We haven't tested the ideas yet but I am thinking next session. I agree also, if something isn't implemented to rein in autofire it is just ridiculous damage output and takes all challenge from the game, which makes it all somewhat pointless imo.

Some of the ideas we are kicking around.

-No Jury Rigging to lower the Advantages needed to trigger the effect. This one is pretty much a done deal in my GMs eyes.

Easiest to implement, nobody can complain that they're being singled out

-Hard cap on the number of AutoFire shots allowed per burst with number TBD.

-AutoFire rating similar to a linked rating, allowing for variation to the hard cap rule and possibly the option to mod it.

Yeah, that's cool. Makes the stuff that'd have a really high RoF stand out.

-Setting default Difficulty at the multiple target level for all AutoFire attacks, so +2 Difficulty.

How about a Setback die for each extra target?

The only "problem" I see with this is that either way it encourages the guy with the machine gun to dump it all on the Nemesis. (Bye-bye, Nemesis.)

-Scaling Advantage requirement upward similar to increasing attributes, so for example, the second shot would occur with '2' Advantages, the '3rd' would require 3 Advantages, the '4th' would be 4, and so on.

Like

2 advantages = 2 hits

5 advantages = 3 hits

9 advantages = 4 hits

14 advantages = 5 hits

20 advantages = 6 hits

?

You've got it all correct the way it's intended. Honestly regardless of the Difficulty the AutoFire guy is going to dogpile the Nemesis. I don't have the AoR screen yet but it sounds like a screen of hapless dupes should be useful for soaking up hits for a Nemesis now.

Even with the scaling Advantages there are still Triumphs and at the point someone has truly advanced their character, 4 or 5 yellows are completely likely in a dice pool.

The more I think about it, the more I think it would be better to just treat AutoFire like Linked with a fixed rating, but with the option of hitting multiple targets for the increased Difficulty or a Setback die for each additional target. It's probably the only way to keep it useful but controlled.

My option is that no more than one hit from any Auto-Fire attack can hit a given target. This makes Auto-Fire useful against groups but not particularly effective against a single target.

How do you treat minion groups with it?

How do you treat minion groups with it?

Multiple hits to a minion group (up to one per minion). Yes, this does mean that an Auto-Fire weapon can shred minion groups, but I'm OK with that. What I don't like is using Auto-Fire to hose important characters (PCs or NPCs) with streams of fire. Considering that a non-Auto-Fire attack can already represent multiple shots on a target, I don't think that Auto-Fire needs to enhance the ability to drop a single target any further.

How do you treat minion groups with it?

...wait a minute, you're not 2P51 - YOU'RE A PIRATE!

How do you treat minion groups with it?

...wait a minute, you're not 2P51 - YOU'RE A PIRATE!

Aye..............Arrrrrr.............where's your gold bird man?!?!..............

There are somethings, all RAW, to consider that are often overlooked and can reign in Auto-Fire a bit.

1) You must designate multiple targets before you role, you cannot add a new target after you role even if you can generate extra hits.

Because of this you can as a GM reasonably require that a PC must hit as many of their targets as possible and all at least once before doubling up on any one target.

2) You are not required to tell a Player that a target has reached their max HPs. If they want to know this they can, and should, spend an Advantage to "Notice a single important point in the ongoing conflict, ..." before moving on to their next target.

Theres nothing unreasonable in telling a Player to tell you when they are going to stop shooting at a target rather than you telling them.

These two things won't help much when theres only one target but it will help a bit in keeping you from having to deal with "I shoot him until he goes down then move on to the next guy until they go down etc."

The other thing that will help is making sure you don't hand wave other rules like Encumbrance (Slings and Harnesses don't reduce ENC, only Cumbersome). ENC really does add up even for high brawn PCs and a high Brawn will mean they aren't spending as much on a high Agility, skill, and Talents, which means fewer potential Advantages. And don't ignore the fluff like what weapons are acceptable being carried on certain worlds or the awkwardness of bellying up to the bar with a full Backpack and a HVYBR. Make them lean the gun on the bar or wherever and remove the pack when it makes sense. You're not penalizing Players by following the RAW, use the tools in the RAW that are there to balance stuff like this.

Except that the Heavy spec in HG throws Cumbersome and Encumbrance right out the window as a power level management tool for Auto Fire.

I think the primary issue with this weapon effect are the 6 hits on the Nemesis that can easily result with a couple mods and one rank of Jury Rigged.

Except that the Heavy spec in HG throws Cumbersome and Encumbrance right out the window as a power level management tool for Auto Fire.

I think the primary issue with this weapon effect are the 6 hits on the Nemesis that can easily result with a couple mods and one rank of Jury Rigged.

I understand this and I agree. But remember the sourcebooks are supplements and you don't have to use any of them, and you can pick and choose what parts you do use if you want to use any of them. The core rules are better balanced, which is pretty standard as far RPGs go. Supplements more often than not stretch and sometimes break things, and in this case the Heavy and some of the Signature Abilities without a doubt stretch the balancing mechanisms.

The truth is, as I see it, is that there are two basic philosophies with the developers going on with this game. One side wants the cinematic style and physics of the the original SW films and one wants it based more on the cartoons and comics. The difference between these two design philosophies may seem subtle to some but it's actually quite profound. I think you are like me and it's not that we don't enjoy the Clone Wars but we see them as the cartoons they are and prefer the heroic, magical realism of the original films.

I don't have a good suggestion on how to deal with this tendency of game designers to go all Michael Bay when supplement time comes around except to just not use it. I don't when I GM.

The core rules are the one with the basic rule for Auto Fire and Jury Rigged though. A HBR is only Enc 6 and Cumbersome 3. A sling in the CRB removes any Cumbersome issue, Jury Rigging drops the trigger to 1 Advantage, toss in Superior for the auto Advantage, and it is plenty unbalanced right in the CRB.

The core rules are the one with the basic rule for Auto Fire and Jury Rigged though. A HBR is only Enc 6 and Cumbersome 3. A sling in the CRB removes any Cumbersome issue, Jury Rigging drops the trigger to 1 Advantage, toss in Superior for the auto Advantage, and it is plenty unbalanced right in the CRB.

I'm on your side with this as well, I do think that Auto-Fire at a single Advantage is a bit to much and have considered having Jury Rigged be only for the first application on each attack but it's hasn't been an issue yet in my group.

I am thinking hard cap is the best approach. 3 hits on a single target max. As many as you can generate for multiple targets one each. Keeps Nemeses from at least going down in 1 round hopefully, especially with these new squad rules from what I've read.

Why not just thwart them with a non-combat threat or something that can easily avoid the shots? Have an opponent with that energy shield that likes to lob grenades. Have an enemy that sneaks up on them. Have an enemy sniper sunder the weapon. Set traps. I prefer non-combat really. If you have a heavily combat oriented group, who are trigger happy, put the in front of the nemesis in a very crowded public setting where firing their weapons would be certain death. If the player still pushes too much, kill them off and make them reroll another character. That would also drive the point that pc's are not beyond dying.

Using the Dice Roller app, I sat there for a while doing some test rolls and I would say that roughly 50% of the time there was a lot of successes, but not enough advantages remaining to activate autofire even once, much less multiple times.

The other 50%, there were some that had a bunch of advantages but no successes (so misses) advantages with some successes, or a lot of advantages with a single success.

With a lower damage autofire weapon (SE-14r Light Repeater) a single success with a bunch of advantages would not have even scratched the nemesis that group fought in their last encounter (soak 7).

I think that coupled with restricting my group to the lower damage autofire weapons (through the narrative), that I will not have any issues with the RAW.

I don't want to get hung up on the what if's. People will either get a lot of advantages or successes, or a few of both. The nature of the dice restrict the outcome those results. The narrative you give the party with the world you create will restrict which weapons they can apply those results to.

If I were to impose a Hard Cap (which I probably won't), I would cap it at their Brawn score to represent being strong enough to control the kick of the autofire weapon.

What Agility and Skill ranks? Modded gun? Talents? Career/Spec?

What Agility and Skill ranks? Modded gun? Talents? Career/Spec?

I did not write down my previous results, so I ran some new ones.

I am just looking at raw dice at the moment, so SE-14r Light Repeater with a Blaster Actuating Module.

I am not looking at career or talents yet. To be honest, I’m not sure that there is anything out there that specifically helps autofire, Point Blank for damage maybe, but not much else. From what I read, most of you don’t allow aiming to be used with autofire, and I would tend to agree, but I am, as yet, undecided.

I understand that the Superior Weapon Customization would grant an additional advantage, but with a rarity of 6 (8 in the outer Rim) and a price tag of 5000 credits it will be a while before anyone in my game is going to happen upon one of those. A laser sight would give you one as well, so you can look at these numbers and apply that if you like.

5 Proficiency Dice, 1 Skill Die, Medium Range, Autofire, 1 setback die from a BAM

1S, 2A

4S, 2A, 1Tri

5S, 2 Th, 1 Tri - No Auto Fire occurs unless the Triumph is used

9S, 3 Th, 1 Tri - No Auto Fire occurs unless the Triumph is used

3F, 5A - Miss, and obviously No Auto Fire occurs

4S - No Auto Fire occurs

2F, 3A - Miss, and obviously No Auto Fire occurs

4S, 2A, 1 Tri

1T - Miss

8S, 2Th - No Auto Fire occurs

2S, 5A

1F, 3A - Miss, and obviously No Auto Fire occurs

2S, 1A

5S - No Auto Fire occurs

2S, 3A, 1Tri

6S, 1Tri - No Auto Fire occurs unless the Triumph is used

2S, 3A

3S, 1Th, 1Tri - No Auto Fire occurs unless the Triumph is used

2S, 7A

1S, 6A

Now, if the party is known to be packing autofire weapons, anyone coming after them should be making use of available cover. A pile of rocks in “Long Arm of the Hutt” web adventure gave 2 setback dice for cover.

And in my opinion, Brace is only used for exactly what is described: bracing yourself against changing environmental conditions (i.e. earthquakes, vehicles swerving, high winds), not off setting cover. Period, no one has even questioned me on it, even my rules lawyer agrees with me on this. So, an enemy in cover will always get those set back dice.

This next set of numbers is the same as above, but has the enemies hunkering down into available cover while going after the party. Should the party come looking for these guys at home, the cover would be more like armored barricades with a firing slit (probably 3+ setback dice.

5 Proficiency Dice, 1 Skill Die, Medium Range, Autofire, 1 setback die from a BAM, 2 setback dice from cover.

3S, 2Tri - No Auto Fire occurs unless the Triumph is used

1F, 3A - Miss, and obviously No Auto Fire occurs

2S, 2Th - No Auto Fire occurs

2A - Miss, and obviously No Auto Fire occurs

3S, 1Th, 2Tri - No Auto Fire occurs unless the Triumph is used

1S, 2Th, 2Tri - No Auto Fire occurs unless the Triumph is used

4S, 2A

1A, 1Tri - Miss, and obviously No Auto Fire occurs

5S, 1A

3S, 1Th - No Auto Fire occurs

1S, 1A

1F, 3A - Miss, and obviously No Auto Fire occurs

1F, 2A, 1Tri - Miss, and obviously No Auto Fire occurs

2S, 2A

1A - Miss, and obviously No Auto Fire occurs

4S, 2A, 2Tri

3S, 1A, 1Tri

4F, 7A - Miss, and obviously No Auto Fire occurs

5S, 2T, 1Tri - No Auto Fire occurs unless the Triumph is used

3A – Miss, and obviously No Auto Fire occurs

If this doesn’t work for you, give their nemesis Side Step and/or Dodge . Have him use Side Step on his turn, and if the auto-fire character targets him, have him use Dodge . There are a few more setback dice (that Brace also doesn’t negate) that will make him harder to hit. Auto fire must be targeted at the most difficult target that the shooter wants to hit.

The nemesis could use 3 advantage to cause the character to drop his weapon temporarily, forcing him to take the time to retrieve it, while he is attempting to do so, the minion groups target the no silent gunner, possibly moving forward attempting to engage him in melee, while a rival or nemesis retrieves the weapon and turns it on the party.

Concussion Grenades, Stagger renders him unable to use an action for 2 rounds, Disorient adds a setback die for 5 rounds.

Spend those Dark Side Points to upgrade the difficulty of their checks. Even if they have Spare Clip , a Despair can still be used to cause damage to the weapon (likely from overheating because it doesn't run out of ammo). Minor damage adds a setback die, Moderate also adds an additional difficulty die, and if he gets a third Despair in the same combat, the weapon is disabled. Minor Repairs cost 25% of the Base Cost, Moderate cost 50%, and Major 100%. He might be without it for the next couple of combats while he scrapes money together to make the necessary repairs.

I may also run it that even if they have Spare Clip , they must still spend a maneuver to reload, they just don't have to have the Extra Reload item in their inventory.

Hopefully this will help alleviate some of the fear of Autofire. Every combat will not be worst case scenario, maybe once in a while, but that will give them their chance to shine.

Using the Dice Roller app, I sat there for a while doing some test rolls and I would say that roughly 50% of the time there was a lot of successes, but not enough advantages remaining to activate autofire even once, much less multiple times.

Just in case you’re interested, there is a program out there for calculating statistical probabilities of various dice combinations — see my .sig. I didn’t create it, but I am a big fan.

I may also run it that even if they have Spare Clip , they must still spend a maneuver to reload, they just don't have to have the Extra Reload item in their inventory.

That really weakens the Spare Clip talent. It's already of questionable value, but with that change, you're making people spend XP to gain the effect they could have for a mere 25 credits and 1 Enc.

I allow aiming, nothing in the rules otherwise and I'm not sure how you ever hit a target without aiming in reality.

I may also run it that even if they have Spare Clip , they must still spend a maneuver to reload, they just don't have to have the Extra Reload item in their inventory.

That really weakens the Spare Clip talent. It's already of questionable value, but with that change, you're making people spend XP to gain the effect they could have for a mere 25 credits and 1 Enc.

I haven't decided it for certain, yet. When I think about it, Spare Clip doesn't have to mean unlimited ammo feed. To me it makes sense for a guy to have to reload in the middle of a fire fight if he happens to be spraying shots around the battlefield.

1 Enc is a precious commodity in my group. One guy in my group is currently running at an encumbrance threshold of 15/15. There is nothing that he is willing to put down at this time to upgrade from his heavy clothing to a suit of laminate armor that we just found. The NPC Medic that I am running with the group is also at like 1 away from maximum Encumbrance.

After you use that spare reload, you have to go buy another one, because it is consumed when used.

Spare Clip allows you to always have one without spending any money because you spent the experience to be able to pat your pockets and go "Okay, here's another clip".

I can understand how - if you're running a game where tense low-scale combat is the focus - someone blazing through with a heavy blaster rifle can really muck things up. But I think there are plenty of ways to deal with this without resorting to rule changes.

My game has a bounty hunter married to his HBR, I even let him strap a marksman barrel on it (different can of worms). He's trained himself up to rolling 5 yellows, and grabbed just about all the murder-related perks from the Assassin tree. My next most heavily armed PC carries a Lancer pistol, so I understand how problematic this PC can seem for combat balance.

But as korjik so elegantly stated, the GM controls reality. If you don't want your PCs auto firing their way through combats, adjust their behavior by giving them good reasons not to:

• They're in a civilized location where toting around a machine gun would be next to impossible.
• The Nemesis is as heavily armored as your Rambo-esque PC is armed.
• NPCs target the PC mercilessly when they realize the hardware he's carrying.
• People don't forget the man unleashing flurries of blaster fire, and he becomes Onderon's Most Wanted.

The other thing to bear in mind is that if a PC wants to min-max a weapon like that, then they probably want to feel like a murdertron bad-ass every once in a while. I know what my Bounty Hunter PC is capable of, and I know he's having the most fun when he's gunning down a horde of enemies, or oneshotting a tough guy. So sometimes he trivializes my combat encounters, but I planned for those to be trivialized. Sometime he runs into guys so heavily armed and armored that it pushes him to his limit in combat. But most often he gets put in situations where killing things serves no purpose, or will hurt the end goal.

In a narrative system like Edge, completing the story and winning a combat encounter are rarely directly linked. So if my Auto Firing Sniper Min/Maxer wants to gun down every bad guy while laughing that's fine, but it's not going to help him find a way off Kashyyyk with all those wookie refugees.