description.

in such a house ruling quick strike can be stacked, but must be bought to advance in any given talent tree.

RAW do not allow 2 weapons to be drawn as single incidental.

RAW do not allow 2 weapons to be drawn as single incidental.

That may correct - I don't have CRB on me, I can't remember whether or not it just doesn't state anything regarding two weapons, or if it says specifically against drawing two weapons (as the talents descriptions listed in the boxes in the Specialization pages often don't explain as much as the Talents descriptions in the Talents section).

RAW do not allow 2 weapons to be drawn as single incidental.

Yup, that was the meat of my dilema.

Okay. Quick Draw isn't a levelled talent (you either gots it or you don't) and I believe as it's written it allows you to draw a weapon (or whatever) as an Incidental. So what are people doing about dual-wielding gunslingers?

Seems fairer to use it to draw both weapons than force the guy to buy it twice, though.

(Fairer? Less of a stretch? Kinder?)

Seems fairer to use it to draw both weapons than force the guy to buy it twice, though.

(Fairer? Less of a stretch? Kinder?)

I think this makes the most sense, unless I missed that the RAW specifically doesn't allow this. This would be odd, because you can draw two weapons with a single maneuver.

i would say if you don't house rule it like i mentioned earlier your only other option is to play RAW and to solve that 1 pistol must have the quick draw upgrade, so you use the quickdraw talent on the gun thats not upgraded and have the other weapon quickdrawn because of it's innate upgrade.

I see nothing wrong with allowing the Quick Draw Talent to enable a character to draw both weapons, specifically since drawing both normally, without the Talent, is the same as drawing one.

I do see something wrong, the talent specifically says you can't:

Quick Draw

Activation: Active (incidental)

Ranked:no

Trees: Assassin, Force sensitive Exile, Scoundrel

Once per round on the character's turn, he may draw or holster an easily accessible weapon as an incidental, not a maneuver. This talent also reduces the amount of time to draw or stow a weapon that usually requires more than one maneuver to properly prepare or stow , by one maneuver.

I suspect the developers weren't specifically thinking about chaps with two guns (or knives or swords) when they wrote it though.

That there isn't a way, RAW, to do something shouldn't be a massive impediment. Go with what's fast, go with what seems fair to you, but above all go with what's fun.

like i said, nothing stopping you taking the quick draw feature on each weapon you wish to quick draw, but until you do, the RAW limit you to 1 weapon with the class talent.

you disagree, or don't like it, house rule it, like i have, to be like this:

Quick Draw

Activation: Active (incidental)

Ranked: Yes

Trees: Assassin, Force sensitive Exile, Scoundrel

Once per round, per rank, on the character's turn, he may draw or holster an easily accessible weapon as an incidental, not a maneuver. This talent also reduces the amount of time to draw or stow a weapon that usually requires more than one maneuver to properly prepare or stow , by one maneuver per rank.

at the moment the best way if you duel wield unupgraded pistols is: round 1, quickdraw 1 pistol, aim, shoot.

round 2, quick draw second pistol, aim with both pistols, shoot with both pistols.

like i said, nothing stopping you taking the quick draw feature on each weapon you wish to quick draw, but until you do, the RAW limit you to 1 weapon with the class talent.

you disagree, or don't like it, house rule it, like i have, to be like this:

Quick Draw

Activation: Active (incidental)

Ranked: Yes

Trees: Assassin, Force sensitive Exile, Scoundrel

Once per round, per rank, on the character's turn, he may draw or holster an easily accessible weapon as an incidental, not a maneuver. This talent also reduces the amount of time to draw or stow a weapon that usually requires more than one maneuver to properly prepare or stow , by one maneuver per rank.

That's an alright way to do it, but people can houserule it how they like. I'd personally just allow it to apply to both weapons as it's a bit less complex than making the Talent ranked. That's just my preference though.

i think RAW is fair though, it would be very hard for even someone with a quick draw to take out 2 pistols, aim and then shoot,

sure they can take out 2 pistols and shoot, but to aim, with 2 guns, after just pulling em out, unless they have a stacked talent like i give my players its a bit hard to see it happening and makes quick draw uber powerful.

If it now takes a maneuver to draw a second weapon, the verbiage could be interpreted that the second weapon's maneuver to draw is reduced by one maneuver to an incidental as well. You can interpret or house rule it however you'd like. There isn't one specific way, just do what you think works for your game.

Quick Draw

Activation: Active (incidental)

Ranked:no

Trees: Assassin, Force sensitive Exile, Scoundrel

Once per round on the character's turn, he may draw or holster an easily accessible weapon as an incidental, not a maneuver. This talent also reduces the amount of time to draw or stow a weapon that usually requires more than one maneuver to properly prepare or stow , by one maneuver.

The other way one could interpret this is, that dual-wielding would classify under:

"This talent also reduces the amount of time to draw or stow a weapon that usually requires more than one maneuver to properly prepare or stow, by one maneuver."

If it now takes a maneuver to draw a second weapon, the verbiage could be interpreted that the second weapon's maneuver to draw is reduced by one maneuver to an incidental as well. You can interpret or house rule it however you'd like. There isn't one specific way, just do what you think works for your game.

This talent also reduces the amount of time to draw or stow a weapon that usually requires more than one maneuver to properly prepare or stow, by one maneuver."

Hakon - not everyone's house-rule is going to be the same as yours. I don't see a problem with allowing both weapons to be drawn incidentally. I don't see a problem with your house-rule either. One GM's interpretation of a RAW will be different from another, and to a third as well. There's nothing wrong with you and I looking at the same rule and interpreting it in a different way...

i agree to an extent, but from what i see, you are making the rule more powerful, for no extra xp, i am making it more powerful if extra xp is invested into learning that move.

similar to upgrading a force power if you will.

in the first few weeks we all played as if everyone had quick draw, we didn't read into the rules enough to realise we need to spend an action to draw our weapons. so i know the game can work fine without it.

Then we had someone join who had the quick draw talent, this effectively penalized all of us as we now played by the rules (as we should have) but some people didn't see it that way at first.

now if you give this dual wielding guy the ability to draw 2 weapons, aim and then shoot, is that fair to your other players?

can he not simply round 1 quickdraw, aim and fire 1 pistol, round 2 quickdraw aim , fire 2 pistols? which is still better then what the others can do.

if he wants the ability to work twice, can he not spend a little extra xp to reap the rewards, like others who seek better abilities?

For me? No, because there is a penalty to Two-Weapon fighting that can't really be off-set other than by having a high dice pool and skill training... You have to add a difficulty die to your attack, then spend 2 Advantages or a Triumph to hit for the same amount of damage after a successful attacks. I don't see this as less powerful as someone quick drawing a blaster rifle, that has auto-fire... Two-Weapon fighting is more about flare in this game than a fighting advantage.

Like I said, for me and the games I run, I haven't run into a problem allowing quick draw to be purchased once, and the talent is active for two-weapons, a two-handed weapon or a single weapon. If you're finding balance in how you created the rule, I'm glad you posted that option as now a GM has a couple options to look at if they need help intrepretting or altering the RAW for their game.

question...

how does a quick drawn vibroaxe do more damage then a quick draw with 2 pistols with the RAW approach?

the way i see it:

Round 1-

vibroaxe: quick draw, aim , spend to strain and aim again, attack does damage equal to brawn+3+successes+crit

pistol: quick draw 1 pistol, aim, spend 2 strain aim again, attack does damage equal to 7+successes+crit

round 2-

vibroaxe: aim, aim for strain, attack does brawn+3+success+crit

pistol: quick draw 2nd pistol, aim, aim for strain, attack does 7+7+successes+successes

am i missing something? 2 weapons seems better

I was in the middle of editing the post when you looked at it. The Vibro-Axe Comparison I was using against using Two Vibro-Blades.

In regard to Two-Pistols, the best comparison is, Two-Weapon Fighting to Ranged (Heavy) - or Assassin v. Scoundrel. Two-Weapon fighting adds a difficult die to your roll and you must use two advantage to do the damage of the initial hit. In the case of a Blaster Pistol, we'll say this is 7+Success. Compare that to Blaster Rifle with Auto-Fire... It's the same as having two Pistols: add a difficultly die on the roll, deal the same damage as the first shot from the blaster rifle with two advantages, which would be 9+Success. You can quick-draw a Blaster Rifle with an incidental, which will do more damage than two-pistols if it has Auto-Fire, so I see no problem with allowing someone to draw the two Pistols as an incidental.

I didn't see this in the thread, maybe I overlooked it but I think there should be consideration for the talent and a modification that applies that talent. A sling holster or the sawed off sight both apply the quick draw talent to that weapon specifically. I would think that if the PC had the talent, which allows him to pull out one weapon/device then that should not impede the use of quick draw that is applied to another weapon by those alternate methods. This may be more acceptable since it only allows stacking under specific conditions instead of just allowing a PC to whip all kinds of things out by just having the talent alone.

Moses, it seems to me that you have misread the two-weapon combat rules. If you succeed on your attack you hit with your main weapon, if you want to hit with your secondary weapon only then you need to use 2 advantage to hit with the second weapon.

That being said, I don't really see any reason not to allow you to draw 2 pistols as an incidential if you have Quickdraw, if you can draw two weapons as a single maneuver. I am not sure where you can find this in the rulebook. This hasn't really been a problem in our group so far, but it would be nice to know.

Moses, it seems to me that you have misread the two-weapon combat rules. If you succeed on your attack you hit with your main weapon, if you want to hit with your secondary weapon only then you need to use 2 advantage to hit with the second weapon.

That being said, I don't really see any reason not to allow you to draw 2 pistols as an incidential if you have Quickdraw, if you can draw two weapons as a single maneuver. I am not sure where you can find this in the rulebook. This hasn't really been a problem in our group so far, but it would be nice to know.

Asoral you can find the entry from the rulebook at the top of the page RAW say the talent can only be used once.

and as Yugwen said, which i mentioned earlier, the only way to quick draw a second weapon without homeruling differently is to have a weapon with the mod that gives quickdraw.

Moses, it seems to me that you have misread the two-weapon combat rules. If you succeed on your attack you hit with your main weapon, if you want to hit with your secondary weapon only then you need to use 2 advantage to hit with the second weapon.

I haven't misread this... I said that you have to use two-advantage to deal the damage of your initial attack. So, if your initial attack is 7+Successes, then you need to spend two advantage to do an additional 7+Successes. I think you misunderstood what I was saying. However, to use both weapons, you have to upgrade the difficulty of the Ranged (Light) Action by adding a difficulty die. So, at close range, instead of rolling only a single difficulty die for a Ranged (Light) attack, you now have to roll two.

This functions exactly the same as 'Auto-Fire' which comes standard on many Blaster Rifles. So, simply buying a Blaster Rifle, which incidentally does more damage than a Blaster Pistol, gives access to basically the same fighting style as two-pistols but Auto-Fire on a Blaster Rifle has the ability to do more damage, than Two-Weapon fighting. My logic, is a blaster rifle is a two-handed weapon which can be drawn as an incidental, and can do more damage than Two-Weapon Fighting with Auto-Fire, I don't see a reason to force someone who wants to use two weapons to use a maneuver to ready a second weapon.