So, I finally had time to finish reading the new update on the beta, and have noticed that Untouchables is STILL broken.

With that in mind, I would kindly ask if am I going insane(er) or shouldn't Untouchables, as in all WH40K Lore shouldn't be actually UNTOUCHABLE and simply immune to psy powers, with further talents expanding their aura.

I feel like FFG really just wanted an excuse to show off their Elite Advance system.

I feel like FFG really just wanted an excuse to show off their Elite Advance system.

Makes a lot of sense, really.

I have no problem at all with that, in fact.

My problem is with the ridiculous Resistance (Psychic Powers) they begin with.

Sorry, my friends, but if you're not a Daemon Prince or Corrupted Chaos Titan, you're not getting in the head of an Untouchable, and that's that.

I've house-ruled that Untouchables are flat out immune to any psychic powers that directly affect them and psychic detection (short of powerful trained psykers looking specifically for their null warp aura), but balanced this out with social penalties . They definitely should be immune to stuff like telepathy.

The problem is, FF has done the penalties perfectly, they only missed on the power.

There is no doubt I will do what you did as well, but it should be on the book, no need for house rules.

I'd honestly just port over the advance from Inquisitor's Handbook and scrap the idea of Untouchable advances entirely. Untouchables 'levelling up' their skills never made a ton of sense to me.

I'd honestly just port over the advance from Inquisitor's Handbook and scrap the idea of Untouchable advances entirely. Untouchables 'levelling up' their skills never made a ton of sense to me.

Although I agree with you, I understand their reasoning.

Therefore, although I would also prefer just a simple advance, with no evolution, I would not mind having advances, as long as the main one was reasonable.

The problem is, FF has done the penalties perfectly, they only missed on the power.

There is no doubt I will do what you did as well, but it should be on the book, no need for house rules.

Ah, I hadn't realised they updated the Untouchables in the new beta, perhaps I should give them a look over and incorporate them in my Beta 1.0 game.

I actually don't think the new rules are that bad. They allow a much more balanced progression, and the advance is free now which is pretty cool. You can take Psychic Null multiple times which will make you immune pretty quickly now that is stacks with resistence (I've bought psychic null once and my character is now an effective WP of 75 vs psychic powers).

The problem with the DH1 ruling is that 400xp is far too cheap for what you get, and untouchable is an advance that should really be taken at character creation, so its finding a way to balance the two.

The problem with the DH1 ruling is that 400xp is far too cheap for what you get, and untouchable is an advance that should really be taken at character creation, so its finding a way to balance the two.

This might be a byproduct of the fact that Background Packages came out after the core rulebook. BPs had to be taken at character creation, and starting characters only get 400xp to start, capping the max cost of any BP. A lot of them are really cost effective ways of getting skills and talents.

I actually don't think the new rules are that bad. They allow a much more balanced progression, and the advance is free now which is pretty cool. You can take Psychic Null multiple times which will make you immune pretty quickly now that is stacks with resistence (I've bought psychic null once and my character is now an effective WP of 75 vs psychic powers).

The problem with the DH1 ruling is that 400xp is far too cheap for what you get, and untouchable is an advance that should really be taken at character creation, so its finding a way to balance the two.

The problem with this is, no matter how much WP you have, it won't matter if a Psyker wants to burn you alive or throw you around.

An untouchable, however, is immune to this, and the rules should reflect that.

I'm not familiar with the older 40K RPG lines. Was there something previously which allowed PC's to be completely immune to psychic attacks?

I'm not familiar with the older 40K RPG lines. Was there something previously which allowed PC's to be completely immune to psychic attacks?

Yes. The Untouchable background package in the... iirc it was the Radical's Handbook, made the character who took the advance completely immune to all psychic powers. True to the Untouchable fluff, psychic lightning bolts would bounce off of you harmlessly, no telepathic powers would work on you etc. Only way you could be killed by psychic powers is if someone threw something at you.

Regarding the beta's rules for the class, well, I'm not exactly a fan. Rather than repeat my points, here's the quote of my feelings on the class from the update thread (sorry in advance for the length):

I actually don't think the new rules are that bad. They allow a much more balanced progression, and the advance is free now which is pretty cool. You can take Psychic Null multiple times which will make you immune pretty quickly now that is stacks with resistence (I've bought psychic null once and my character is now an effective WP of 75 vs psychic powers).

The problem with the DH1 ruling is that 400xp is far too cheap for what you get, and untouchable is an advance that should really be taken at character creation, so its finding a way to balance the two.

The problem with this is, no matter how much WP you have, it won't matter if a Psyker wants to burn you alive or throw you around.

An untouchable, however, is immune to this, and the rules should reflect that.

Implementing that has always been very much a 'GM call' thing though. Now the Untouchable can mechanically drop the psykers PR to 0, which is actually of more benefit to the group.

Yes. The Untouchable background package in the... iirc it was the Radical's Handbook, made the character who took the advance completely immune to all psychic powers. True to the Untouchable fluff, psychic lightning bolts would bounce off of you harmlessly, no telepathic powers would work on you etc. Only way you could be killed by psychic powers is if someone threw something at you.

I'm not familiar with the older 40K RPG lines. Was there something previously which allowed PC's to be completely immune to psychic attacks?

Regarding the beta's rules for the class, well, I'm not exactly a fan. Rather than repeat my points, here's the quote of my feelings on the class from the update thread (sorry in advance for the length):

Well... I would still prefer if Untouchables were simply immune to psychic powers altogether. The idea that their aura's can be "leveled up" to debuff psykers kind of makes me gnash my teeth, but it's something I can live with. At least the abilities scale now, so when my level 8 Untouchable meets the new Burning Princess equivalent with psy-rating 10, she isn't going to just laugh at my piddly -2 to her psy rating.

In fact, one could argue that with enough points put into warp disruption, Untouchables could actually be OVERpowered now against psykers, as before they were immune and had a slight debuff (-10 to their rolls) but otherwise didn't actively weaken psykers, whereas now if a psyker gets caught in the aura of a powerful enough Untouchable, they're boned. A psyker can not just "fly away" if need be (like the Burning Princess did when we encountered her the first time), nor could they even rely on the old telekinetic hurl. They're helpless.

That seems a little too strong. Frankly, I would rather turn the ability into a static "Psykers within aura X have their Psy-Rating lowered by Y" debuff that can not be leveled up, and in exchange Untouchables get their old immunity to psychic attacks back. Having psychic bonuses to resist mind-control and stuff is all well and good, but having a +99 to your resistance tests still won't do jack to protect you from molten beam, and that, frankly, is the fundamental issue I think. An Untouchable should giggle as molten beam bounces off of them harmlessly. That's like... basic Untouchable shenanigans. The class just won't feel right, imo, if that isn't apart of its features.

But that isn't to say that I want the class to be an exact replica of DH1's, it really doesn't have to be. So long as they're balanced, I think that any separate abilities made to the class (like the debuff aura, fellowship debuffs etc) are acceptable, but only under the premise that, at base, the Untouchable him/herself is completely immune to psychic abilities of any kind.

That's my two sense, anyway.

Edit- I would be open to keeping Untouchables as they currently are if the Deny the Witch mechanic from the tabletop was adopted in addition to its psychic powers. If you were able to negate any psychic power aimed at you on a successful willpower test, then I would have no problem with Untouchables having a crapton of bonuses to their Deny the Witch roll rather than straight up immunity.

EDIT- One other thing I'll say: I don't think the Untouchable's fellowship debuffs are good enough. As it currently stands, and this is the same issue the DH1 Untouchable suffered, the core weakness of the Untouchable (being hated by everyone) can be solved simply by the Untouchable... not saying anything. In pretty much all RPG's like this, there is always the party dynamic of their being "the DPS guy", the "Tank guy", the "skill-bot", and "the guy who does all the talking". So it isn't uncommon for the soldier class and all the classes who suck at FS to just not talk while the social butterfly takes all the FS tests. That's standard RPG-fare. Untouchables being ass at fellowship tests is, therefore, hardly a penalty. Especially if the base class you're playing (Guardsman, Tech-Priest), already sucks at Fellowship tests anyway.

What Untouchables really need is for their penalties to bring THE ENTIRE PARTY down. There needs to be a REASON, not just fluffwise but even mechanically, for the Untouchable to be despised by basically everyone around him, even the other players. I'm talking about something like, for example, " any NPC entering the Untouchable's aura for the first time takes a -20 to their disposition toward the party."

That would be a good rule, because that way an Untouchable's weaknesses can't be ignored. It can't be downplayed simply by playing them as if they were a Tech-Priest or Guardsman. Just by existing , the Untouchable is making life harder for everyone, including its own allies. And that , really, is what being an Untouchable is all about.

Well... that and being a thorn in a Psyker's side obviously.

Just sign me up with all of the above!

Implementing that has always been very much a 'GM call' thing though. Now the Untouchable can mechanically drop the psykers PR to 0, which is actually of more benefit to the group.

The problem is not so much about what help an Untouchable can be to the group, but what an Untouchable, by definition, is.

Yeah I totally get that, hence why I started the first of these threads a month or so ago.

The issue is from a mechanical/balance perspective there are 2 real options.

Allow the untouchable elite advance to do everything it did in DH1, but increase the starting cost accordingly. This presents a problem that not all characters are evenly suited to buy the talents (most fo them are only alligned to the Willpower aptitude, so this cost should vary wildy). This would create a system where the untouchable is represented at true 'fluff power' but would restrict any character from starting with the advance in itself, which seems... wrong, given its something they're born with. The cost of this advance would also need to be somewhere in the region of 2000 - 3000 xp to be balanced (basing it on the costs in the current beta for the talents) so someone is going to be saving up for a long long time before they get this.

The second is to implement a system that allows the character to be established as an 'untouchable' at character creation, but let them buy their powers over time in the same way as psykers. This is basically what we have now, but as you have rightly pointed out it doesn't seem to fit the fluff perfectly either. There could be more things added to the current choices, but again given the untouchable talents are all willpower based you would need to make a character specifically designed to take advantage of that.

Neither solution is perfect.

Of course there is a 3rd option, which is that we just accept that untouchables are too powerful to realistically implement into the game while maintaining any semblence of game balance, so we just scrap the advance in its entirity. I think this would be a real shame as I was thrilled to be they were being included in a more fleshed out fashion in this edition.

The 4th option is to make them as they were in DH1 and price them so that they may be taken as an elite background package.

There is nothing unbalanced about the DH1 Untouchable with the cost that it has (400exp, iirc).

Sample Dark Heresy 2.0 Untouchable:

Untouchable - 400exp

Description

Untouchables are blahblahblahflufffluff.

Effect

Soulless: An Untouchable is completely immune to all psychic abilities and energy that target it. Untouchables can never be possessed, never suffer the effects from warp phenomena or perils of the warp, and can not be detected by any psychic detection abilities. Any psychic ability that targets an Untouchable solely will instantly fail; manifested energy attacks such as beams and fireballs simply dissipate harmlessly before reaching him. Area-of-affect psychic abilities completely by-pass the Untouchable, though they may still affect people around them.

Note: Despite being completely immune to psychic powers, Untouchables can still be injured by non-direct affects of psychic powers, examples of which include a heavy object thrown with telekinesis, the smoke created by objects lit on fire with pyrokinesis- the Untouchable can even be burned by the object itself.

Pariah: All NPC's have a permanent -20 disposition toward Untouchables. When coming into contact with a specific Untouchable for the first time, all NPC's suffer a -15 to their disposition towards everyone (This stacks with the Untouchable disposition penalty, so upon meeting an Untouchable for the first time, an NPC will have a -15 toward everyone around him, and a -35 toward the Untouchable specifically).

And if we must have all those level-up abilities (sigh), price them accordingly after that.

Done.

Description

Untouchables are blahblahblahflufffluff.

This is awesome!

Forget about the rules, lets implement this!

Description

Untouchables are blahblahblahflufffluff.

This is awesome!

Forget about the rules, lets implement this!

On a related note, I like both Cail's and BlaxicanX's suggestions, although I must say I don't think Untouchables are too OP for a game, as they still can be filled with lead as well as any other person.

The 4th option is to make them as they were in DH1 and price them so that they may be taken as an elite background package.

There is nothing unbalanced about the DH1 Untouchable with the cost that it has (400exp, iirc).

Sample Dark Heresy 2.0 Untouchable:

Untouchable - 400exp

Description

Untouchables are blahblahblahflufffluff.

Effect

Soulless: An Untouchable is completely immune to all psychic abilities and energy that target it. Untouchables can never be possessed, never suffer the effects from warp phenomena or perils of the warp, and can not be detected by any psychic detection abilities. Any psychic ability that targets an Untouchable solely will instantly fail; manifested energy attacks such as beams and fireballs simply dissipate harmlessly before reaching him. Area-of-affect psychic abilities completely by-pass the Untouchable, though they may still affect people around them.

Note: Despite being completely immune to psychic powers, Untouchables can still be injured by non-direct affects of psychic powers, examples of which include a heavy object thrown with telekinesis, the smoke created by objects lit on fire with pyrokinesis- the Untouchable can even be burned by the object itself.

Pariah: All NPC's have a permanent -20 disposition toward Untouchables. When coming into contact with a specific Untouchable for the first time, all NPC's suffer a -15 to their disposition towards everyone (This stacks with the Untouchable disposition penalty, so upon meeting an Untouchable for the first time, an NPC will have a -15 toward everyone around him, and a -35 toward the Untouchable specifically).

And if we must have all those level-up abilities (sigh), price them accordingly after that.

Done.

You are aware that is not how they work in DH1 right?

You forgot about their effect on deamons, and you reduced the negative effects for playing one.

Its far too much for 400xp in any case, and the effects are mechanically pretty wooly.

I think the idea of the negative effects expanding beyond the player itself are pretty good though. Before the change in beta 2 I actually had a plan to make my untouchable really good at lying (partly because I don't like being the guy who never intereacts with NPCs, I'm far to much of a talkative player and really hate people who just play combat characters). The advance as it stands might suffer from being something thats only feasible for that kind of player right now. The current side effects hardly act as a deterrant if the player had no intention of taking any skills for intereacting with NPCs besides stabbing them anyway.

I didn't say that was how they worked in DH1. This is my (weaker) conversion of the class for DH2.

Provide an actual argument for why you think it's too powerful for 400exp. You're giving up 4 starting talents or skills at creation, you can still be shot to death, cut to pieces, and crushed just like everybody else, and on top of that you literally run the risk of NPC's attacking you the moment they meet you (the average disposition of NPC's you first meet is 40-60, so if you meet an NPC with 40 disposition he's going to have a mere 5 toward you, that's one wrong word or move away from potentially being shot at on the spot), not to mention debuffing your entire team's fellowship abilities simply by being in the same room as them.

I already did, the current calculation for those abilities ranges at somewhere around 3000xp. That wasn't a number I picked out of my ass, its a low ball ballpark based on the DH2 beta.

We're more on the same page than you think though. I do agree with most of the comments you made in your long post you quoted, I just think 400xp is way too little.

Exp numbers doesn't constitute as an argument because the exp "worth" of an ability is subjective and can be fiddled with by FFG at any time. Furthermore, the ability, as I described it above, does not contain any of the talents that the beta offers. There is no psy-rating debuffing ability and no aura that buffs your allies' resistance, so why are you adding the costs of null-field, warp disruption, anathema, and bane to the base cost? That's 2800 of this alleged 3000 exp that should not be included in the Untouchable's abilities as I've described them on the page prior.

I agree with you that 400 exp is too cheap if the psi-rating aura and the resistance aura was thrown into the package for just that 400 exp. But that's why I emphasized that these other abilities should be purchased separately For 400 exp you're paying for the Untouchable themselves to have immunity to psychic powers, zero debuffs, zero aura, and the disposition penalties. That's it. The rest of the stuff can be purchased separately.

The problem is you're still valuing total immunity to psychic attack at the same cost as a tier 3 talent for which you have 2 aptitudes.

Do you think complete immunity should be as cheap as say, Step Aside, or Strong Minded? It certainly seems more useful for what you pay.

Yes.

Because Step aside and strong minded don't make NPC's want to kill you the moment they meet you. They also don't debuff the entire parties' fellowship tests when they meet NPC's.

Furthermore, immunity to psychic powers (but not total, as I've explained within the effects section of the class) is highly situational. Unless your GM hates you or you're in special circumstances, you will be fighting 1 psyker for every dozen regular mooks armed with melee weapons or guns, neither of which being an Untouchable gives you any protection from. By comparison, step aside is actually more useful since you'll be utilizing it far more often.