The problem I am having with all these new beam weapons is how obsolete they are making the current ships. Just buy 3 of these babies and go to town on anything you come up against.
I don't disagree that we may see this ship, but I just don't see them being at this power level.
They basically have no weaknesses, taken individually, the weapons seem ok, but when you put them in combos and on a pretty **** solid ship base, they become OP.
Well I feel that FFG will keep making special rules for ships as the go on. Examples of this are boost, bombs, ions, and a slew of new weapons.
For the Star Wing, TIE Defender, and BLT A4 retroactivly, they should have a new action "Fire Linked Weapons" it would follow what I wrote above, you can fire all energy weapons at the same target with the price of a focus tolken, and beam weapons cant be used. I am sure we could have a named pilot ignore the last bit of rule I posted.
Instead of having a a cannon upgrade slot I think it and the Defender should come with strength 2 Ion cannons.
I really really really, really don't like the idea of being able to fire both regular weapons and an Ion in the same round. Some things don't translate well into game balance from PC games.
The problem I am having with all these new beam weapons is how obsolete they are making the current ships. Just buy 3 of these babies and go to town on anything you come up against.
I don't disagree that we may see this ship, but I just don't see them being at this power level.
They basically have no weaknesses, taken individually, the weapons seem ok, but when you put them in combos and on a pretty **** solid ship base, they become OP.
This could be a good point. Do you have specific suggestions?
Edit: I still insist that the Gunboat should be 19 points at PS2. It's better than a Y-wing, and I don't see a reason to break the 2/4 pilot skill.
Edited by MajorJugglerFor the Beams plz also check the simplistic rules: http://community.fantasyflightgames.com/index.php?/topic/95346-assault-gunboat-values/page-2#entry934207
No ongoing and stacking effects and no new tokens needed.
I think the PS2 (Lets call the PS2 Gunboat 'Tau') at 21 points with the option of the free ion still is the best way to balance the Gunboat. This should encourage the player to use ion cannons on the cannon slot. But not permit the usage of other cannon systems.
Its an easy rule and permits 4 HLC at 100 points. You can go for 3 HLC, yes - thats just like the Rebels do with their B-Wings. I encoundered 3 x Dagger + HLC + FCS at the last turney, so I know the firepower is pretty decent - On the Imperial Side you could go for 3 x Assault Gunboat + HLC + Tractor Beam (assuming the rules for beams you see if you follow the link above) which is pretty about the same thing. And and this is a good thing. I think the Gunboat should be the match for the B-Wing, while being unique in the current meta. (in the same release the Rebels could get a large vessel, like like YT-2000, with a beam weapon upgrade slot, just like it happened with the System Upgrade slot in wave 3)
With B-Wings you can go with 4 x Blue + ion cannon. So B-Wings can ionize and vaporize ships with their firepower 3.
With Gunboats you can go with 4 x Tau + ion cannon + concussion. - this is fair, because the gunboats have firepower 2.
Rockets (6 points)
[requires 2 missile slots or 2 torpedo slots]
Range: 1-2. Spend your target lock to perform this attack. Roll 5 attack dice. Your may change any one die to a critical hit. Your opponent rolls twice as many defense dice as normal.
Maarek Stele used the Tractor beam to allow him to hit higher agility targets with Rockets, so I think these both make sense. Tractor beam would reduce the agility before rockets multiplies by two, so X-wings would be (2-1)*2 = 2, TIEs would be (3-1)*2 = 4, and B-Wings would b (1-1)*2 = 0.
Now this is an interesting weapon - you don't discard it after use?
Would'n 'Swarm Rockets' be a more appropiate name?
Edited by TheRealStarkillerI don't like any of the beam weapons suggested, they are almost all overpowered... The ability to fire twice in one round, especially multiple weapons would immediately break the game.
And people keep trying to give ships free upgrades...no. Just no. You pay for the upgrades and the ship comes as it is. Stop breaking basics (casually upgrading the advanced is one thing, developing new ships is quite another).
Good catch on the Rockets, you obviously need to discard the card, I forgot about that.
I generally agree with Rakky.
I also disagreed about attacking twice ... interesting thought, but since the game throughout is about: 1 ship, 1 attack per round ... thats fine.
You pay for the ion cannon upfront, so it isnt really 'free' ... the costs are included in the ship. Just to prevent 4 x HLC which can be a game breaker.
Please be more specific in which way the beams are overpowered.
TBH I would like to see "Light Weapons" as an upgrade type. Have an Ion Cannon varient, and other smaller guns, beam weapons filling that slot.
I also disagreed about attacking twice ... interesting thought, but since the game throughout is about: 1 ship, 1 attack per round ... thats fine.
You pay for the ion cannon upfront, so it isnt really 'free' ... the costs are included in the ship. Just to prevent 4 x HLC which can be a game breaker.
Please be more specific in which way the beams are overpowered.
Having a built-in Ion and then being able to take a HLC would essentially let you take 2 cannons at once though. No other ship can do this, not sure how I feel about it. The other potential issue is that its points that you are forced to spend, which can be a death-knell in a points based squad building game.
I think you misunderstood. No 2 cannons, sir. Only 1 cannon.
Its not a built-in, its an upgrade that occupies the cannon slot, but the price for the ion is in included in the price for the ship itself.
once again:
PS2 pilot is 21 points. (thats 18 points + 3)
now you could could slap on the ion cannon for 0 points OR the HLC for the usual 7 points OR the Autoblaster for the usual 5 points. of course you would take the ion in most cases. Regard this as a better 'penalty for having a attack value 2 ship with cannon slot'. And that is what the Assault Gunboat is about. Its a shielded heavy fighter with 2 laser cannons and 2 ion cannons ... and of course a ton of concussion missiles (I think its 2 launchers with 20 concussions each ...)
Mandatory= built in no matter how you reframe it.
Slots are not costed, at least not individually, more of added points here and there if a particular combo is big (as far as we can tell).
Why not make the ship 3 less points and let you have the option of buying or not? And again, ships don't get rules and special abilities, that's what named pilots and upgrades are for.
Mandatory= built in no matter how you reframe it.
Slots are not costed, at least not individually, more of added points here and there if a particular combo is big (as far as we can tell).
Why not make the ship 3 less points and let you have the option of buying or not? And again, ships don't get rules and special abilities, that's what named pilots and upgrades are for.
I think you don't understand the matter.
Of course we could go with 18 points for the base ship at ps2. Thats what it is worth actually with all characteristics.
But then 4 x HLC at 100 points would be possible. This may be a game breaker.
At this point it was suggested to rise its base point cost by 1 point, without adding any value to prevent this.
But then 3 x HLC + Jonus at 100 points would be possible. This may be a game breaker as well. (maybe don't since they had to stay in formation)
At this point it was suggested to rise its base point cost by 2 point, without adding any value to prevent this.
At this point I thought: Wow, the Advanced is also overpriced by 2 points and thus not competitive.
Now the same guy that stressed the Advanced was overcosted by 2 points, is about to rise the costs of the Gunboat by 2 points without adding any value. Sorry Juggler, buts thats the case ;-)
Then I suggested to rise the base cost by 3 points, but with adding value. The added value is the option to add an ion cannon for 0 points, which otherwise would cost 3 points.
Thaits fair and would solve possible balancing issues upfront. And it is good with the 'canon', because the Gunboat is an ion cannon ship. And it would fit into the X-Wing cost line.
And of course, ships DO get rules and special abilities. Never heared of the 'Imperial Aces' Expension Pack? Thats exactly what the Royal Guard Tie upgrade card is. Go and look for yourself http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/edge_news.asp?eidn=4357
Thank you for making my point for me; that is an upgrade, not a special ability.
I do understand the matter: it has been suggested that a ship be released with a cannon slot that has to be filled with an ion cannon and that cost is "built in" to the ships cost and would require special ability text. I think that is a bad idea because it breaks a few basic ship building "rules": forced modification/upgrades and ships getting special abilities rather pilots or upgrades.
If a model combo is possible that seems overpowered you have a few different options:
Increase point cost but add no value- might be ok, might create a new Advanced problem.
Increase point cost and add value- tough to do balance wise
Redistribute stats to improve value- good option. Extra PS is good on a missile ship, shields > Hull
Break established "rules" for the benefit of 1 model- terrible idea.
Its an upgrade card WITH a rule on it, or special ability. In this case the rule or special ability goes: "You may equip 2 Modufication Upgrade cards". It could also have been: "You may equip PTL for 2 points" ... or whatever rule or special which you can think of. So that rule is broken already by FFG - if there was any.
I am fine with
ps2 2-1-4-4 at 21 with the free ion option
OR even
ps2 2-2-4-4 at 21 points - but then other people would yell.
In the end as a Game Designer your job is not to make everyone happy because this is not possible. You decide what would be best for your and fix it that way. You breath in ideas and breath out rules and game elements, ready to test.
Now the same guy that stressed the Advanced was overcosted by 2 points, is about to rise the costs of the Gunboat by 2 points without adding any value. Sorry Juggler, buts thats the case ;-)
No, that's not what I said. I said base cost of a PS2 Gunboat should be 19, not 20. It's basically the same ship as the Y-wing, but we're upgrading the Turret slot to a Cannon slot. That's worth 1 point in my opinion, especially because its on a 2 attack ship.
I think you're trying a little too hard to come up with a convoluted way of balancing the ship. Simpler is better in this case, and has less chances of "unexpected side effects" that could themselves be unbalanced.
Maybe or maybe not. At this point, playtests would be needed to find the best solution for the details.
Im sure there will be ships with special rules sooner or later.
Well, clearly then, we need to playtest the following battle!
(100 points)
PS2 Gunboat + HLC x3
PS2 Gunboat + Ion Cannon
vs
(100 points)
Vader + Swarm tactics
Maarek Stele
Tempest Squadron Pilot x2
OK, ok, we need a real squad to test against. How about:
Blue Squadron + Advanced Sensors x4
P.S. That Advanced squad could actually be competitive if the Advanced had a built in FCS and Maarek could change one hit to a crit in addition to his vanilla ability.
Edited by MajorJugglerAnd 'my' variant with
4 x PS2 Gunboat + Ion + Concussion
4 x PS2 Gunboat + Ion + Tractor Beam
3 x PS4 Gunboat + HLC + Tractor Beam
vs
4 x Blue + Ion
4 x Rookie + PT
---
This all brought me a new Elite Upgrade:
Overstress Cannons (2):
Discard this card to perform an attack with your cannon upgrade twice. Discard the cannon upgrade card afterwards.
Maybe too cheezy with ions and too strong with HLC ... but interesting enough to be mentioned ^^
Now there's an idea! I think it needs to stress the ship too or maybe make them lose their next action/attack stage but this is pretty good.
Its an upgrade card WITH a rule on it, or special ability. In this case the rule or special ability goes: "You may equip 2 Modufication Upgrade cards". It could also have been: "You may equip PTL for 2 points" ... or whatever rule or special which you can think of. So that rule is broken already by FFG - if there was any.
It doesn't break the rule. The rule is that specific Upgrades and certain pilot special abilities trump general rules. The Upgrade card "Royal Gaurd" card text allows the interceptor equipped with it to take 2 Modification slot Upgrades by equipping a Title slot Upgrade. . What you suggested would place rules/special ability text on every ship of that model. That hasn't been done before and ruins a very elegant and modular system. You could make it a zero cost Title Upgrade card; but don't tie it in with point costing ALL models of that ship.
I just went digging through my old games closet to try and find my old TIE Fighter CDROM. I found the manual along the way and was poking through the starship specs. The B-wing and Assault Gunboat are both listed as having Ion Cannons built-in. We already have precedent for how the B-wing was handled (give it a cannon slot) so I think for consistency that's the only way we'll see Ions in the future, including the Gunboat.
And 'my' variant with
4 x PS2 Gunboat + Ion + Concussion
4 x PS2 Gunboat + Ion + Tractor Beam
3 x PS4 Gunboat + HLC + Tractor Beam
vs
4 x Blue + Ion
4 x Rookie + PT
---
How's your cost breakdown on those squads work?
Yeah, the B-Wing and the Assault Gunboat both were build as heavy fighters to take on capital ships.
The main difference was that the B-Wing had the better 'primary armament', the Assault Gunboat had more Ordnance (2 launchers and up to 40 concussion missiles I think) to take on the Rebel Fighters.
I don't know how to transport this fact into game. A special rule that makes Concussion Missiles cheaper?
2 tops slots and 2 missile slots just like the bomber has? ... no ... a special rule that you don't discard your ordnance? ... this would be more like the computer game ... difficult task ...
....
the squads goes like:
4 x PS2 Gunboat + Ion (21) + Concussion (4) = 100
4 x PS2 Gunboat + Ion (21) + Tractor Beam (3) = 96
3 x PS4 Gunboat (23) + HLC (7) + Tractor Beam (3) = 99
Edited by TheRealStarkillerWhat are your stats for the Tractor Beam at 3 points?
Edited by MajorJugglerTractor Beam (3 p):
When attacking at range 1 or 2, reduce the defender's agility value by 1 (to a minimum of 0),
if the defender is a small ship.
an option would be:
Tractor Beam (3 p):
When attacking from outside the defender's firing arc, reduce the defender's agility value by 1 (to a minimum of 0),
if the defender is a small ship.
In the computer games you used the tractor beam on an enemy when you were on his 6'.
So I think this would transport it well.