So - there it is; the obligatory GZ comment you cant avoid:

1.) As mentioned very often by very very many people here in the forums: return opposed evading; it is good, it is righteous, it is needed

2.) Delay should need a full action

3.) Tactical advancemovement should only grant a half movement; otherwise it is always better than a full movement itself

4.) Called shot needs any sort of buff; in its current state it is useless. I would love to see a cool effect been given to called shots, like crippling (1), vengeful (9), a damage bonus or something else which is usefull (even taking armour *1/2 would be better)

5.) Evasion modifiers (dodge, parry) from the skill-sections example box belong into the combat section, if they are official combat modifiers (parrying while in cover etc.)

6.) I miss talents against pinning (e.g. Nerves of steel); this makes pinning...too strong

7.) maybe thats just me, but I'd love to have an optional delay on grenade explosions to get enemies out of their cover

8.) the beta1 fatigue system was WAY BETTER than the current is - please return it, along with a change to: Blood Loss, Shocking, Bleeder rounds, Fear (creates 1 fatigue if failed)

9.) I would love a grappling sidebox that shows optional rules for putting manacles on a grappled target or for using grappled targets as living shield / cover

10.) Guarded action needs to be the first half action in the turn; otherwise it can be exploited (attack first, then go defense without the downside ever taking effect)

11.) It would be nice to have a possibility to get bonus damage on charge attacks (talent ?)

12.) knock-down doesnt state clearly how it can be combined with charges (and how the bonus is to be used exactly)

13.) Surprise feels a little too powerful (maybe it should allow at least a -20 reaction)

14.) it should be possible to highten the effect of RF crit effects (talent ?)

So - thats it for now ;D

What do you think ?

Those are all points I do agree with. Exception Nr.13 .

I plan use the Fear System of the Beta1.

Those are all points I do agree with. Exception Nr.13 .

I plan use the Fear System of the Beta1.

I agree that Fear of Beta1 alongside with insanity and corruption is better in beta1...but thats gonna be next weeks topic I think.

Nice to see that my issues are shared

So - there it is; the obligatory GZ comment you cant avoid:

1.) As mentioned very often by very very many people here in the forums: return opposed evading; it is good, it is righteous, it is needed

2.) Delay should need a full action

3.) Tactical advancemovement should only grant a half movement; otherwise it is always better than a full movement itself

4.) Called shot needs any sort of buff; in its current state it is useless. I would love to see a cool effect been given to called shots, like crippling (1), vengeful (9), a damage bonus or something else which is usefull (even taking armour *1/2 would be better)

5.) Evasion modifiers (dodge, parry) from the skill-sections example box belong into the combat section, if they are official combat modifiers (parrying while in cover etc.)

6.) I miss talents against pinning (e.g. Nerves of steel); this makes pinning...too strong

7.) maybe thats just me, but I'd love to have an optional delay on grenade explosions to get enemies out of their cover

8.) the beta1 fatigue system was WAY BETTER than the current is - please return it, along with a change to: Blood Loss, Shocking, Bleeder rounds, Fear (creates 1 fatigue if failed)

9.) I would love a grappling sidebox that shows optional rules for putting manacles on a grappled target or for using grappled targets as living shield / cover

10.) Guarded action needs to be the first half action in the turn; otherwise it can be exploited (attack first, then go defense without the downside ever taking effect)

11.) It would be nice to have a possibility to get bonus damage on charge attacks (talent ?)

12.) knock-down doesnt state clearly how it can be combined with charges (and how the bonus is to be used exactly)

13.) Surprise feels a little too powerful (maybe it should allow at least a -20 reaction)

14.) it should be possible to highten the effect of RF crit effects (talent ?)

So - thats it for now ;D

What do you think ?

1) Yes, yes, yes! A thousand times yes!

2) Honestly, I think Delay should just be a free action stating "During this round, you may choose to take your turn before or after any character with an initiative lower than your own. This cannot interrupt a character in the middle of an action" Sometimes you just want to shoot someone after your buddy gets out of the way, and it makes no sense to over-complicate this or punish players with high initiatives by costing them actions.

Add another action called "Interrupt" that counts as a Full Action and allows you to interrupt another person's action with an opposed Agility test followed by a half action if you succeed

3)This is actually just a case of really sh*tty naming. A Half Action spent on Movement allows you to move your "Full Movement" value (equal to your Agility bonus). A Full Action spent on Movement allows you to move your "Full Movement" value twice. A Full Action spent on Tactical Advance allows you to move your "Full Movement" value once. Yes, they should rename these to avoid confusion. Maybe change "Full Movement" to "Standard Move" and "Half Movement" to "Reduced Movement"

4)Called shot definitely needs a buff. I like Vengeful.

5)Yeah, this book could use more organization

6)Haven't really looked at this.

7)This seems like something to just work out with the GM

8)Absolutely, the Beta had a better system.

9)God, grappling is such a **** mess. I'm tending to just side with cps and say to make it a simple opposed weapon skill to grab someone as a half action, and opposed strength to do what you want in a grapple. List some basic things you can choose to do with that opposed strength (Immobilize, Throw/Move, Damage, and any other actions that make sense). Just leave it at that, maybe add clarifiers for a few things that players may need rules clarification on.

10) Good call on this.

11)I don't see a lot of reason for this.

12)Haven't looked into it

13) Haven't looked into it

14) RF, while being more mathematically balanced, does feel pretty weak.

Regarding Guarded Action and Delay, I think a lot of the fears of exploitation would be allayed by making it clear that a character is still only allowed one attack action on their turn (defined as the start of their initiative until the start of their next initiative) and that Attacking and Guarded Action are mutually exclusive. Maybe borrow 4E's verbiage "Until the Start of Your Next Turn".

Grappling is a god-damned mess. Cleaner than OW, but it's still a mess. We don't need a special unarmed combat subsystem.

1.) As mentioned very often by very very many people here in the forums: return opposed evading; it is good, it is righteous, it is needed

Agreed 100%

2.) Delay should need a full action

I would be ok with half action delay if you did not use attack power. Move into position and prepare then delay = more tactical . Maybe make a talent for that. I think this game could use more tactical tallents.

3.) Tactical advancemovement should only grant a half movement; otherwise it is always better than a full movement itself

Agree

4.) Called shot needs any sort of buff; in its current state it is useless. I would love to see a cool effect been given to called shots, like crippling (1), vengeful (9), a damage bonus or something else which is usefull (even taking armour *1/2 would be better)

Agree. I think increase pen value would be appropriate and give a option to delay with high armored targets.

5.) Evasion modifiers (dodge, parry) from the skill-sections example box belong into the combat section, if they are official combat modifiers (parrying while in cover etc.)

Yes. Also dodge parry should be molded into one evade skill with two application (like original beta). Otherwise too much of the cost sink.

6.) I miss talents against pinning (e.g. Nerves of steel); this makes pinning...too strong

My problem with pinning is being denied your actual is not fun for gamers. Its ok from time to time but if its comon occurance would make game less fun from playability point of view. I do understand the realism aspect and why a lot of people want it in. So any player options (e.g. talents) that would help deal with it would be great.

7.) maybe thats just me, but I'd love to have an optional delay on grenade explosions to get enemies out of their cover

I don't think delay before grenade explositions should be optional. It should be default. Sacrifice to fall on grendade to cover your allies is a synamatic trope tha should be possible, as is very veeeeryyy risky option of picking grenade up and tossing it back.

8.) the beta1 fatigue system was WAY BETTER than the current is - please return it, along with a change to: Blood Loss, Shocking, Bleeder rounds, Fear (creates 1 fatigue if failed)

Undecided on fatigue systems. But i think I am in minority here as I prefer the combat to be slightly less deadly for acolite. So I will roll with what community wants in this case.

9.) I would love a grappling sidebox that shows optional rules for putting manacles on a grappled target or for using grappled targets as living shield / cover

Why would this rules be optional? Should be default in my opinion, or require talent... or a cool thing to add to adeptus arbires. But that said grappling is not high on my priority lists as it seems rarely done.

10.) Guarded action needs to be the first half action in the turn; otherwise it can be exploited (attack first, then go defense without the downside ever taking effect)

Agree

11.) It would be nice to have a possibility to get bonus damage on charge attacks (talent ?)

I am concern that in most DH 1 adventures vast majority of the time the game ends up in melee fest with charge already being exremely popular way to get there (due to short distances between oponents at start of fight). I am ok with charge being powerfull, but would like it to be risky. Right now its just all bonuses with no downsides significant enough for a tactical choice.

Also if we give melee option to close and attack, we need to give alternative to range that would allow range characters to spend resources into making closing into melee range with them more difficult/riski.

12.) knock-down doesnt state clearly how it can be combined with charges (and how the bonus is to be used exactly)

Do we want it to be combined with charges? I don't think it should be. I don't want charge to be the swiss army knife of melee combat options.

13.) Surprise feels a little too powerful (maybe it should allow at least a -20 reaction)

Well it should be powerfull to simulate ambush. But at the same time I would like more talents that would deal with both mitigating being surprised (personal and team) and taking adventage of surprising others (personal and team). More options in character build is good and this would create new build options.

14.) it should be possible to highten the effect of RF crit effects (talent ?)

Agree. I am thinking RF could have fun ways to be enolved in faith talents too. After all faith is righteous and all that

So - there it is; the obligatory GZ comment you cant avoid:

1.) As mentioned very often by very very many people here in the forums: return opposed evading; it is good, it is righteous, it is needed

------------->Agreed! It's not a talent it's just basic combat.

2.) Delay should need a full action

------------->I don't think so. Delay simply means going later in the round but adjusting yourself to "Wait for the opportune moment" should cost you something.

3.) Tactical advancemovement should only grant a half movement; otherwise it is always better than a full movement itself

--------->See CPS comment

4.) Called shot needs any sort of buff; in its current state it is useless. I would love to see a cool effect been given to called shots, like crippling (1), vengeful (9), a damage bonus or something else which is usefull (even taking armour *1/2 would be better)

5.) Evasion modifiers (dodge, parry) from the skill-sections example box belong into the combat section, if they are official combat modifiers (parrying while in cover etc.)

----------True!

6.) I miss talents against pinning (e.g. Nerves of steel); this makes pinning...too strong

------------> Didn't realise they weren't there. agreed! Hope it's an oversight!

7.) maybe thats just me, but I'd love to have an optional delay on grenade explosions to get enemies out of their cover

-------------> Already covered by agility save.

8.) the beta1 fatigue system was WAY BETTER than the current is - please return it, along with a change to: Blood Loss, Shocking, Bleeder rounds, Fear (creates 1 fatigue if failed)

--------------> I like the fatigue system too. The others...meh.

9.) I would love a grappling sidebox that shows optional rules for putting manacles on a grappled target or for using grappled targets as living shield / cover

------------>Interesting thought!

10.) Guarded action needs to be the first half action in the turn; otherwise it can be exploited (attack first, then go defense without the downside ever taking effect)

---------> Understand your point though I admit I haven't looked at it too closely

11.) It would be nice to have a possibility to get bonus damage on charge attacks (talent ?)

--------------> This actually makes more sense than a bonus to hit! It's actually harder to hit someone on the run but the force of impact is FAR greater!

12.) knock-down doesnt state clearly how it can be combined with charges (and how the bonus is to be used exactly)

---------------> Knock down or takedown?

13.) Surprise feels a little too powerful (maybe it should allow at least a -20 reaction)

--------------->NO! This is one of the few realisms in the game! The targets are already allowed an opposed awareness vs. stealth to not be surprised. An unaware opponent cannot react to an attack they have no idea is coming! You Castrate the nature of an Assassin if you do this!

14.) it should be possible to highten the effect of RF crit effects (talent ?)

----------------> possibly. Have to think about that one.

So - thats it for now ;D

What do you think ?

I've mentioned this elsewhere, but since this is a thread devoted to combat, I might as well repeat my main combat pet peeve: I dislike the fact that, from Black Crusade on, Righteous Fury (or Zealous Hatred) is purely random and does not take the combat skill of the individual into account, basically taking all of the righteousness out of RF. I'd like to see the Confirmation roll make a comeback, or possibly some new system based off of Degrees of Success.

I've mentioned this elsewhere, but since this is a thread devoted to combat, I might as well repeat my main combat pet peeve: I dislike the fact that, from Black Crusade on, Righteous Fury (or Zealous Hatred) is purely random and does not take the combat skill of the individual into account, basically taking all of the righteousness out of RF. I'd like to see the Confirmation roll make a comeback, or possibly some new system based off of Degrees of Success.

I disagree completely on this. The confirmation roll makes Righteous Fury even more random, and takes away a lot of the satisfaction of managing to nail a shot. Isn't combat skill taken into account enough by the first hit you get on something?

I've mentioned this elsewhere, but since this is a thread devoted to combat, I might as well repeat my main combat pet peeve: I dislike the fact that, from Black Crusade on, Righteous Fury (or Zealous Hatred) is purely random and does not take the combat skill of the individual into account, basically taking all of the righteousness out of RF. I'd like to see the Confirmation roll make a comeback, or possibly some new system based off of Degrees of Success.

I disagree completely on this. The confirmation roll makes Righteous Fury even more random, and takes away a lot of the satisfaction of managing to nail a shot. Isn't combat skill taken into account enough by the first hit you get on something?

Yes, but only as far as replacing the Damage rolled with DoS.

Maybe, on RF, add DoS to the total Damage, then roll d5 for the RF result? Just spitballin'...

I've mentioned this elsewhere, but since this is a thread devoted to combat, I might as well repeat my main combat pet peeve: I dislike the fact that, from Black Crusade on, Righteous Fury (or Zealous Hatred) is purely random and does not take the combat skill of the individual into account, basically taking all of the righteousness out of RF. I'd like to see the Confirmation roll make a comeback, or possibly some new system based off of Degrees of Success.

I disagree completely on this. The confirmation roll makes Righteous Fury even more random, and takes away a lot of the satisfaction of managing to nail a shot. Isn't combat skill taken into account enough by the first hit you get on something?

?? How does taking skill into account make it more random than a flat 10%, unrelated to skill?

And, 'philosophically' speaking, why do you suppose it's called 'Righteous Fury'? Because 'righteousness' is purely random, or because it should happen to 'name' characters more often than faceless 'grunts'?

Yes, but only as far as replacing the Damage rolled with DoS.

Maybe, on RF, add DoS to the total Damage, then roll d5 for the RF result? Just spitballin'...

That would be an improvement on the current system, in my opinion.

I've mentioned this elsewhere, but since this is a thread devoted to combat, I might as well repeat my main combat pet peeve: I dislike the fact that, from Black Crusade on, Righteous Fury (or Zealous Hatred) is purely random and does not take the combat skill of the individual into account, basically taking all of the righteousness out of RF. I'd like to see the Confirmation roll make a comeback, or possibly some new system based off of Degrees of Success.

I disagree completely on this. The confirmation roll makes Righteous Fury even more random, and takes away a lot of the satisfaction of managing to nail a shot. Isn't combat skill taken into account enough by the first hit you get on something?

?? How does taking skill into account make it more random than a flat 10%, unrelated to skill?

Yes, but only as far as replacing the Damage rolled with DoS.

Maybe, on RF, add DoS to the total Damage, then roll d5 for the RF result? Just spitballin'...

That would be an improvement on the current system, in my opinion.

Adding a second roll makes it more random because you're adding a second point of unknown results. I guess randomness isn't technically the right word, but it does lower the probability of the thing working, which, for all intents and purposes, could be called making it more random.

My only strong feelings are on #1, but the strength of those feelings cannot be overstated. Yes, for the love of the Emperor, PLEASE bring back opposed evading!!

The confirmation roll is bull and my group has never done it. Rolling a crit is awesome and adding a second point afterward that takes it away is a really stupid, unfun mechanic.

Combatant skill is already taken into account by the attack roll. Crits should be random and accessible to all.

My regular gaming group is pretty eclectic in the games we play and it means i have access to a whole range of other rule sets. So i looked at another D% system we use (Runequest) and had a look at how it handles Dodge/Parry. Now I've had a go at adapting what I found to fit the Beta. Bear in mind this is only a first draft and it i'm afraid it does show.

For some reason I cant get it to copy into the box so i've attached it as a file. I will admit to being pretty computer illiterate so this may not actually work. Charts.doc

My regular gaming group is pretty eclectic in the games we play and it means i have access to a whole range of other rule sets. So i looked at another D% system we use (Runequest) and had a look at how it handles Dodge/Parry. Now I've had a go at adapting what I found to fit the Beta. Bear in mind this is only a first draft and it i'm afraid it does show.

For some reason I cant get it to copy into the box so i've attached it as a file. I will admit to being pretty computer illiterate so this may not actually work. Charts.doc