The Tractor Beam and that stuff could be a system upgrade. It is defiantly not as maneuverable as a TIE Bomber. I don't see any reason why it would have a cannon upgrade.

Of course it has a cannon upgrade. And of course its a beam upgrade slot. I don't just want to have a smaller copy of the shuttle

I think it is a mistake to try to make X-wing Miniture Games ships match X-wing/TIE Fighter Computer games. It just doesn't convert. The two games are not compatible.

Just compare the TIE Fighter vs the X-wing. The X-wing has more fire power, about the same maneuverability and speed, but it literally takes like 20 times as many hits to kill it. The TIE Fighter vis the TIE Advanced is an even better comparison, the TIE Advanced is way better or at least equal to the TIE Fighter in every measurable way, the TIE Defender is even more so. These work fine for a computer game. You just don't spend much time in a TIE fighter in any of the computer games, and when you are in one you aren't expected to do much dog fighting.

The comparison between mini and PC breaks down with upgrades as well. They just aren't at all the same thing. There are no droid upgrades in X-wing, no system upgrade, no elite pilot upgrades, no turret upgrades, or even cannon upgrades. None of the upgrades in the mini game exist the computer version of the game except for missile and torpedo upgrades, but those still don't really work the same. None of the upgrades in the computer version of the game exist in the mini version (except for the before mentioned missile/torpedoes).

I'll admit I forgot about the Gunboats having Ion Cannons although now that I think back on them they weren't any better than the ones on the Y-Wing while the B-Wing enjoyed triple blasts instead of just doubles. There's still the whole issue of putting a cannon slot on a 2 die fighter. If the cannon slot is a must then I'm thinking the primary attack should go to 3 dice and with it the cost increases as well; we can say its two lasers were stronger than they Y's.

Someone asked how to judge the turrets on a 2 attack ship. Here we can look at the range restrictions on turrets as one big downgrade from a cannon slot; with the secondary weapon ignoring the range boost for defense losing range 3 is not only an effective boost the defense it also removes a normal benefit of a secondary weapon at range 3. Moving in the Blaster Turret is certainly a step up within its range except for that little requirement to spend a Focus token just to attempt the attack; how does the math compare between 2 dice with focus and 3 without? The Ion Turret inside of range 3 may not be a step up in damage potential for 2 die primary attack but its use in a head on pass may not be so amazing; used from a ship's blind spot the ion turret is amazing but it also adds a lot to the cost. One last thing I'd say about the turrets on a 2 dice primary attack ship is that those 2 dice become 3 at range 1 leaving the turrets primary advantage as their ease in targetting.

If the Gunboat needs an Ion weapon I'd be more inclined to give it a turret instead of the cannon despite what that means for its targeting options.

Not sure where the "I think it should be" comes in but 5/2/8/4 for 22 points is a bit absurd.

A 2/2/4/4 with PL 2 for 22 points seems reasonable depending a little on the dial. It's Y-Wing cost plus an improved Stealth Device that doesn't fall off after one hit. Alternatively it can be seen as T/B cost with couple Shield upgrades thrown on but then a discount applied for losing Barrel Roll. While we know that "filling up" a ship with ordnance is risky I don't know if I'd give it two missile and two torpedo slots although I'm not opposed to giving two or three slots to work with. When it comes to actions Focus and TL should be the extent of things. Unlike the Y-Wing however the higher level pilots should be given the chance to pick up EP upgrades.

I forgot to add {sarcasm} there... well didn't forget, just didn't think it was needed. I edited it for ya!

Sarcasm on the points is understandable but the stat line is also a bit jaw dropping although I know I've seen plenty of people who believe a TIE Defender could have stats along those lines. The Defender may have been "broken" beyond belief when it first came out and nothing since then has really tried to live up to that except for those who want that cheat code to fly around it.

Exactly the folks I was poking fun at. Read my whole post. I think 2/2/4/4 is pretty solid and depending on what actions and upgrades you're going for 20-22 isn't off by much but is the death kiss for the advanced.

The Cygnus Spaceworks Alpha-class Xg-1 Star Wing, commonly referred to as the

Assault Gunboat . It was one of the Galactic Empire's first general-deployment starfighters to be equipped with deflector shields and a hyperdrive.

We all await the TIE Defender sooner or later. But before the Defender is released, the Avenger should be released. And it would make sense to release the Gunboat even before the Avenger.

So what role would the Gunboat fit in? Its the Imperial B-Wing I'd say.

With a length of 10 m it fits on a small base, its a bit sluggish to fly with and it has the cannon upgrade slot. Furthermore it has a beam weapon: the tractor beam. So either there will be a new slot type 'Beam Weapon Upgrade' or the Tractor beam will be a System Upgrade. In this case the Gunboat will get a System Upgrade slot, just like the B-Wing. I'll go for the Beam Weapon upgrade, since this would make the Gunboat unique until more ships with a beam slot arrive.

Lets start with the stats: 2 Laser cannons, usual for the Empire = Attack 2

Now without looking at Wookiepedia for stats from computer games, my stomach tells me its 2 in defence, the hull and shields are equal, so:

2-2-4-4

The dial is TIE Bomberish - maybe a bit slower.

Actions: TL, Focus

Upgrades: cannon, missile, missile, beam weapon

So, any ideas concerning the values so far and/or the point costs?

Sidenote on beam weapons:

There was the Tractor Beam, the Jamming Beam and the Decoy Beam.

Tractor Beam: A streaming magnetic energy band which stops the target from exceeding your current speed. In the latter half of TIE Fighter, and throughout X-Wing Alliance, tractor beam strength was increased so that they also pulled the target towards your ship.

Decoy Beam: When activated, your ship will not appear on enemy radar, and thus cannot be targeted. This beam weapon emits a general signal, so it doesnt need to be aimed at craft in order to work.

Jamming Beam: A concentrated energy signature that can stop the targeted vessel from using energy weapons. Large vessels may need to be hit by multiple jamming beams at once in order to cease weapons function.

The Tractor Beam could be used to decrease the defence value of the target ship (kind of Wedge's ability) This is discussed already in different topics.

The Decoy Beam could be used to prevent target locks on the own ship

The Jamming Beam could be used to decrease the firepower of the target ship

So its worthwhile to give the beam weapons an own upgrade slot, since we have more then just the tractor beam.

I would love to have the Star Wing in this game. Where did you get that pic of one?

My 2 cents for how I think it should blike... I think it should use the BLT A4 dial. It has better laser cannons than how you rep them HOWEVER we could get past this by giving the Star Wing the ability to fire both lasers and ions in one round at the same target maybe have it set up so it must use focus to fire both and because of energy useage it cant use beam equipment in same turn that it fired both lasers and ions.

I also think the A4 should retroactavily have the same rule for fireing primary and turret weapon in one turn at same target. Same goes for the TIE Defender.

I also think rules for decoy and jammer should be switched. Overall what you said is good. I guees FFG and LFL will have to make up some squadrons and pilots for the Star Wing altough I think Tau Squadron was a Star Wing Squadron..

Google gave me that pic

Interesting thought, you spend a focus action for 2 vanilla shots with you primary and your secondary weapon ...

I think you want to restrict this rule on ion cannons only ...

Fiering both laser and ions would require a few made up special rules - which can be considered as bad game design in a modular gameframe like in x-wing.

And there is no way to rise the attack value to 3. And there is no way that the Gunboat dont get its Ion Cannon.

What would be possible to come around this is to put the cost of the ion cannon into the ship and make the ion a free upgrade. So we start at 18 points + 3 points for the ion cannon.

PS2 Tau Squadron Pilot 2-1-4-4 (21 points) (Ion Cannon is a free upgrade)

So you can still equip a HLC, but you'd pay 10 points for it in the end. Or 8 points for the Autoblaster.

Simple but solves the problem.

Even more simplistic rules for the beams would be:

Jammer Beam (2 p):

When defending at range 1, the attacker don't get the +1 bonus.

Tractor Beam (3 p):

When attacking at range 1 or 2, reduce the defender's agility value by 1 (to a minimum of 0),

if the defender is a small ship.

Decoy Beam (1 p):

You can't be a target of a Target Lock action at range 3 or further.

Going this way, the beams are more passive modifiers, but effective in their own manners and unique.

But I think the best pro argument for such simple yet effective game elements are: The game flow is not slowed down by adding rules and game elements that are more complex then you get fun in return.

Let's talk about the Ion Cannon.

If we remember the Gunboat had an Ion Cannon in the game (probably in any other material that it was released in too) as did a few EU ships that people have discussed in these forums. The obvious assumption is if it had an Ion Cannon then it needs to be upgraded with an Ion Cannon. But in the X-Wing Mini game the Ion Cannon comes with Cannon upgrade, so pretty much every ship that can take an ion cannon can also take a Heavy Laser Cannon or Autoblaster. Frankly I think most of us agree that we don't want all these ship to have the access to these weapons.

So let's talk about what the Ion-Cannon did in the X-wing series of games. It was purely a strategic weapon. Basically instead of killing ships it disabled them. This was essential for accomplishing many of the missions. But it it weren't for mission objectives I don't think anyone would have used them. The Ion-Cannon in the Mini game is very different it is a tactical weapon. Sure it disables ships, but in a very different way.

I am not sure we need so many Ion-cannons. I would say they are not so necessary. Sure it would be best to make all the ships match as well as possible for the game, but this might be one more of those things where the Computer and the Mini games can't and shouldn't match.

People would use the ion cannon in the X-Wing game even when the target did NOT need to be disabled. Of course that was usually because they'd rather have additional lasers but the laser were discharged while the ion banks were full.

@Hrathen

Plz read #32 again up to the end.

Hello?! The Gunboat IS the Empire Ion cannon.

What is your problem with ion cannons? The only ions i regulary encounter are rebels with turrets.

The Sprays and the Shuttles tend to don't use them.

You just sound like: "Oh please don't release any further ships I haven't seen in the movies." ... you know there will be a lot of EU ships in the future. And there will be the Assault Gunboat sooner or later.

And this Assault Gunboat will have a cannon upgrade slot.

Great thread, I loved the TIE Fighter PC game and I so want a Gunboat for my Imperials. Starkiller, I agree with you, it needs to have a cannon. As for the game values, 2-1-4-4 sounds about right to me. I'm no expert in points cost though and frankly don't much care, I'd buy some of the buggers no matter what they cost and if they're playable :-)

I love that picture of the Gunboat you posted, one of the best-looking images of the Star Wing. Here's the source page with lots of other cool imperial stuff: http://fractalsponge.net/gallery/index.html

Sounds like:

2/2/4/4, PS 2- 22pts?

or

2/1/4/4- PS2- 18pts?

are pretty well agreed upon. Anyone have some data they would like to share to set us one way or the other?

Would the Gunboat have:

TL? - yes, I assume

F?- yes.

BR? I doubt it.

Boost?- I assume no.

Evade?- also no.

Slots:

EPT?- going with the imperials best pilots being in starfighters, probably no. Mareek is noted though.

Systems?- I say yes.

Cannon?- Yes. Ion only? Probably.

Missiles? Yes, probably 2.

Torpeados?- Yes, probably 2.

Bombs?

Crew?

New stuff-

Tractor beams?

Rockets?

Ion Torpeados?

Also, I assume we're talking about the xg-1 starwing and not the missileboat.

@Hrathen

Plz read #32 again up to the end.

Hello?! The Gunboat IS the Empire Ion cannon.

What is your problem with ion cannons? The only ions i regulary encounter are rebels with turrets.

The Sprays and the Shuttles tend to don't use them.

You just sound like: "Oh please don't release any further ships I haven't seen in the movies." ... you know there will be a lot of EU ships in the future. And there will be the Assault Gunboat sooner or later.

And this Assault Gunboat will have a cannon upgrade slot.

I read your post, it seems you went to a lot of trouble and bent, and rewrote a lot of rules. My point was that may not have all been necessary.

I don't have any problem with the Gunboat having ion cannons, but I don't think they should have HLC or AB, so I have a problem with them having the Cannon upgrade slot. I am also hesitant to support major rule changes from how the game already plays. Not that I think they are bad, but we just don't have the play testing support to know what unforeseen effect major rule changes may have.

I will confess that I am not a huge fan of EU. I mean there are lots of ships I like, but lots I don't. There are plenty of ships that I don't feel like they "fit" very well in the Star Wars Universe, or in the X-Wings Minis game. Granted that is my opinion, but that is the biggest problem with EU ships, everyone has an opinion. As for the requirement for FFG to release them I don't really agree. In 2015 we are going to get another movie, and then more movies every year or two for at least as long as this game lasts. I also think there is lots of expansion possibilities with new cards, upgrades and repaints. Do I think FFG will do more EU ships, yes, I am just saying that they don't have to if they don't want to. I do think they will try to focus on the ships that actually appear in the movies.

The most important point is that when a new ship is released in the X-Wing Minis game. And I think the place the ship fits in the Star Wars universe should be reflect to its place in the game. That is more important to me than any specification matching. One of my favorite things about this game is how each new ship or expansion added to the game but never supplanted the X-Wing and TIE Fighter as the two main ships of the Star Wars Universe.

I'm thinking about this a lot today apparently.

The Starwing needs to have 1 agility to not make both the bomber and the advanced obsolete. At 2 agility it's just a bomber with different options that doesn't dog fight as well. At 2 agility and those HP it is also likely to be as durable if not more so than the advanced. Again, not as good a dogfighter but it wouldn't need to be with it's payload.

BUT, at 2pts more would the bomber still see play?

I say put the lowest PS at 3... Start a trend where the best of the best are the only one flying some of these advanced ships (changes dynamics a lot).

OR

Put the lowest PS at 1 and make it 2 PS increments between most pilots. Putting them on the Odd numbers (1, 3, 5, 6 unique, 7 for Mr. Steele) means different firing times than the bombers (2, 4, 6, 7).

I read your post, it seems you went to a lot of trouble and bent, and rewrote a lot of rules . My point was that may not have all been necessary.

lol ... where did this happen?

OK, so I will start out by saying I think this is an ugly a** tug boat of a ship. (Good, feel better now).

Stats, I'd be at 2/1/4/3 PS 1 basic and 19 pts.

I'd have the dial the same or similar to the HWK-290.

Systems Upgrade

TL, Focus

1 missile slot, 1 torp slot.

1 crew

Small Base

That's my take.

OK, so I will start out by saying I think this is an ugly a** tug boat of a ship. (Good, feel better now).

Stats, I'd be at 2/1/4/3 PS 1 basic and 19 pts.

I'd have the dial the same or similar to the HWK-290.

Systems Upgrade

TL, Focus

1 missile slot, 1 torp slot.

1 crew

Small Base

That's my take.

I assume you mean 1 cannon, not 1 crew

yep, cannon, sry

np ^^

The Gunboat isn't a TIE, yet it isn't a Shuttle. It's design and its purpose is special for the Empire

As a side quest, I come up with the beam weapon upgrades:

There is the option to make the effect situational (this tends to be the easy way) or ongoing (more complex, more synergy and side effects, possibly new markers needed).

Lets try to find an 'easy' way to get those bad boys into game. The easy way is the better one in most cases

Jammer Beam:

When defending, you may receive 1 stress token to lower the attack value by 2, if the attacker is in your front arc.

If you have at least 1 stress token, you cannot use this ability.

Tractor Beam:

When attacking , you may receive 1 stress token to reduce the defender's agility value by 1 (to a minimum of 0).

If you have at least 1 stress token, you cannot use this ability.

Decoy Beam:

After a target lock was acquired on your ship, you may receive 1 stress token to remove a target lock on your ship.

If you have at least 1 stress token, you cannot use this ability.

In this attempt all beam weapons produce stress tokens as a limiter.

So Yorr could come in handy.

Here are some suggestions, throwing these on the wall to see what sticks.

Decoy Beam (4 points)

At the start of the combat round, you may receive 1 stress token to activate this Decoy Beam. If you have at least 1 stress token, you cannot activate the Decoy Beam. For the rest of this round, all attacks against this ship roll one less attack dice (to a minimum of 0). You may also remove 1 enemy target lock from this ship immediately after activating Decoy Beam.

I buffed Decoy beam from your first suggestion, since it talks about ships not being able to target you, so I would reduce enemy attacks across the board with it. We also already have Expert Handling, which does the same thing as your description, with the added bonus of a barrel roll.

Jamming Beam (5 points)

Action: You may receive 1 stress token to place 1 Jamming Token on 1 enemy ship within range 2 of your primary firing arc. If you have at least 1 stress token, you cannot use the Jamming Beam.

Jamming Token description

Small ships with 1 or more Jamming Tokens on them cannot perform primary or secondary attacks this round. Large ships with 2 or more Jamming Tokens on them cannot perform primary or secondary attacks this round. At the end of the combat round, remove all Jamming Tokens from play.

This is the only beam that I would consider costing an action, because:

1. You have to continually focus your beam on the target
2. It costs the opponent an attack, which is huge.

Related question: could you use a Jamming Beam on someone and also shoot at them? I'm still debating how (un)balanced this is. Theoretically you could just jam them all day long and take pot-shots at them until they're dead.

Tractor beam (2 points)

When attacking an enemy ship that has the same size base as yours or smaller, and it is within your primary firing arc at range 1, reduce its agility by 1 (to a minimum of 0).

I recall Tractor beam only working at close range, so I would give it a range 1 requirement. It would probably be overkill to also hand out a stress token at that point. It probably gives you a similar type of damage boost as Fire Control System, and also has use limitations, so I would cost it at 2 points. This would buff cluster missiles. I have also been thinking about making "Rockets" something like the following (particulars need analysis to determine balancing):

Rockets (6 points)

[requires 2 missile slots or 2 torpedo slots]

Range: 1-2. Spend your target lock to perform this attack. Roll 5 attack dice. Your may change any one die to a critical hit. Your opponent rolls twice as many defense dice as normal.

Maarek Stele used the Tractor beam to allow him to hit higher agility targets with Rockets, so I think these both make sense. Tractor beam would reduce the agility before rockets multiplies by two, so X-wings would be (2-1)*2 = 2, TIEs would be (3-1)*2 = 4, and B-Wings would b (1-1)*2 = 0.

Google gave me that pic

Interesting thought, you spend a focus action for 2 vanilla shots with you primary and your secondary weapon ...

I think you want to restrict this rule on ion cannons only ...

Fiering both laser and ions would require a few made up special rules - which can be considered as bad game design in a modular gameframe like in x-wing.

And there is no way to rise the attack value to 3. And there is no way that the Gunboat dont get its Ion Cannon.

What would be possible to come around this is to put the cost of the ion cannon into the ship and make the ion a free upgrade. So we start at 18 points + 3 points for the ion cannon.

PS2 Tau Squadron Pilot 2-1-4-4 (21 points) (Ion Cannon is a free upgrade)

So you can still equip a HLC, but you'd pay 10 points for it in the end. Or 8 points for the Autoblaster.

Simple but solves the problem.

Well I feel that FFG will keep making special rules for ships as the go on. Examples of this are boost, bombs, ions, and a slew of new weapons.

For the Star Wing, TIE Defender, and BLT A4 retroactivly, they should have a new action "Fire Linked Weapons" it would follow what I wrote above, you can fire all energy weapons at the same target with the price of a focus tolken, and beam weapons cant be used. I am sure we could have a named pilot ignore the last bit of rule I posted.

Instead of having a a cannon upgrade slot I think it and the Defender should come with strength 2 Ion cannons.

np ^^

The Gunboat isn't a TIE, yet it isn't a Shuttle. It's design and its purpose is special for the Empire

Yup it is a multipurpose craft, fighter, interceptor, attack, anti ship.

It has good manuverability its just its size causes issues. Since it is a gunship it prob also took over the the ground support job the LAAT had in the Republic. In my opinion it is one of the coolest looking ships in SW. I had hope that pic of yours was a 50:1 model kit.

So let's talk about what the Ion-Cannon did in the X-wing series of games. It was purely a strategic weapon. Basically instead of killing ships it disabled them. This was essential for accomplishing many of the missions. But it it weren't for mission objectives I don't think anyone would have used them. The Ion-Cannon in the Mini game is very different it is a tactical weapon. Sure it disables ships, but in a very different way.

Actully the reason a ship would use those weapons linked with other weapons during a interception or dog fight agianst a craft it seeks to kill would be because the firing zone becomes bigger, their is a less a chance of missing a target with the attack. If it happens to be the ions that strikes the enemy craft you are closer to victory because you have weakend the shields or disrupted some systems if not all.

If I were going to do some kind of fire-link between lasers and ion cannons in this game I simply have the normal laser damage also give an ion token. When you roll that 3 dice for instead of only taking a maximum of one damage plus the token you could be dealing three damage and the token if things all go your way.