Going off the DH2 aptitude calculator sheet, assuming you had neither Leadership nor Fellowship (the two always go together), you'd spend 2100 XP to get both talents and another 3600 to max out Command for a total of 5700 XP.

With just Leadership, this drops to 2000 for max Command (assuming you don't start with it) and 1650 for the talents, totaling 3650. To buy everything tied to Leadership, you save 2050 XP by having the Aptitude. That's not really a lot of XP. It's worth noting that if you had Fellowship instead, the cost would be the same, and the Fellowship Aptitude applies to more options and is thus more useful.

Just for grins, if you had both Fellowship and Leadership, you're looking at just 1500 for the talents and 1000 for command, totaling 2500 for a savings of 3200XP. Not a small amount, but not great.

It comes down to a question of how long you expect your character to last. Are you going to get more than 5700XP? You're better off without Leadership because after that, having it doesn't help you at all and only makes other things more expensive.

[...]

It comes down to a question of how long you expect your character to last. Are you going to get more than 5700XP? You're better off without Leadership because after that, having it doesn't help you at all and only makes other things more expensive.

It's still a matter of what character you want to make; maybe I want all the Leadership Skills and Talents, yet no Fieldcraft, or maybe only one that has Fieldcraft.

The only thing of worth that you pointed out is that Fellowship is objectively better than Leadership, since they always go together. That's an issue that they should try to resolve, unless they'll concede that Characteristics Aptitudes are meant to be slightly more versatile than Professional Aptitudes.

A bit of a knee-jerk idea that I just thought of; maybe Aptitudes should have minor abilities or bonuses associated with them, where somewhat underrepresented Aptitudes receive slightly better ones? May just be overcomplicating things, though, possibly waving red herrings in the face of people that haven't digested the system entirely yet.

Going off the DH2 aptitude calculator sheet, assuming you had neither Leadership nor Fellowship (the two always go together), you'd spend 2100 XP to get both talents and another 3600 to max out Command for a total of 5700 XP.

With just Leadership, this drops to 2000 for max Command (assuming you don't start with it) and 1650 for the talents, totaling 3650. To buy everything tied to Leadership, you save 2050 XP by having the Aptitude. That's not really a lot of XP. It's worth noting that if you had Fellowship instead, the cost would be the same, and the Fellowship Aptitude applies to more options and is thus more useful.

Just for grins, if you had both Fellowship and Leadership, you're looking at just 1500 for the talents and 1000 for command, totaling 2500 for a savings of 3200XP. Not a small amount, but not great.

It comes down to a question of how long you expect your character to last. Are you going to get more than 5700XP? You're better off without Leadership because after that, having it doesn't help you at all and only makes other things more expensive.

What do you mean 2,050 xp isn't a lot!? People are complaining about starting with 600 xp and you are saying 2050 is not that much? In this case, it's well worth taking Leadership. They just need to add more worthwhile talents.

[...]

It comes down to a question of how long you expect your character to last. Are you going to get more than 5700XP? You're better off without Leadership because after that, having it doesn't help you at all and only makes other things more expensive.

It's still a matter of what character you want to make; maybe I want all the Leadership Skills and Talents, yet no Fieldcraft, or maybe only one that has Fieldcraft.

The only thing of worth that you pointed out is that Fellowship is objectively better than Leadership, since they always go together. That's an issue that they should try to resolve, unless they'll concede that Characteristics Aptitudes are meant to be slightly more versatile than Professional Aptitudes.

A bit of a knee-jerk idea that I just thought of; maybe Aptitudes should have minor abilities or bonuses associated with them, where somewhat underrepresented Aptitudes receive slightly better ones? May just be overcomplicating things, though, possibly waving red herrings in the face of people that haven't digested the system entirely yet.

I disagree with this argument that just because a character isn't going to buy all of the skills doesn't mean they should all be relatively equivalent. This argument was already had over the xp values of starting skills differing based on starting aptitudes, but I think I'm the only person who cares about that point.

However, I would agree with cps that there is no compelling reason to NOT have the aptitudes be equivalent. There are:

9 Characteristic Aptitudes

9 Other Aptitudes (one of which is Psyker)

9 Characteristics

28 Skills

24 Tier 1 Talents*

32 Tier 2 Talents*

27 Tier 3 Talents*

*counting the Updates

Ideally , you would have something like 3 each of Skills, Tier One, Tier Two, and Tier Three talents. Here is what we actually have:

Weapon Skill : 20

1 Characteristic/s: Weapon Skill

1 Skill: Parry

3 Tier 1: Ambidextrous, Disarm, Takedown

11 Tier 2: Combat Master, Counter Attack, Devastating Assault, Hatred, Killing Strike, Luminen Shock, Precision Killer, Swift Attack, Two-Weapon Wielder, Whirlwind of Death, Inescapable Attack

4 Tier 3: Assassin Strike, Blademaster, Crushing Blow, Lightning Attack,

Ballistic Skill: 12

1 Characteristic/s: Ballistic Skill

0 Skills:

1 Tier 1: Ambidextrous

6 Tier 2: Hip Shooting, Independent Targeting, Marksman, Precision Killer, Two-Weapon Wielder, Inescapable Attack

4 Tier 3: Eye of Vengeance, Luminen Blast, Mighty Shot, Target Selection

Strength : 9

1 Characteristic/s: Strength

2 Skills: Athletics, Intimidate

1 Tier 1: Frenzy

3 Tier 2: Battle Rage, Bulging Biceps, Unarmed Specialist

2 Tier 3: Hammer Blow, Thunder Charge

Toughness : 8*

1 Characteristic/s: Toughness

0 Skills:

3 Tier 1: Iron Jaw, Resistance, Sound Constitution*

2 Tier 2: Hardy, Prosanguine

2 Tier 3: Never Die, True Grit

Agility : 14

1 Characteristic/s: Agility

5 Skills: Acrobatics, Dodge, Operate, Sleight of Hand, Stealth

4 Tier 1: Catfall, Leap Up, Quick Draw, Rapid Reload

1 Tier 2: Hard Target

3 Tier 3: Preternatural Speed, Sprint, Step Aside,

Intelligence : 24**

1 Characteristic/s: Intelligence

11 Skills: Commerce, Common Lore, Forbidden Lore*, Linguistics, Logic, Medicae, Navigate, Scholastic Lore*, Security, Tech-Use, Trade

2 Tier 1: Technical Knock, Weapon-Tech

6 Tier 2: Armour-Monger, Coordinated Interrogation, Cover-Up, Exotic Weapon Training, Maglev Transcendence, Mechadendrite Use

4 Tier 3: Delicate Interrogation, Infused Knowledge, Mastery, Superior Chirurgeon

Perception : 11

1 Characteristic/s: Perception

4 Skills: Awareness, Psyniscience, Scrutiny, Survival

3 Tier 1: Blind Fighting, Keen Intuition, Warp Sense

1 Tier 2: Constant Vigilance

2 Tier 3: Deathdealer, Flash of Insight

Willpower : 11

1 Characteristic/s: Willpower

1 Skills: Interrogation

3 Tier 1: Die Hard, Ferric Summons, Jade

2 Tier 2: Strong Minded, Warp Conduit,

4 Tier 3: Adamantium Faith, Bastion of Iron Will, Favoured by the Warp, Warp Lock,

Fellowship : 9

1 Characteristic/s: Fellowship

4 Skills: Charm, Command, Deceive, Inquiry

1 Tier 1: Peer

2 Tier 2: Contact Network, Face in the Crowd

1 Tier 3: Halo of Command

Offence : 17

2 Characteristic/s: Weapon Skill, Strength

0 Skills:

3 Tier 1: Double Team, Frenzy, Takedown

5 Tier 2: Bulging Biceps, Devastating Assault, Killing Strike, Unarmed Specialist, Double Tap

7 Tier 3: Crushing Blow, Eye of Vengeance, Hammer Blow, Mighty Shot, Preternatural Speed, Thunder Charge, Two-Weapon Master

Finesse : 19

2 Characteristic/s: Ballistic Skill, Agility

0 Skills:

2 Tier 1: Quick Draw, Weapon Training, Exotic Weapon Training,

9 Tier 2: Hip Shooting, Independent Targeting, Marksman, Precision Killer, Swift Attack, Two-Weapon Wielder, Whirlwind of Death, Double Tap, Inescapable Attack

6 Tier 3: Blademaster, Deathdealer, Delicate Interrogation, Lightning Attack, Target Selection, Two-Weapon Master

Defence : 19

1 Characteristic/s: Toughness

2 Skills: Dodge, Parry

5 Tier 1: Die Hard, Disarm, Iron Jaw, Jaded, Resistance

7 Tier 2: Battle Rage, Combat Master, Constant Vigilance, Counter Attack, Hard Target, Hardy, Strong Minded

4 Tier 3: Adamantium Faith, Never Die, Step Aside, True Grit

Psyker : 7

1 Characteristic/s: Willpower

1 Skills: Psyniscience

1 Tier 1: Warp Sense

1 Tier 2: Warp Conduit

3 Tier 3: Bastion of Iron Will, Favoured by the Warp, Warp Lock

Tech : 11

0 Characteristic/s:

2 Skills: Security, Tech-Use

3 Tier 1: Ferric Summons, Technical Knock, Weapon-Tech

5 Tier 2: Armour-Monger, Luminen Shock, Maglev Transcendence, Mechadendrite Use, Prosanguine

1 Tier 3: Luminen Blast

Knowledge : 10

1 Characteristic/s: Intelligence

5 Skills: Commerce, Forbidden Lore, Logic, Scholastic Lore, Sleight of Hand

0 Tier 1:

1 Tier 2: Cover-Up

3 Tier 3: Flash of Insight, Infused Knowledge, Mastery

Leadership : 3

0 Characteristic/s:

1 Skills: Command

0 Tier 1:

1 Tier 2: Contact Network

1 Tier 3: Halo of Command

Fieldcraft : 13

1 Characteristic/s: Perception

6 Skills: Perception, Medicae, Navigate, Operate, Stealth, Survival

3 Tier 1: Blind Fighting, Catfall, Rapid Reload,

0 Tier 2:

3 Tier 3: Assassin Strike, Sprint, Superior Chirurgeon

Social : 12

1 Characteristic/s: Fellowship

5 Skills: Charm, Deceive, Inquiry, Interrogation, Intimidate

3 Tier 1: Clues from the Crowds, Enemy, Keen Intuition, Peer,

3 Tier 2: Coordinated Interrogation, Face in the Crowd, Hatred,

0 Tier 3:

So yeah, LOTS of variability in how even the aptitudes are. Leadership is less versatile than Psyker, while Intelligence is the clear winner. This...does not look to be that well-implemented.

I dont think every aptitude has to have the exact same amout of skills/talents etc. (as you dont know what will be added in future supplements).

A certain level of balance (15 +/-5) should be existing though, which especially means Leadership (and to a smaller degree Fellowship - Psyker is too special too count).

Another idea:

Only those with the Leadership aptitude are trusted enough to use the Inquisitors Influence value from time to time ;D

[...]

It comes down to a question of how long you expect your character to last. Are you going to get more than 5700XP? You're better off without Leadership because after that, having it doesn't help you at all and only makes other things more expensive.

It's still a matter of what character you want to make; maybe I want all the Leadership Skills and Talents, yet no Fieldcraft, or maybe only one that has Fieldcraft.

The only thing of worth that you pointed out is that Fellowship is objectively better than Leadership, since they always go together. That's an issue that they should try to resolve, unless they'll concede that Characteristics Aptitudes are meant to be slightly more versatile than Professional Aptitudes.

A bit of a knee-jerk idea that I just thought of; maybe Aptitudes should have minor abilities or bonuses associated with them, where somewhat underrepresented Aptitudes receive slightly better ones? May just be overcomplicating things, though, possibly waving red herrings in the face of people that haven't digested the system entirely yet.

I disagree with this argument that just because a character isn't going to buy all of the skills doesn't mean they should all be relatively equivalent. This argument was already had over the xp values of starting skills differing based on starting aptitudes, but I think I'm the only person who cares about that point.

[...]

I will assume that you meant "just because a character isn't going to buy all of the skills doesn't mean they shouldn't all be relatively equivalent."

The issue with that of course being that no-one has made that argument .

Of course Aptitudes should strive to be relatively equivalent. All Aptitudes should have about the same capability to help realize a reasonable character concept in conjunction with other Aptitudes, at a reasonably equivalent cost.

That, however, is a lot more complicated than just listing the number of Skills and Talents it gives you access to. For example, how would you "weigh" the Psyker Aptitude in relation to the other Aptitudes? Or, say, the suggested Fervor/Faith Aptitude that would serve as a basis for Faith-based Talents? Or the necessary Navigator Aptitude once the system is expanded to account for Navigators?

The Psyker Aptitude gives you access to unique abilities no-one else can even get. How much is that "worth" ? On one hand, added versatility and access to entire areas of abilities and perks is objectively more powerful, but wouldn't the worth ultimately be decided by the character concept? To anyone that doesn't want to play a Psyker, the Psyker Aptitude is near-useless, despite being objectively more powerful on paper.

Like I said, nobody has made the argument you seemingly attributed to me, and going back to Leadership vs. Fieldcraft in mind, I still maintain that it's not as clear-cut, even though looking at the list, it is obvious that Leadership is suffering massively - many leadership characters are likely to want Awareness, Navigate or Survive, for example.

Also I reject declaring Intelligence "a clear winner", however, because chances are that unless you're a fan of the loremaster-role (Which.. I am, actually, in most games) or a Tech-Priest, chances are you'll not get that much use out of it.

Thank you a lot for the list, by the way; it really helps visualize the issues.

To me, there's two points to take home from this, in relation to my earlier statement on Aptitudes:

• Fellowship is objectively better than Leadership.
• Leadership is overall suffering, being critically underpowered and marginalized.

There are several changes I would want to make (and have made myself) to the Skills and Aptitudes, that I think could help with this:

• Create "and/or" -alternatives as to what Aptitude applies to a Skill or Talent, creating more freedom in balancing Aptitudes or when a certain Aptitude is appropriate; sometimes multiple apply.
• Disambiguate, degeneralize or otherwise deconsolidate Skills; a return to form to a more pre-BC approach, increasing the number of skills.

  What skillsets are useful at any given time is a matter of locale and opportunity, and ultimately between a group and their GM; Gamble, Perform, Demolition, Tactics - they all have value and add versatility to the system, especially now that we are using Aptitudes and their costs are modular in relation to character concepts.

• Skill-Groups and Specialized Skills ("Specialist Skills" atm) should be different things; Skill-Groups should be groupings of skills under an umbrella, while Specialized should be the skills that are specifically unusable (bar a roll of 1) to the Untrained.

  Linguistics (Navis Nobilite) or (Ork) might make perfect sense as a Specialized Skill, whereas Linguistics (Low Gothic) or (High Gothic) might not. Likewise, something like Psyniscience might make perfect sense as a Specialized Skill without being part of a Skill-Group.

• Independently from whether something is in a Skill-Group or not, skills should be Basic Skills, Advanced Skills or Specialized Skills:

  Basic is half characteristic or -20, whichever is higher, if Untrained.

  Advanced is half characterstic or -20, whichever is lower, if Untrained.

  Specialized only succeeds on a 1, if Untrained.

  This creates a split between how different skills are used, and allows us to keep certain Skills that are still useful in a narrative sense and as a tool to realize character concepts within that narrative, without necessarily marking them as "must get" skills.

• Skills within Skill-Groups should have individualized Aptitude requirements when appropriate. In addition to increasing the variety of viable Aptitude/Skill combinations, it will increase the sense of "makes sense" and immersion. Intelligence applying to every single Trade-skill makes no sense . Ciphers (Occult) might go appropriately with Knowledge, while Ciphers (Imperial Codes) might fit better with Leadership. Operate (Voidship) can be as much a matter of Tech as of Leadership, whereas the personal operation of Operate (Surface) is clearly Fieldcraft.
• In the interest of future-proofing backwards compatibility, consider adding a Navigator Aptitude already.
• Consider adding a Faith or Fanaticism Aptitude; although I'm more unsure of this.

And that's really all I can come up with at the moment.

A nice workaround to Leadership sucking would be to make it essentially a bonus Aptitude. If you have 8 instead of the normal 7 it only helps you, since you're not giving anything up to get it. I think this is why Psyker and Inquisitor both just give their Aptitudes, and why in the update whatever background it was got Leadership or X (forget what X was).

A nice workaround to Leadership sucking would be to make it essentially a bonus Aptitude. If you have 8 instead of the normal 7 it only helps you, since you're not giving anything up to get it. I think this is why Psyker and Inquisitor both just give their Aptitudes, and why in the update whatever background it was got Leadership or X (forget what X was).

Uhm... You mean the Adeptus Astra Telepathica background that was changed to Psyker or Defense?

A nice workaround to Leadership sucking would be to make it essentially a bonus Aptitude. If you have 8 instead of the normal 7 it only helps you, since you're not giving anything up to get it. I think this is why Psyker and Inquisitor both just give their Aptitudes, and why in the update whatever background it was got Leadership or X (forget what X was).

You mean give *everyone* Leadership? That's essentially the same as just removing Leadership and change it's Skill(s) and Talents to the General Aptitude. Nevermind the fact that implying that everyone has an aptitude for leadership is... bad.

Or did I just misunderstand you?

A nice workaround to Leadership sucking would be to make it essentially a bonus Aptitude. If you have 8 instead of the normal 7 it only helps you, since you're not giving anything up to get it. I think this is why Psyker and Inquisitor both just give their Aptitudes, and why in the update whatever background it was got Leadership or X (forget what X was).

Uhm... You mean the Adeptus Astra Telepathica background that was changed to Psyker or Defense?

Umm, yeah. Misremembered which they changed. They should do the same thing for Ministorum and Leadership. The problem with that is that if it's Leadership or X, it's a false choice 99% of the time.

A nice workaround to Leadership sucking would be to make it essentially a bonus Aptitude. If you have 8 instead of the normal 7 it only helps you, since you're not giving anything up to get it. I think this is why Psyker and Inquisitor both just give their Aptitudes, and why in the update whatever background it was got Leadership or X (forget what X was).

You mean give *everyone* Leadership? That's essentially the same as just removing Leadership and change it's Skill(s) and Talents to the General Aptitude. Nevermind the fact that implying that everyone has an aptitude for leadership is... bad.

Or did I just misunderstand you?

You misunderstand. It's a bonus Aptitude in that taking the Inquisitor Elite Advance gives you the Aptitude for free (meaning you don't have to choose Leadership or X). It increases your Aptitude count from 7 to 8. I'm not advocating giving it to everybody.

You misunderstand. It's a bonus Aptitude in that taking the Inquisitor Elite Advance gives you the Aptitude for free (meaning you don't have to choose Leadership or X). It increases your Aptitude count from 7 to 8. I'm not advocating giving it to everybody.

Ah, thanks. Now I understand and disagree for completely different reasons. I would hate to see parts of a mechanic reduced to being there on principle and being awarded as a pity-Aptitude, especially since there are far more characters that should be apt leaders.

In fact, I would go so far as to say that Inquisitors *shouldn't* even get the Leadership Aptitude to begin with, because there is no shortage of inquisitors that have had the leadership ability of wheat-grass.

I see where you're coming from, but in my mind that's an indictment of the Aptitude system (which I dislike for a variety of reasons). As implemented, it doesn't work well (as Nimsim has nicely illustrated), and in the platonic ideal of an Aptitude system in which all are equally useful, there are less complicated ways of accomplishing the same end.

@fdsfg

Good catch. Double and triple negatives, whaddya gonna do...

I based my response on you saying "this assumes you're going to take all of those advances", which implies that leadership can't be compared to other aptitudes due to not every character taking every aptitude. It read to me like you were saying that because you can't compare the aptitudes, there is no sense balancing them.

As far as the Psyker aptitude goes, it is not entirely correct to say that it grants access to special abilities. That is done by the Psyker Trait. The aptitudes are only intended to reduce xp cost. The psyker aptitude reduces the cost of a few things, and is otherwise kind of a wasted aptitude. Surely having the trait act as the pre-requisite for relevant skills and talents to be bought should be enough.

Also, I'd give intelligence a clear winner based on the fact that it covers social, tech, combat, and lore while also applying to more things than any other aptitude in the game.

I agree that it is not clearly cut and dried to just compare raw numbers, but I also listed the actual talents and skills. Also, my issue with a lot of your suggestions is that they're tacking on rules to things that should be intuitive, dropping character competency with no substitute, and dialing back on the excellent skill consolidation. It honestly looks like a pain to track and run.

Looking at these numbers, it seems pretty obvious that the aptitude system was just tacked on, with adjustments made after the fact, rather than being designed in conjunction with talents and skills. This is why myself and others heavily supported doing a new system, because things like this are less of a refinement than a tacked on sub-system. Ideally, all of the numbers would even out with equal talents and skills for every aptitude. As it is, the system needs heavy adjustments. Here are my basic thoughts:

Eliminate the Psyker Aptitude and just make the trait into a pre-requisite.

Eliminate Leadership and roll it into Social.

I'm kind of on the fence, but why not make Tech-User into a trait like psyker and drive home how misunderstood technology is in the imperium? Then eliminate the Tech aptitude for other things. Maybe I'm wrong on the lore for that, though.

Add two new Aptitudes to replace the lost ones. Maybe continue the binary pattern: Offense/Defense, Finesse/Force, Military/Civilian, Investigation/Knowledge, Social.