The question, essentially, that I have is if people find upgrades really worth the points in a 100 point list. I find that upgrades (e.g., torpedoes, droids, ion cannon) to only very rarely be worth their points. I would rather spend almost nothing on upgrades to maximize the amount of ships that I am taking. What do other people think?

Depends entirely on your play style, and on what your squad build happens to be. I, for example, happen to like permanent upgrades and secondary weapons, such as cannons and turrets. Droids can be really helpful, especially if you can somehow make a beautiful 3 ship squad. Really there's no right or wrong answer.

They are and they aren't.

When you look at two ships in a vacuum that have upgrades to come to a common point value, it tends to be an evenly matched game.

HOWEVER, in the big-league tournaments, it has been extensively proven that you should never sacrifice a ship to upgrade its brethren. That is to say, 4 vanilla X-Wings perform much better than 3 X-Wings with upgrades, even when both fleets have the same totals.

When we discuss the worth of an Upgrade (and pilots and ships, for that matter), the ultimate question is "How much more damage/survivability/utility am I getting for the points I am spending?", and so clear winners start to peak out.

Push the Limit, for instance, is always more "Worth It" than Daredevil, despite costing the same, and filling the same slot.

You definitely can get your points back, things like PtL, Stealth Devices and R2 units are very easy to get points back on. But there are a lot of others that are situationally worthwhile, Recon Specialist on a Firespray, Mein Numb on Jan Ors etc

You definitely can get your points back, things like PtL, Stealth Devices and R2 units are very easy to get points back on. But there are a lot of others that are situationally worthwhile, Recon Specialist on a Firespray, Mein Numb on Jan Ors etc

Recon Specialist is a bit more than situational, in my experience.

Pair her with Gunner and you've taken a Critless Marksmanship that didn't require an EPT slot.

Put her in a HWK and you've made the Blaster Turret viable.

Put her in a Firespray and you don't have to choose between offense or defense in a ship that excels in both.

The fact that she buffs Offense AND Defense makes her an excellent pick-up, one whose points are far more easily reclaimed than Gunner's.

A large part would also depend on what you intend to do with that upgraded ship, if you fly a HLC ship the same as one with just it's primary, or an x-wing with r2-d2 added as an afterthought, then they aren't going to make up the point differences because you aren't catering to their new abilities. Some things also combo much better than others, R2-D2 works great with PTL or elusiveness since you're going to be clearing that stress often anyway, PTL was made for Tycho, Marksmanship on Ten or Mareek, Squad leader on Darth. Certain lackluster upgrades become good on the right ship (R5-D6 on dutch, Mercenary co-pilot on Kath) and some good ones just don't work with some pilots (Anything that requires an action on Garven). Paying attention to how things work together and how they help a ship fill their role in the squad is vital to making upgrades work.

I agree with much of what has been said. There are definatly some upgrades I don't think are worth it, Expose, Marksmanship, there are also a few that I haven't really played around with that may or not be worth it.

But Rule 1 is don't sacrifice ships for upgrades.

Rule 2 is that not all upgrades are equally good on all ships. When ever I take an upgrade I find they are most worth it when I get some sort of sinergy out of it.

Examples:

Krasis + HLC

Vader + Engine Upgrades

Jonus + a bunch of bombers with ordnance.

Soontir Fel or Tycho + Push the Limit

The other times sometimes I take Upgrades to fill in a gap with a ship, my main example Han Solo + Milenium Falcon Title

imo there is an optimal number of points that should be invested in a 100pts squad. There are some exceptions like tie-bomber squads, han shoots first, name pilot slave1 squads for instance that play a higher number of upgrades than most lists.

Its not an exact science but id say something like a maximum of 5-15% of my total 100pts will be spent on upgrades.

other players will differ due to play style, ship choices or just personal preference. Upgrades is one area where you will often see a big difference between casual players and competitive players. with casual players tending to go pretty heavy on upgrades. One of my favourite imperial lists uses darth vader + engine upgrade + concussion missiles + swarm tactics (thats 10pts of upgrades on one ship!)

As discussed already there are certain upgrades that are better on average and will therefore see more play. Push the Limit, Swarm Tactics, HLC, Gunner, Advanced Sensors, R2D2, R2 Astromech and stealth device are some upgrades you will see getting regular play. Id call all these upgrades tier 1 - meaning they are the most playable and are a great investment in terms of cost versus impact on the game. This is not a complete list of upgrades, thats just off the top of my head. Players reading this will no doubt be able to add to tier 1 upgrades. Id call stuff like Expose, Proton Torpedoes and Daredevil tier 3 - a bit overcosted and/or situational.

I have nothing to add really, rhink the above answers sum Ip a very subjective question.

If you go with Major Rhymer as the star of your squad ... you should give him 2 shots ... thats at least 8 points

(e.g. 2 clusters) but what really makes Rhymer interesting is the ability to use APT at range 2 ... and if you going to use APT you should go for PTL as well. So at the end you have (APT + clusters + PTL = )13 points or (2 x APT + PTL =) 15 points (!) of upgrades for 2 shots ... this and the fact that Rhymer alone is 26 points, literally bans him from competitive play.

Depends entirely on the upgrade.

As was posted, PTL is worth its weight in gold. Something like Saboteur might be if it were automatic but is kind of meh with a chance of failure. If you plan to do a lot of K-turning or otherwise generating stress, something like an R2 unit is a STEAL for a point. In a game last weekend I had an opponent with R5 on a Y-Wing use it to flip a Direct Hit, double damage crit face-down. For some reason until that moment it had never crossed my mind that effect could happen, so in that case bumping his ship back from 1 hull to 2, absolutely worth a point.

It's a loaded question because some upgrades are huge values, some are probably overcosted a bit, a lot of them depend entirely on how they fit in with your squad and how much use you get out of them. What's a waste of points with one squad might be points well spent in another squad.

An example; my new favorite Boba build gives him Daredevil, and Engine (to avoid the damaging side effect of Daredevil). That's a 7 point investment total, same as an HLC I could have given him instead. But the first time he whipped around and turned a blindside attacker coming at his side into a point blank nose to nose shot, and blew the guy up before he had a chance to fire, it was a bargain at that price.

I'll add the same 2 cents I've said elsewhere.

If you are going to include upgrades/secondary weapons/ect... You must have a reason and plan for them. Simply adding something without any idea how to make use of it is a waste of points.

Now a lot of that will depend on how many points... If you're at 99 points and add in a R2 Astromech that's not a big deal. But just slapping a HLC or even torpedo or missile can make a big difference in a a list.

Depending on the upgrades, sometimes they can make sense instead of more ships. 2nd place list at Gen Con was a 3 upgraded X-Wing list, so it can be very competitively viable.

One might as well ask - is a sunrise 'worth it?' Is a rainbow on a misty morning following a rainy night?

I've found that upgrades, even a lot of them, can be worth it. 3 heavily upgraded ships can be extremely capable. That's the key. In order to make it work, you have to do your part as the pilot. Where a swarm, even moderately piloted can be a huge threat, a small list requires the player to have better skill to utilize the benefits of that smaller list. You have the fly better and outthink your opponent. You need to be better at placing your ships, not only each turn, but thinking ahead. I've seen two and three ship lists, piloted well, destroy more numerous opponents when piloted well. In essence, upgrades are worth it if you can do your part.

other players will differ due to play style, ship choices or just personal preference. Upgrades is one area where you will often see a big difference between casual players and competitive players. with casual players tending to go pretty heavy on upgrades. One of my favourite imperial lists uses darth vader + engine upgrade + concussion missiles + swarm tactics (thats 10pts of upgrades on one ship!)

If you go with Major Rhymer as the star of your squad ... you should give him 2 shots ... thats at least 8 points

(e.g. 2 clusters) but what really makes Rhymer interesting is the ability to use APT at range 2 ... and if you going to use APT you should go for PTL as well. So at the end you have (APT + clusters + PTL = )13 points or (2 x APT + PTL =) 15 points (!) of upgrades for 2 shots ... this and the fact that Rhymer alone is 26 points, literally bans him from competitive play.

not to be a stickler for posting but ur first paragraph looks exactly like the one i posted which suggests it was cut and pasted without quoting from my post. Just pointing that out. No harm done.

other players will differ due to play style, ship choices or just personal preference. Upgrades is one area where you will often see a big difference between casual players and competitive players. with casual players tending to go pretty heavy on upgrades. One of my favourite imperial lists uses darth vader + engine upgrade + concussion missiles + swarm tactics (thats 10pts of upgrades on one ship!)

If you go with Major Rhymer as the star of your squad ... you should give him 2 shots ... thats at least 8 points

(e.g. 2 clusters) but what really makes Rhymer interesting is the ability to use APT at range 2 ... and if you going to use APT you should go for PTL as well. So at the end you have (APT + clusters + PTL = )13 points or (2 x APT + PTL =) 15 points (!) of upgrades for 2 shots ... this and the fact that Rhymer alone is 26 points, literally bans him from competitive play.

not to be a stickler for posting but ur first paragraph looks exactly like the one i posted which suggests it was cut and pasted without quoting from my post. Just pointing that out. No harm done.

Looks like the quote-box was destroyed by editing my post. This is strange - but tend to happen sometimes

all good.

im anxious to get some new playable astromechs as upgrades.

in many ways the ship coices u make will determine what upgrades u play (if any).

id really like FFG to make missiles and torpedoes better/more reliable. One shot upgrades r just not worth the risk imo.

They're hit or miss. I think a big issue with torpedoes and missiles is that people get so paranoid about losing the ship without firing them that they fire them off as soon as they possibly can, taking sub par shots, not taking advantage of the secondary effects (Homing against ships that haven't/can't evade, torps against shielded targets, so on so forth). While that's certainly a risk any upgrade can prove to be the same waste if you never get a chance to use it. One turn kill R2-D2, never get stress with a vanilla r2, all equals wasted points in the end.

I agree mostly with what others have said, but in general I follow the following rules in any miniature play:

What is my game plan --> what models fit that game plan --> what will this model be doing this battle --> can it be improved with upgrades, or is getting more models a better improvement.

I would never give up a ship for upgrades, unless the improvement is bigger than a whole extra model that will fit my gameplan.

Also, Biggs is the sole reason for playing 3 x-wing and bombers are a whole other game though.

all good.

im anxious to get some new playable astromechs as upgrades.

in many ways the ship coices u make will determine what upgrades u play (if any).

id really like FFG to make missiles and torpedoes better/more reliable. One shot upgrades r just not worth the risk imo.

I think torpedoes are like most other upgrades, there aren't really worth the points to take just to take. Fit them into your game plan. One problem in that torpedoes usually only give you 1 extra attack dice because they are often taken on X-wings or B-wings, and their extra hit is pretty uncommon. By comparison they may seem not as good as concision missiles which usually upgrade a 2 to 4 attack dice.

I actually think the best way to use Torpedoes is on Y-wings at range 3 against TIEs. I wouldn't use them in a tournament, but in a game where I know my opponent is going to be playing Imperials, then there is a pretty good chance that I will have some unarmored TIEs to shoot at.

Try this

Gold Squadron + PT x 3

Prototype Pilot x 2

Put the Y-wings in front of the A-wings, or put the A-wing on the far flank.

First round of shooting send 4 Torpedoes into TIEs. That should kill at least a couple. Then you dogfight at short range.

Or you could give the Y-wings ion-turrets and only have 1 Green squadron A-Wing. It is a loss of 8 Hit points but over all I think it increases your attack dice. And no on loved to be hit with those Ion Turrets.

My point is that even torpedoes follow the rule of upgrades, they can be good if they are part of your plan. (oh your plan also has to be good)

Try this

Gold Squadron + PT x 3

Prototype Pilot x 2

Put the Y-wings in front of the A-wings, or put the A-wing on the far flank.

First round of shooting send 4 Torpedoes into TIEs. That should kill at least a couple. Then you dogfight at short range.

Or you could give the Y-wings ion-turrets and only have 1 Green squadron A-Wing. It is a loss of 8 Hit points but over all I think it increases your attack dice. And no on loved to be hit with those Ion Turrets.

My point is that even torpedoes follow the rule of upgrades, they can be good if they are part of your plan. (oh your plan also has to be good)

Forgive me, I should point out a couple errors here. This list only has 3 torpedoes and the loss of one A-Wing drops your total HP by 4. Did you mean to link to another list instead?

As for the list concept itself, it can be a solid list. Y-Wings are surprisingly nimble and are very tanky against TIE Fighters. Turrets can be brutal against TIEs, since you only have to worry about getting out of arc, which opens up many maneuvering options in a knife fight.