I'm wondering if I've got the following correct (and apologies if this has been discussed in some of the psychic threads), as it seems that if you want to be a social character, a psyker + influence seems to be the best option. Given that you can start with:-

AAT psykers start at Psy Rating 2 thanks to Sanctioned, so that frees up 400XP.

It is a pretty powerful power.

AAT psykers start at Psy Rating 2 thanks to Sanctioned, so that frees up 400XP.

It is a pretty powerful power.

Ouch, I'd forgotten about the Sanctioned bonus.

So what I see here is that you can, after the first game, do a fettering influence at psy 2 for a target rating of 70 (additional +5 from psy rating, +5 from power), basically making all other social characters pointless (except in rare null type situations).

Add to this that the psyker can then buy other powers to keep up in combat, for example another 200 xp for a 40 metre ranged S/2/- 1d10+2 Pen 4 gun that can't jam, be taken away from you, peril and gets better as you level up (maxing just 1 stat to make all your stuff better) and hits on 70, why would you want to play any other class?

On the other hand, there are risks to using horrible warp witchery on every imperial citizen you meet.

And presumably if the power ends, their disposition may return to normal, and they may not remember you fondly.

Though they may wish to look at it.

The Heirophant can auto-succeed on critical social rolls with his ability, something that a psyker can't replicate. If you try to Push your Influence power to gain a greater bonus, your attempts to charm a NPC could be foiled by otherworldly wailing and daemonic faces appearing out of thin air

For most applications, the psyker does seem to have an advantage. I would like the Influence power to remain in the beta, since I feel that each discipline should have some non-combat powers, but the numbers could use some tweaking.

The Heirophant can auto-succeed on critical social rolls with his ability, something that a psyker can't replicate. If you try to Push your Influence power to gain a greater bonus, your attempts to charm a NPC could be foiled by otherworldly wailing and daemonic faces appearing out of thin air

For most applications, the psyker does seem to have an advantage. I would like the Influence power to remain in the beta, since I feel that each discipline should have some non-combat powers, but the numbers could use some tweaking.

Me too. I'm all for utility style powers, especially ones that support the rest of the team, but this is obviously too far when you can be the best at something through psychic powers as well as all the other advantages a psyker gets (and you can still have the same armour and guns as the other players).

I wouldn't want to lose it, just down power it massively (especially as it's the first power on the biomancy tree).

On the other hand, there are risks to using horrible warp witchery on every imperial citizen you meet.

And presumably if the power ends, their disposition may return to normal, and they may not remember you fondly.

Though they may wish to look at it.

Sadly, Imperial citizens don't possess the Psyniscience skill, so they won't even notice the Space Magic.

On the other hand, there are risks to using horrible warp witchery on every imperial citizen you meet.

And presumably if the power ends, their disposition may return to normal, and they may not remember you fondly.

Though they may wish to look at it.

Sadly, Imperial citizens don't possess the Psyniscience skill, so they won't even notice the Space Magic.

Actually, since Psyniscience can be used untrained, they do have a chance to notice... albeit a fairly slim one.

On the other hand, there are risks to using horrible warp witchery on every imperial citizen you meet.

And presumably if the power ends, their disposition may return to normal, and they may not remember you fondly.

Though they may wish to look at it.

Sadly, Imperial citizens don't possess the Psyniscience skill, so they won't even notice the Space Magic.

Isn't being psychicaly influenced something most people notice even without psyniscience if it happens to them?

On the other hand, there are risks to using horrible warp witchery on every imperial citizen you meet.

And presumably if the power ends, their disposition may return to normal, and they may not remember you fondly.

Though they may wish to look at it.

Sadly, Imperial citizens don't possess the Psyniscience skill, so they won't even notice the Space Magic.

Isn't being psychicaly influenced something most people notice even without psyniscience if it happens to them?

This is kind of what you'd expect from the general feel of the power, yet there is nothing in the rules to back it up. The power isn't even opposed (it's treated as a social challenge that the psyker replaces their side of it with a focus power roll), so it's interaction with things like resistance psykers and the strong minded talent is rather wooly.

To be honest the whole power could do with being rewriting as a clear telepathic mind control opposed power and then have a hidden mode at a negative (like -30 to the focus power roll) to do it without being found out afterwards.

Actually, since Psyniscience can be used untrained, they do have a chance to notice... albeit a fairly slim one.

Basic is half characteristic or -20, whichever is higher, if Untrained.

Advanced is half characterstic or -20, whichever is lower, if Untrained.

Specialized only succeeds on a 1, if Untrained.

Also, Skill Groups should be a completely different thing from Specialized, and each Skill within a Skill Group should be considered Basic, Advanced or Specialized independently from eachother.

An Untrained non-Psyker with a Perception of 40 has a 20% chance to pass on a Challenging (!) Psyniscience Skill Test. That's just ridiculous.

Isn't being psychicaly influenced something most people notice even without psyniscience if it happens to them?

Since I'm sitting with Rogue Trader up, Delude and Compel comes to mind as powers that specifically aren't noticeable (although I'm sure the mark would wonder why he just felt compelled to drop his pants) - and Mind Probe and Reprogram comes to mind on the other end of the scale, where the target are clearly aware of what is going on and will likely try to violently resist it.

This is part of the reason psykers are so valuable as part of entourages or retinues - they are capable of detecting when a General or Inquisitor or Rogue Trader and so forth are being influenced, whereas it might otherwise go unnoticed. That one skill, Psyniscience, narratively excuses a psyker's presence in almost all locales and social stratas, from the spires of Hive Sibellus to a farming hovel on Iocanthus.

Why is that ridiculous? Play up the whole 'psychic powers bend the rules of reality' thing and people start to notice weird stuff happening that shouldn't ever happen. Why should it be the case that only psykers can detect other psykers (which leads to the question of how psykers were ever detected in the first place)?

Why is that ridiculous? Play up the whole 'psychic powers bend the rules of reality' thing and people start to notice weird stuff happening that shouldn't ever happen. Why should it be the case that only psykers can detect other psykers (which leads to the question of how psykers were ever detected in the first place)?

When there's a group of witches throwing blocks around with their minds, you don't need to have Psyniscience to determine that something is wrong. There's a lot of powers that can be clearly discerned with the naked eye; you may not always be able to determine exactly who it's coming from, who is doing it, or what direction they are, but you can most definitely see that reality is breaking by the seams and someone has taken a wrench to the laws of physics.

Just because you don't have Psyniscience doesn't mean that you're a drooling moron without eyes in your face.

Edit: Also, you don't have to be a psyker to have Psyniscience. Some specialized groups or individuals have learned to master Psyniscience despite their psychic shortcomings. Witch-Finders and various any-psyker groups comes to mind.

Personally, I like untrained Psyniscience... broadly for the simplicity of the untrained skill rules and specifically for the additional "risk" it brings to psychic powers, especially subtle powers like Influence. A psyker simply cannot use his powers without risking being recognized as having done so.

Personally, I like untrained Psyniscience... broadly for the simplicity of the untrained skill rules and specifically for the additional "risk" it brings to psychic powers, especially subtle powers like Influence. A psyker simply cannot use his powers without risking being recognized as having done so.

Maybe, but narratively in the context of the game universe, it makes very little sense implying that everyone is in effect attuned to the ripples of the warp. Again, my example wasn't even a Routine check, but a Challenging test; any group of group of 6 mooks, assuming a human average baseline of 35, there's an average chance of at least one of them detecting the use of even subtle psychic powers exceeding 100%.

In even a slightly crowded room, there's going to be possibly hundreds of people detecting supposedly nearly undetectable uses of power (again, Challenging ) without even looking in the direction of the psyker, with several of them quite possibly being able to more or less pinpoint the source - they don't even need to be in the same room, or the same floor. In a palace of mooks, there is liable to be hundreds of people that know that not too far away, and in this general direction, someone just used a subtle psychic power.

Imagine a Hive where there's a warp portal that opens deep in the underhives as part of a ritual, an event that is in no way subtle by warp effect standards. Possibly millions of people just knew it happened, and it's general location, by this logic.

Sensing a disturbance in the force warp is not the same thing as knowing that a portal to hell the warp has opened up in your basement. It might not even be a conscious thing - people may not think "hey there's some witchcraft going on and it's that guy right there!" They're thinking, "Hey for no discernible reason I feel very uneasy about that guy" or "Man, things sure do feel surreal right now," or "I must be seeing things because there's reflections that don't line up with what they should line up with."

Personally, I like untrained Psyniscience... broadly for the simplicity of the untrained skill rules and specifically for the additional "risk" it brings to psychic powers, especially subtle powers like Influence. A psyker simply cannot use his powers without risking being recognized as having done so.

Maybe, but narratively in the context of the game universe, it makes very little sense implying that everyone is in effect attuned to the ripples of the warp. Again, my example wasn't even a Routine check, but a Challenging test; any group of group of 6 mooks, assuming a human average baseline of 35, there's an average chance of at least one of them detecting the use of even subtle psychic powers exceeding 100%.

In even a slightly crowded room, there's going to be possibly hundreds of people detecting supposedly nearly undetectable uses of power (again, Challenging ) without even looking in the direction of the psyker, with several of them quite possibly being able to more or less pinpoint the source - they don't even need to be in the same room, or the same floor. In a palace of mooks, there is liable to be hundreds of people that know that not too far away, and in this general direction, someone just used a subtle psychic power.

Imagine a Hive where there's a warp portal that opens deep in the underhives as part of a ritual, an event that is in no way subtle by warp effect standards. Possibly millions of people just knew it happened, and it's general location, by this logic.

I remember in Flight of the Einstein, the main character feeling a sense of the air becoming "oily" and other sensory distortions when psychic powers manifested around him. On the one hand, sure that's only one example from one novel and you can point to all manner of absurd things from the various 40K novels, but there is some precedent.

Honestly, I have no problem with the implications you present, put in their proper context. I can imagine millions of people in a hive having nightmares, experiencing waves of nausea, headaches and other such phenomena as a warp portal opens in the depths of the underhive. In fact, those are the very events that I imagine the Inquisition watches for and the kind of things that would spark an investigation. A group of acolytes sent into the lower hive levels to investigate a rash of nightmares among child laborers in the manufactories sounds like a great start to an adventure.

Sensing a disturbance in the force warp is not the same thing as knowing that a portal to hell the warp has opened up in your basement. It might not even be a conscious thing - people may not think "hey there's some witchcraft going on and it's that guy right there!" They're thinking, "Hey for no discernible reason I feel very uneasy about that guy" or "Man, things sure do feel surreal right now," or "I must be seeing things because there's reflections that don't line up with what they should line up with."

But that's not what Psyniscience is. Psyniscience is the skill and ability to passively or actively feeling those disturbances and attempt to pinpoint them.

Feeling uneasy, feelings of surrealness, or notice that something is just "off" is perfectly reasonable. A group of 6 mooks having an average of over 100%'s chance to actually define and nearly pinpoint the source and/or nature of said disturbance isn't.

One is the nature of warp events. The second is an acquired skill that takes focus, affinity and ability.

Edit:

I remember in Flight of the Einstein, the main character feeling a sense of the air becoming "oily" and other sensory distortions when psychic powers manifested around him. On the one hand, sure that's only one example from one novel and you can point to all manner of absurd things from the various 40K novels, but there is some precedent.

Honestly, I have no problem with the implications you present, put in their proper context. I can imagine millions of people in a hive having nightmares, experiencing waves of nausea, headaches and other such phenomena as a warp portal opens in the depths of the underhive. In fact, those are the very events that I imagine the Inquisition watches for and the kind of things that would spark an investigation. A group of acolytes sent into the lower hive levels to investigate a rash of nightmares among child laborers in the manufactories sounds like a great start to an adventure.

I think the disconnect here lies in the interpretation of what Psyniscience represents .

I would never require a Psyniscience roll for the things you and Cps describes, to me, that's like making an Acrobatics roll to take the stairs.

I think there's a typo/bit of unclear wording in the Influence description. The description says that you gain a +5 bonus to the focus power test for each point of Psy Rating you possess -- isn't that redundant, since you already get +5 per point of PR to ALL focus power tests?

I think there's a typo/bit of unclear wording in the Influence description. The description says that you gain a +5 bonus to the focus power test for each point of Psy Rating you possess -- isn't that redundant, since you already get +5 per point of PR to ALL focus power tests?

First I was going to respond based on what you said, but then I decided to check out the actual description. First, it doesn't give you +5 for each Psy Rating you possess, it gives you +5 per Psy Rating; whether this is Psy Rating you possess or Psy Rating used (I presume it's Psy Rating USED) isn't clarified, and is definitely a problem.

However, it also says that this is a bonus. Specific rules > General rules, so for all intents and purposes, this should be in addition to the +5 per Psy Rating used that you are already getting.

My interpretation of RAW is that in effect, you get +10 per Psy Rating used instead of the regular +5.

This sounds broken to me, because that will instantly push this skill of the scale and means that hell, why would a psyker even get social skills ever, when they have just this, and even with a Psy Rating of 2 the Focus Power Test ends up at +10 (since it started at -10), but hey, no shortage of broken things already.

Sensing a disturbance in the force warp is not the same thing as knowing that a portal to hell the warp has opened up in your basement. It might not even be a conscious thing - people may not think "hey there's some witchcraft going on and it's that guy right there!" They're thinking, "Hey for no discernible reason I feel very uneasy about that guy" or "Man, things sure do feel surreal right now," or "I must be seeing things because there's reflections that don't line up with what they should line up with."

I fully agree.

But that's not what Psyniscience is. Psyniscience is the skill and ability to passively or actively feeling those disturbances and attempt to pinpoint them.

Feeling uneasy, feelings of surrealness, or notice that something is just "off" is perfectly reasonable. A group of 6 mooks having an average of over 100%'s chance to actually define and nearly pinpoint the source and/or nature of said disturbance isn't.

One is the nature of warp events. The second is an acquired skill that takes focus, affinity and ability.

Edit:

I remember in Flight of the Einstein, the main character feeling a sense of the air becoming "oily" and other sensory distortions when psychic powers manifested around him. On the one hand, sure that's only one example from one novel and you can point to all manner of absurd things from the various 40K novels, but there is some precedent.

Honestly, I have no problem with the implications you present, put in their proper context. I can imagine millions of people in a hive having nightmares, experiencing waves of nausea, headaches and other such phenomena as a warp portal opens in the depths of the underhive. In fact, those are the very events that I imagine the Inquisition watches for and the kind of things that would spark an investigation. A group of acolytes sent into the lower hive levels to investigate a rash of nightmares among child laborers in the manufactories sounds like a great start to an adventure.

Again, I fully agree; see my response to Cps.

I think the disconnect here lies in the interpretation of what Psyniscience represents .

I would never require a Psyniscience roll for the things you and Cps describes, to me, that's like making an Acrobatics roll to take the stairs.

Quote from the last update regarding Psyniscience:

"Characters who are not psykers can also use this skill,

Quote from the last update regarding Psyniscience:

"Characters who are not psykers can also use this skill,

representing their ability to recognise the subtle phenomena, such

as strange patterns of dust motes or odd sensory distortions, which

accompany psychic disturbances"

Ugh, just because they changed the rules doesn't make it any less ridiculous. I haven't seen the last update, but aside from the rules for acquiring the skill, have they changed anything else about it?

Because untrained non-psyker mooks at the bottom of the foodchain having having nearly a one-in-five chance to detect warp entities up to their PB in kilometres based on "strange patterns of dust motes" or "bad feelings" is still ridiculous.

I would expect the two examples they use to fall under Forbidden Lore (Psykers) or Forbidden Lore (Warp), determining that there has been an event here or is an ongoing event nearby based on knowledge and deduction.

In addition to redoing the skill-use system (so that situations such as this does not arise in relation to certain Skills), I now hope they change Psyniscience back to how it was; that only Psykers or the otherwise attuned can get it, with the stipulation that under certain circumstances, non-Psykers can too, either through Alternate Ranks of some sort or as Elite Advancements.

Edit: And I always thought Warp Sense was a bit of an oddity. I would expect certain psykers to start with it, Astropaths in particular, but /shrug.

How would a psyker get 'influence'

How would a psyker get 'influence'

It's the root power of the Biomancy discipline.

Ugh, just because they changed the rules doesn't make it any less ridiculous. I haven't seen the last update, but aside from the rules for acquiring the skill, have they changed anything else about it?

Got to keep up with the updates

Before this update came out I had emailed the Dark Heresy Beta email address in part of to ask if Psyniscience could be used by non-psykers because I was of the same opinion as you. This was the reply: