First off sorry for ALL the text.

Now the problem I face is one of my characters Is a deathwatch space marine (yes I know, stupid mistake but its my first time GMing and seeing as how he was agreeing to give up all his gear and the solo mode etc abilities I at the time agreed to it) and i didn't really have much choice as he was either playing this or nothing at all (trying to keep his number of characters down as he works offshore and misses a lot of games anyway). As a group consisting of close friends who mainly meet up to game, I allowed it. So he is a Dark Angel, working undercover, as a specialist light scout, for some reason or other because reasons.

now the problem I have is that almost no way to hurt him without increasing the power level of the game to frankly ridiculous heights (plasma, plasma everywhere).

I've come up with a theory but thought I would run it by the forums, see what you guys think/ any advice you guys have.

Basically if a gun by passes your Armour it instantly does a minimum of one damage, not a massive change but im trying not to outright murder the other characters who do not have the ridiculous im a space marine hear me roar (and by god the implants!).

So the question is, does this make things more challenging (still nowhere near lethal but at least it can hurt him) without being a huge factor for the normal PC? any other suggestions (other than refusing him the SM which at this point would be a **** move and not what i want to go with) for how to deal with this?

How.. how will he be undercover as part of a freakin' Regiment? How will the rest of the squad not notice that he is one of the God-Emperor's Angels of Death, worthy of reverence who they should all defer to in his great wisdom?

I realize that it's not particularly helpful with your issue, but I do not foresee any way this goes well.

Yeah, well essential i was going with the fact that not many people in the universe have actually seen space marines, let alone out of their Armour so there is the possibility that he may pass for a human (admittedly a rather large guy, standing at about seven footish and made of pecks, however if a fallen can pass for human so can he was the argument) however as soon as someone wishes to do a medicae on him they will notice that he most definitively isn't human. Weather they add one and one together and get 2 (hes a SM, report him to the commissar) or 3 (hes a mutant report him to the commissar) is anyone guess (depending on suspicion level and weather its a PC or not) of course i foresee that he may try to 'silence' said individual, one way or another. Basically its a giant headache.

Not that I haven't got ideas for how to deal with the situation that it becomes apparent that he is a space marine, simply put his cover is blown and he has to leave (I figure this way I can remove the problem and keep the player, hopefully, as it will be his fault). Also im having fun pointing out that space marines while physically extremely powerful and very capable warriors, aren't so good and the humdrum soldiery of the Guardsman, simply put not knowing how stuff works in such a large scale operating bureaucratic system.

but yes I also do not foresee it ending well (we all make mistakes, its best just to try and work with it and see what i can do with the situation)

Well I hope you gave him the Only War variant of Unnatural Toughness (& Strength) in which case he would have Unnatural Strength and Toughness (4)

One word...Long Las....the weapon has Felling (4) which negates his Unnatural toughness completely and has accurate which would burn through a lot of his ungodly amount of wounds...

I'm GMing Black Crusade with a mixed CSM/human group and hellguns are perfect for this.

For the love of God, use a modified Chaos Marine from BC, not a DW marine. You want him to have Solo Modes and True Grit (the OW version no less!) and immunity to Blood Loss on top of everything else?

Anyway, and I realize this doesn't help ., but I think they problem is inherent in using SMs in Only War. SMs are supposed to be much more powerful than Guardsmen and the weapons that will kill an SM will annihilate a Guardsman. You've stuck a 10th-level character in a party of 1st-level ones.

It works in BC because humans can do things that SMs cannot (like infiltrate) but OW is all about, well, war.

BTW I think the Black Carapace is probably visible on an unarmoured Space Marine, making the being undercover thing a little difficult unless you go fully covered, which is unlikely given that I assume that IG regiments live communally AFAIK..

Yeah, i think sneaking the Space Marine into the game will end up hurting more than might've been expected. Not trying to beat that horse, but they don't, often, do the same things Guard are used for.

I'm GMing Black Crusade with a mixed CSM/human group and hellguns are perfect for this.

For the love of God, use a modified Chaos Marine from BC, not a DW marine. You want him to have Solo Modes and True Grit (the OW version no less!) and immunity to Blood Loss on top of everything else?

Anyway, and I realize this doesn't help ., but I think they problem is inherent in using SMs in Only War. SMs are supposed to be much more powerful than Guardsmen and the weapons that will kill an SM will annihilate a Guardsman. You've stuck a 10th-level character in a party of 1st-level ones.

It works in BC because humans can do things that SMs cannot (like infiltrate) but OW is all about, well, war.

BTW I think the Black Carapace is probably visible on an unarmoured Space Marine, making the being undercover thing a little difficult unless you go fully covered, which is unlikely given that I assume that IG regiments live communally AFAIK..

After they gave us "real" CSM stats, in Enemies of the Imperium, I wish that they had tossed in an "average" Astartes; I know that, for the most part, they should match up to the CSM, but with all the copy/pastes, I would've appreciated this one.

I don't know if I think Space Marines are for "war". They are cutting off war. They are still rare enough, and such that a long, protracted war often seems to be their greatest foe. Guardsmen, on the other hand, are great for protracted conflicts.

As for the Black Carapace, I've never found a "great" description of it, but I think most of it is subdermal. There might be some interface ports on the skin, to allow for the CNS to link with the armor's machine spirit, but they still look "Human", for the most part, just massively big. I don't know; I've never seen a picture of a Space Marine without his armor, a robe, a toga, or whatever they otherwise wear (when I played a game of Space Marines d20, while we were aboard a frigate, we usually removed armor, and wore rather simple robes; don't remember, 7 years later, if they were color-of-Chapter, but my Grey Knight wore frosted gray.) I've done a picture search, but ones that show what looks like a dark breastplate-like thing ALSO make their Marine look like a stupid, raging, steroid marine, more like the General, from DC Comics then the usually rather decent-looking Astartes, seen in their official art.

Yeah, i think sneaking the Space Marine into the game will end up hurting more than might've been expected. Not trying to beat that horse, but they don't, often, do the same things Guard are used for.

I'm GMing Black Crusade with a mixed CSM/human group and hellguns are perfect for this.

For the love of God, use a modified Chaos Marine from BC, not a DW marine. You want him to have Solo Modes and True Grit (the OW version no less!) and immunity to Blood Loss on top of everything else?

Anyway, and I realize this doesn't help ., but I think they problem is inherent in using SMs in Only War. SMs are supposed to be much more powerful than Guardsmen and the weapons that will kill an SM will annihilate a Guardsman. You've stuck a 10th-level character in a party of 1st-level ones.

It works in BC because humans can do things that SMs cannot (like infiltrate) but OW is all about, well, war.

BTW I think the Black Carapace is probably visible on an unarmoured Space Marine, making the being undercover thing a little difficult unless you go fully covered, which is unlikely given that I assume that IG regiments live communally AFAIK..

After they gave us "real" CSM stats, in Enemies of the Imperium, I wish that they had tossed in an "average" Astartes; I know that, for the most part, they should match up to the CSM, but with all the copy/pastes, I would've appreciated this one.

I don't know if I think Space Marines are for "war". They are cutting off war. They are still rare enough, and such that a long, protracted war often seems to be their greatest foe. Guardsmen, on the other hand, are great for protracted conflicts.

As for the Black Carapace, I've never found a "great" description of it, but I think most of it is subdermal. There might be some interface ports on the skin, to allow for the CNS to link with the armor's machine spirit, but they still look "Human", for the most part, just massively big. I don't know; I've never seen a picture of a Space Marine without his armor, a robe, a toga, or whatever they otherwise wear (when I played a game of Space Marines d20, while we were aboard a frigate, we usually removed armor, and wore rather simple robes; don't remember, 7 years later, if they were color-of-Chapter, but my Grey Knight wore frosted gray.) I've done a picture search, but ones that show what looks like a dark breastplate-like thing ALSO make their Marine look like a stupid, raging, steroid marine, more like the General, from DC Comics then the usually rather decent-looking Astartes, seen in their official art.

There is a "generic" loyalist Space Marine in the BC rulebook. I would use that and remove all of the abilities/skills that SMs do not get by default in BC (so remove True Grit, for instance).

I've always thought of the carapace as, well, black, running up the legs and arms, covering the torso, and running up the back of the neck. (?) Plus interface ports are going to kind of stick out (ha ha).

Anyway, black carapace or no black carapace, Marine physiology includes a fused rib cage and so forth that sure as hell are going to be noticeable in the showers.

Okay so long las is an option. Do people that know more about this kind of thing know how likely it is for long las to be standard equipment? like every unit having one or would that be the domain of the more specialist units? yes I am using the (+4) rather than (x2) variant of unnatural toughness, so that's a thing. I have specifically told him his solo mode and squad mode abilities are just out, he can't use them. However he did pick up one guy and kinda merged him with another by the application of brute force, would that be something that the rest of the squad should maybe pick up on and report (at the very least I can get a commissar involved and get his cover blown kinda thing at the end of the first mission, if the squad report it). Yeah as for the art I've seen most space marines look like a roid raging comic character out of Armour, but in a universe where biological implants (and specifically the muscle graft one) exist i thought he might be able to get away with it as long as he didn't act too super human (which he is kinda doing a horrible job of and to be honest of being subtle as well, keeps dropping SM jargon into conversations).

Oh and the squad have only just been deployed on their first mission (old soldiers) and this is his first deployment with them so he hasn't had any time in the barracks as yet.

How would a simple guy in a guard regiment get huge muscle implants?

How can you miss a huge fused rib cage?

cause he wears a flak cloak, so that kinda covers it up (and most of him) or at least that's what i figure. Its more going to be a problem at proper camp situations where showering/ not wearing an armored tent (I mean really, what the hell is a flack cloak exactly, its the weirdest idea of an armor, i mean i could get mesh...but flak isn't that kinda solid?) come up. I will address that problem when it comes up (assuming I have to and the squad don't just report him at the end of the mission).

"Hit the showers, men!"

"I... I have to go pee. For a long time."

EDIT: if you must do this, I recommend...

using the Chaos Space Marine template from Black Crusade.

This means

2 Fate Points, not the 5 (!) possible in Deathwatch

About 4 or 5 fewer Wounds

NO Unarmed Master

NO rerolls on Toxic Tests (just Resistance (Poisons))

NO immunity to Blood Loss

NO immunity to Fear (I would give him Resistance (Fear) though since all BC characters effectively have that)

NO Killing Strike, True Grit, Deathwatch Training, Resistance (Psychic Powers), or Forbidden Lore (Xenos)

He will still be unbalanced as hell, but less so. The player might be sad though.

As for the Black Carapace, I've never found a "great" description of it, but I think most of it is subdermal. There might be some interface ports on the skin, to allow for the CNS to link with the armor's machine spirit, but they still look "Human", for the most part, just massively big. I don't know; I've never seen a picture of a Space Marine without his armor, a robe, a toga, or whatever they otherwise wear

As with most details, it may differ depending on what source you're looking at, but GW's original material does describe it as subdermal.

The fluff is malleable. Make use of this liberty, if it benefits the group and the players don't have a problem with whatever interpretation you implement. Besides, in 40k, "human" is not automatically "human". Aside from various other mutants such as Necromunda Scalies (who can grow even larger than Marines), people look different on almost every world - and the lack of interstellar contact for the average populace means that people will generally be very ignorant. If your Marine says he's a Catachan, who would actually call him a liar? Chances are that most soldiers won't even have ever heard of that world.

Okay so long las is an option. Do people that know more about this kind of thing know how likely it is for long las to be standard equipment? like every unit having one or would that be the domain of the more specialist units? yes I am using the (+4) rather than (x2) variant of unnatural toughness, so that's a thing. I have specifically told him his solo mode and squad mode abilities are just out, he can't use them. However he did pick up one guy and kinda merged him with another by the application of brute force, would that be something that the rest of the squad should maybe pick up on and report (at the very least I can get a commissar involved and get his cover blown kinda thing at the end of the first mission, if the squad report it). Yeah as for the art I've seen most space marines look like a roid raging comic character out of Armour, but in a universe where biological implants (and specifically the muscle graft one) exist i thought he might be able to get away with it as long as he didn't act too super human (which he is kinda doing a horrible job of and to be honest of being subtle as well, keeps dropping SM jargon into conversations).

Oh and the squad have only just been deployed on their first mission (old soldiers) and this is his first deployment with them so he hasn't had any time in the barracks as yet.

Maybe it got covered, but WHY is he undercover, as part of a Regiment? As an aside, once he gets caught at it, say when the Catachans notice he has very little personality or relatability to people like them (Space Marines, in my eyes, really can't interact with "regular" people; they aren't trained to do it. Even if I taught Coco the Gorilla sign language, so we can communicate to some degree, and even if I dress her up in human attire, she still won't be able to relate concepts like I do), what can anyone do about it? That Commissar, that Colonel, that fill in the blank officer rank can't boss a Space Marine around; even a Lord Militant of a Crusade, practically a little Warmaster, at least of a possibly very large area, or a full empowered Inquisitor Lord (curse you GW) can only make courteous suggestions and sincere requests. "Go ahead guy who doesn't clear my shoulder. Go tell that Commissar I look suspicious to you. He knows it; Helen Keller knows it, and neither one will say a word, because there's nothing for them to say."

Who are you fightning with? If its orks, then it should be OK, they deal enough damage already.

If youre fighting with severian dominate, remember that each full squad should have some specialist weapon, like plasma, metla, long las or grenade launcher with krak grenades. Also They can have some heavy weapon teams with heavier weapons, that should have no problem hurting your space marine. If there is a seargeant he'll have a chainsword, which can also hurt your marine a little. Also storm troopers with hellguns.

Well one issue here is the following.

In Black Crusade, where you have SMs alongside mere mortals, it is assumed in combat situations that the enemies concentrate their heavy weapons and fire in general on the SMs, barrin g unusual circumstances like a human who concentrates an even greater threat, such as somebody throwing around heavy-duty psychic powers or toting a heavy weapon. Because the enemies are presumably not idiots and see the giant guy in power armour as the main threat.

However this isn't going to work in this scenario, because it is assumed that the SM is not that visibly different from the other characters and so is not going to be a fire magnet. He's just a big guy. So there is no reason for the enemies to use plasma, melta, krak grenades on the SM instead of the other characters other than GM fiat.

As a suggestion, use the Only War version of Unnatural Characteristics and give him Unnatural Strength (2) and Unnatural Toughness (2). That would brings his Toughness into line with the Ogryns and at least make him a little more manageable.

@bogi - of course not! Enemies should target the psyker first, and that would be very smart thing to do.

With all his might, the SM still sucks, when compared to simple human psyker, and OW psyker mechanics.

@bogi - of course not! Enemies should target the psyker first, and that would be very smart thing to do.

With all his might, the SM still sucks, when compared to simple human psyker, and OW psyker mechanics.

Depends on power level and powers of the psyker and SM, as well as range and so forth.

I am assuming this is a starting game (?), in which psykers are not that impressive. (Of course by the time the psyker gets up to PR5 or so the SM will ahve True Grit and Mighty Shot and and and...)

I suppose the situation here is made somewhat better by the SM's lack of his normal gear.

Yeah its a starting game. will point out that the space marine is still paying SM exp costs for his stuff (no cheap freebies was part of the deal) so he will be out skilled by the human characters (or at least that is what i hope) very quickly. The SM also has subpar gear for the group in total (the group is rocking BQ Flak, AV 5, while he is in his Flack tent, AV 3) though he is armed with the same gun as the rest of the group (which is a custom MK Las carbine,) I tried to balance it by giving any player who wanted it custom equipment to start with from Hammer, some did really well out of this including an accurate melta gun with a range of almost nothing and a heavy stubber that basically fires rusty nails (has the crippling quality and some penalties to ranged AP) etc. so they do have shiney toys to play with. I just hope its enough to at least make it feel sorta balanced. Yeah it Dominate to begin with followed by dark eldar... so .. yeah...

To be honest the exact purview of a space marine is a bit debatable different fluff says different things, however at the point of discovery if the player says 'what you going to do about it' the answer is rule zero, the space marine leaves because i say so. As for his reason for being there he is investigating rumored Fallen activity on the front to see if there is any truth to them (one way of doing it is if he is discovered the fallen WILL know about it and leave the area, therefore meaning he has no reason to stay. that could work.

so how common are Long las anyway? would you say its one a unit? one a platoon even?

so how common are Long las anyway? would you say its one a unit? one a platoon even?

In the tabletop Codex Imperial Guard, they are available as a squad upgrade, so potentially one per squad... with special weapons squads carrying up to three. Depends on the Favored Basic Weapon of the enemy forces ultimately.

As a suggestion, use the Only War version of Unnatural Characteristics and give him Unnatural Strength (2) and Unnatural Toughness (2). That would brings his Toughness into line with the Ogryns and at least make him a little more manageable.

If you use the Only War versions of Unnatural Characteristics, the conversion-rate isn't straight over. From memory, I believe an Unnatural Characteristics of 2 in Deathwatch or earlier equals an Unnatural Characteristics of 6 or 7 in Only War.

I might be way off on that one, though - I don't have the books up at the moment.

CSM in Enemies of the Imperium have Unnatural Strength and Toughness (+4). So DW marines would propably have the same.

As a suggestion, use the Only War version of Unnatural Characteristics and give him Unnatural Strength (2) and Unnatural Toughness (2). That would brings his Toughness into line with the Ogryns and at least make him a little more manageable.

If you use the Only War versions of Unnatural Characteristics, the conversion-rate isn't straight over. From memory, I believe an Unnatural Characteristics of 2 in Deathwatch or earlier equals an Unnatural Characteristics of 6 or 7 in Only War.

I might be way off on that one, though - I don't have the books up at the moment.

Orks and SMs both have UTx2 in pre-BC stuff, SMs have +4 and Orks +2 in BC/OW. On the other hand Orks all have True Grit, which you could argue functionally makes them more or less equivalent.

This stuff is all rooted in a conversion of the TT stats, but it's not a straight, for instance, S4 = 1d10+5 damage. Because things like the Flame Quality and Tearing have to be taken into account. So SMs and Orks both have T4 in TT; in BC/OW SMs have higher TB but don't have True Grit, so it more or less balances out.

As a suggestion, use the Only War version of Unnatural Characteristics and give him Unnatural Strength (2) and Unnatural Toughness (2). That would brings his Toughness into line with the Ogryns and at least make him a little more manageable.

If you use the Only War versions of Unnatural Characteristics, the conversion-rate isn't straight over. From memory, I believe an Unnatural Characteristics of 2 in Deathwatch or earlier equals an Unnatural Characteristics of 6 or 7 in Only War.

I might be way off on that one, though - I don't have the books up at the moment.

Yes, I know... what I'm suggesting is to change that. Instead of giving Space Marines Unnatural Toughness (4)... which just carries over the basic problem of the earlier edition Unnatural Toughness (x2)... reduce Unnatural Toughness for Marines so that it is in line with the Unnatural Toughness possessed by Orgyn. Ogryn, who are actually tougher than Space Marines based on the background, have Unnatural Toughness (2) in Only War. Ork Boyz, who are as tough as Tactical Marines, have Unnatural Toughness (2) in Only War. Therefore, give Space Marines Unnatural Toughness (2).

I have actually tried this. I ran a group of five Deahtwatch Space Marines with Unnatural Strength and Toughness (2) and regular, not Astartes, weapons, though the Against the Savages mission in Only War. The Space Marines were impressively strong and tough (twice as strong and tough as normal humans, SB and TB 6 vs SB and TB 3 afterall) but still challenged by the orks at the refinery. It was a fun game.

Ok, Just for the record, I think you've stepped in it allowing an Astartes in your group! That said there is a situation where your SM might be Liaising with a standard IG regiment. That is as a Scout (Which sort of fits the gear you've given him.) An Astartes Scout could even be a DW marine (Which is really nothing more than a veteran Marine) Sergeant. If this is the case he could be acting as a lead element for an operation his chapter is conducting. (probably Storm Wardens but almost anything is possible!) Since every Codex compliant chapter has an entire company of scouts (10th company) this is a real possibility. If you want your player to not be the Scout Sergeant then could also be a regular scout assigned to the squad much like Green berets are IRL and stormtroopers are in 40k/OW.

Mechanically, This character would NOT be a full blown Astartes! His WS and BS would be in the same range as the guardsman characters (Albeit on the higher end probably). He would not yet have the Black Carapace so you could justify him only having Unnat. Toughness of (+2). His weapons would be as follows: An Astartes combat knife OR bolt pistol AND one of the following: An Astartes bolter (Same as legion version in BC) OR, An Astartes Shotgun OR, An Astartes Sniper rifle. He would also have to Astartes Frag grenades and two Astartes Krak grenades. Ammunition for any of these weapons could not be replenished until he linked up with his chapter again or at least go to where they have set up a dedicated supply point (Which will not be with the IG regiment!). If the Scout is the Sergeant then he will also have access to the chapter's armory (By reknown) but I don't know if you want to deal with that. All scouts have Astartes scout carapace armor.

Please not that if you use this model the Astartes character's motivation and mission may be very different from the rest of the group's. SM chapters often use the initiate's time as a scout to expose them to battlefield conditions without unduly risking them before they are ready. Service with a recon unit of IG would fit this bill nicely but fighting a line of battle engagement would not! (That's what full blown Battle brothers are for!) Remember that for most SM Scouts, participating in combat operations is considered a privilege that they must earn! (Not likely the view of standard IG infantry! ) Good role playing is really important here! The Neophyte Space marine is going to have a hard time coming to grips with many of the mortal's frailties and foibles since he no longer really experiences them the same way!

Finally, If you are playing a Neophyte scout you have a built in out: Once your Scout reaches the point where he is qualified to be promoted to full battle-brother, (Say, WS and BS 50+) his chapter will pluck the character out of the game and send him back to the chapter. For the character, This is what he's been working for for many years and thus it will be a joyous occasion for him (Thus player whining that he is losing his character are irrelevant! The character most definitely does NOT feel that way!)

On a side note: Maybe it wasn't communicated well so maybe I don't understand the situation but: Players who tell me that they are going to play a game breaking character or they're going to "Take their ball and go home" are usually invited to do so! I have always maintained that if the group wants to play something different than me that's one thing. If one player is looking to be a PIA because they're not getting their way than they will be a PIA throughout the game! I hope that's not what's happening here!