So are machine spirits basically AI's

No. They are essentially highly specialised version of Siri. They cannot grow or learn beyond their function, and they're a general catch-all routine for what we would term a software program. They usually communicate through a servitor-interface, though some can speak independently.

If you've done the Forsaken Bounty introductory adventure there's a nice section where the crew has to interface with the core cogitator which has a servitor growing out of it as a voicebox. The catch is all attempts at negotiation won't work because the thing cannot reason beyond its limited programming.

If it was an AI it, and everyone who's ever talked to, worked with, or heard about it would be burned by the Mechanicus, or - more likely - turned into a servitor so that nothing goes to waste.

Agreed with Erathia.

My two cents would be: machine spirit are AdMechs thought construct helping to comprehand software on religious and/or philosopohical basis twofold. First is exactly the same as caveman beliving thunders are something outwordly, mythical and godly in their origins; second is derived from AdMech basic law: consciousness wiithout a soul is blasphemy, so if you got something very similar to inteligence (software) you just have to put something very similar to a soul into your mental picture of it.

Of course in 40k borderline between real world and its images in persons mind is bit blurred.

What these guys said, basically.

It should be noted, however, that in-universe the distinction is not always so clear (it is, objectively, but people can't always tell) such that a sufficiently advanced servitor could be taken for either an AI (by people who don't know what they're talking about, or don't care to investigate properly), or an attempt at making AI (which is almost as bad for the owner), or possibly just an affront to the Machine God in a general sense (possibly just as an excuse to hang you by your entrails for some other slight).

As for machine spirits themselves, I agree with Wincent that there's both the Machine Spirit, which is a kind of computer, and the "Machine Spirit" which is a way of explaining to superstitious peasants why you don't delete your System 32 folder. [WARNING: speculation and personal interpretation ahead:] I would also submit, however, that items with a more nebolous "spirit" fall under this category - for instance, a 10.000-year old chainsword that has killed millions and has been imbued with a spirit of bloodthirst (possibly by way of the Proven special rule, for you mechanics-minded folks) and might just rev up its engine of its own accord as you hold it up to someone's throat. This has never been explicitly stated, as far as I'm aware, but I believe it's been implied on occasion, and I always interpreted it to come from basically the same source as the missionary's faith magic.

I recommend you see this thread, where it was recently discussed: http://community.fantasyflightgames.com/index.php?/topic/93142-semi-sentient-almost-heretical-low-gothic-speaking-machine-spirit/

In a nutshell, "Machine Spirits" is a very ambiguous term, which could mean anything from a highly powerful and advanced Artificial Intelligence (or "Abominable Intelligence" as it is known in the Imperium) - although the AdMech would never recognize an AI as a Machine Spirit if they knew it was an AI - to very simple targeting programs, automated functions or even a sliding door.

That sliding door that opens when you approach it? What opens the door for you? Well, the machine-spirit of course! If it doesn't work? Try saying the litanies of grand restartification or apply the sacred oils to the blessed cogbarrow.

That IFF-device on your ship, how come it recognizes friends from foe? Well obviously, the machine spirit has come to know who is an enemy and who is a friend. Do the prayers of recategorization and press the blessed runes of nonreprisal to inform the machine spirit that that target over there is not an enemy.

Now, there *may* also be benevolent and/or malevolent entities inhabiting mundane devices, and there *may* be some truth to *some* machine spirits, and even something as simple as a lasgun or a bolt pistol *could* have a basic AI, and it may even grow fond of it's user; it's all very muddy and kept very ambiguous.

Some of the simpler ones may talk, some of the more advanced full-blown AI:s won't, and vice versa. What's important to also remember in this context is that while the AdMech reveres Machine Spirits, they abhor Abominable Intelligences - and some simpler machine spirits may be mistaken for the latter, while some AI:s will just up and get accepted as legit machine spirits.

Many "simple" programs in the Imperium have the capacity to "learn" or act in an intuitive manner, leading to many 'quirks' that has nothing to do with AI:s, while AI:s can develop both love and hate. I believe there has even been cases where non-AI:s have developed sentience over the millennia, due to overaccumulation of data and corruption.

So, as Magellan pointed there's even third recognizion of machine spirit - a sprit that's not a machine but is housed in a machine. I think Black Crusade handles this matter with more detail.

This in fact turns into two categiries by its own: 1. deamon infested stuff 2. objects with such a history that its warp-echo gets powerful by itself (and one day can turn into consciousness <insert evil laugher>). The second one is semi-supported by cog-whisperer elite advance in Navis Primer.

On itself that subjects bringes us dangerlousy closely to question about nature of soul in 40k. If mundane items (mainly weapons) can have warp-echo, then why not AIs and then can they achieve deamonhood?

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On itself that subjects bringes us dangerlousy closely to question about nature of soul in 40k. If mundane items (mainly weapons) can have warp-echo, then why not AIs and then can they achieve deamonhood?

AI:s have emotions, so I guess that in the most base sense, AI:s should have some measure of soul. And we know for a fact that machines can be both possessed and corrupted, and that there's such a thing as daemonic scrap-code.

While I haven't heard of such a thing, and while I think that it would be much more likely that the AI in question would get straight-up possessed or twisted into whatever the daemons want, I guess it would arguably be possible for an AI to achieve some kind of daemonhood, if it dedicates itself to serve the ruinous powers.

On the other hand, we know of other things that are technically "alive" in the barest sense of the word but that cannot be possessed due to their special nature. Necrons come to mind. I believe there were once a case of Iron Men being corrupted by chaos (or at least the STC that were producing them), and the Iron Men were AI:s.

My 2c on this thread...

IMHO and interpretation, machine spirit can refer to an actual program, or it can refer to a more nebulous "psychic imprint" an old machine can get after centuries of use. This would especially be the case for items that are typically used in emotionally charged situations like combat. So you could get a situation like the chainsword mentioned above.

Massive machines like starships would (in addition to whatever actual programs ran on it) almost always garner this "psychic imprint" due to the thousands upon thousands of souls on board at any given time, and it spending a large part of its existance sailing through the warp. This explains the ship traits and quirks one can end up with.

And, of course, it can refer to an AI. Note that not ALL mechanicus would want to terminate the AI. Many would revere it. (Reference the reason some of the mechanicus joined Horus to begin with, and almost ANY novelization involving the AdMech and Necrons).

For my excuse to say something, back in the past, there were the Men of Iron, and they were legit A.I. The Federation (by comparison) used them for what we all use robots for; labor and war, and it worked just fine. As anything else intelligent in the galaxy has figured out, however, Humanity is a waste, a parasite, and should not be tolerated; ergo, the Men of Iron rebelled on Mars, and elsewhere, knowing we had little to fight with, when we used to fight with THEM, and tried to have their own little war. When it was over, and they lost, it was decided that any machine that could truly think for itself was an abomination; it (AI) was a bad idea, and one of the few rules unbroken to this day. Even the Emperor, when He rose to power, didn't say "hmm, can "I" make this work?" He went with "No, no better to just leave it alone. We have Servitors, now." That's why Servitors got made, and their "creation" makes them one of the few things that Chaos really can't do much to. Dead flesh, cold machine, butchered mind, hollow soul; take that Chaos!

If you try to make something purely artificial, and also self-aware, there is no short list of who will bring down all their power onto your head. If it has a soul, and can think, Chaos can get into it, machine or not, so you might as well not try; Necrons are only safe because they don't have a presence in the warp. There's a novel where CC Gaunt finds a fabricator for them, and he decides, thankfully, not to risk that others are less faithful than him, and wrecks it.

In my Expanse, I have a Melfina ripoff made by the Necrons, and this is PART of the many reasons Korvallus hasn't spoken up about her, and she remains in a stasis tube. She's AI, xenostech, and has the abilities of a Navigator; who WOULDN'T that piss off?

In my Expanse, I have a Melfina ripoff made by the Necrons, and this is PART of the many reasons Korvallus hasn't spoken up about her, and she remains in a stasis tube. She's AI, xenostech, and has the abilities of a Navigator; who WOULDN'T that piss off?

Stryxis. They'd probably try to buy her.

In my Expanse, I have a Melfina ripoff made by the Necrons, and this is PART of the many reasons Korvallus hasn't spoken up about her, and she remains in a stasis tube. She's AI, xenostech, and has the abilities of a Navigator; who WOULDN'T that piss off?

Stryxis. They'd probably try to buy her.

In my Expanse, I have a Melfina ripoff made by the Necrons, and this is PART of the many reasons Korvallus hasn't spoken up about her, and she remains in a stasis tube. She's AI, xenostech, and has the abilities of a Navigator; who WOULDN'T that piss off?

Stryxis. They'd probably try to buy her.

Problem is Korvallus is one of the best people in my Expanse; a living legend that isn't a complete tool. When I wrote him, he was to be a rare example of a Human who shouldn't be shot, just for being Human. He sees Melfina as a person, if not Human, and she is very childlike and naive; he'd never give her away. Right now, his biggest worry is letting his heir, once he picks one, in on it; he's getting old, finally, so he's going to have to share this secret at some point, and how will they take it? Right now, in the fiction, the future heir is a young woman named Leti Starsmere (if I run a game, and the RT can act in a way Korvallus accepts, they might earn the right; he's already semi-retired, and letting Lieutenants fly under him, for the most part, while he administers a little agri-world. Leti, at least, is a rather loyal Imperial, so she might freak when she finds out about this secret Korvallus has kept for most of a century.

Humanity hasn't just came with idea of 40k for a date from nothing, it's that very old and have long history - at least pre-Imperium and Imperium part of it. Also the big E isn't a moron (well, after some HH is debatable, but lets keep to the assumption). Both those tend to be extremely xeno and AI-haters.

As I understand Imperiums policy on such things: It's beyong any doubt there're bad (read: evil to the core) aliens and AIs also there's a chance that there, somewhere are good aliens and AIs.

In another universe it could be like that:

233.39M humanity encounters Zigzaks xenocivilization, they're cool so humanity allies with them;

342.40M humanity withc Zigzak allies encounters Schla'cheks xenocivilization, they maybe not so cool, yet we gave a chance to Zigzaks, so we won't be jerks this time either;

575.40M Schla'cheks betrays humanity using a devious plan and a moment of weakness of its former friends, billions die bla,bla, bla

It won't happen like this in 40k beacause apperantly they already went through this and remember their lesson. Every spiecies is fighting for survival and progress. Why shoot alien? - Why not, brother?

Melfina can be naive, childish one beign but she's a xeno AI with warp-connected powers and in-world I would should her first moment a have a chance to.

My only good argument there is what makes a Rogue Trader a Rogue Trader is sometimes they DON'T shoot first; they have a possibly unique ability to see both the good and the bad in something, or at least the potential profit.

Korvallus has a relatively fleshed out history, of sorts, so I can't really give a better excuse for his not capping her than "it's how I wrote it." If I try, then it comes out something like "Korvallus grew up, and through his life on Luna, saw many people simply live and die. What a waste some of that death might've been. When he grew older, he enlisted in the navy, becoming an Officer in Battlefleet Solar. Approaching the end of his second century, Admiral Korvallus had reached a point where his career could go no further (unless a Lord Admiral, or some such, died), but many of his colleagues, impressed by his decency and skill, wanted to see him go onto "bigger and better" things. From his POV, he had still watched many lives just get flung at problems; still seemed a waste. When he became an RT, he had paradoxically more and less responsibility, but he saw that he had more ability, on his level, to stop wasting resources, and people. He's a rare thing in the grimdark future; a genuinely "good man."

There's a story of how he got to go to Jericho, it went poorly, he got sent back with some stuff, and no one knew of the additional thing he brought (Melfina). Since then, it's been back to the Expanse, and success. Now he approaches the big 300, and has to look to what he'll do with what he's built.

Emperor strike him, but he's gotten to see how such dogmatic actions can waste valuable people, and many Rogue Traders keep things they shouldn't have, and anyone else would've destroyed. When Gaunt found the MoI STC, HE destroyed it; your average Rogue Trader wouldn't have; they'd have kept it for their own use, for a sale piece, or just an anomaly to ponder. If Leti, or a PC, get the job, maybe THEY'LL cap her, who knows? Was it because Melfina is a young, attractive lady, and Kovallus sort of feels fatherly toward her, having had no children? Has it been the degradation of Navigators he's seen over the centuries? (That's a related story with the Volaris House of Navs who guide all his ships, actually.) Don't know, personally. If anyone can ever say "I had an Ork character," or really said "I got to play this Necron," I really can't feel too bad; that's part of Rogue Trader, I guess.

Sorry if that came off as a bit over-defensive; it wasn't the point. I do just very much love talking about the stuff I wrote. Hazaah bias!

(...)

Not need to apologize as that's you work. As a matter o fact I'd like to add some more.

To me former, 300 year old Navy Admiral, who doesn't want to get promoted by dirty ways and respects humans life screams with one thing: resposibility.

Keeping Melfina in stasis isn't something fitting. I mean: he want to keep her like this forever - what a great guy! keeping her "daugher" basically as a decoration and risking his dynasty very existane if Inquisitiong, or Necron, or other RT, or Eldars or almost anybody finds out. Sorry, I don't buy it.

Maybe he wants to set her free at some moment? Like - when? When he is dying - he might just not manage this and then read upper paragraph. But ok - he set her and somebody will finds this out... Again: not something good or resposibile.

IMO he should provide her with Emperors mercy or set her to a mission beyond galaxy.

That's my 2 cents and sorry if I get a bit over-offensive.

I can see that.

For the stasis bit, he has her hidden in a cache of stuff he's gotten, over the years (more than that is something I sort of plan to maybe use, someday). He keeps her hidden because so many others wouldn't accept her, and she stays in stasis because otherwise she's sitting in a room, going stir-crazy. It's sort of like being frozen till something better comes along, or until you get to that faraway world. Korvallus has an associate named Ethan Dragmiri, who is his chief over-seneshal. He happens to be a Blank, and a rather dour spymaster of a guy. After Korvallus entered semi-retirement, he mostly withdrew to be around Valos III, where Korvallus is administering the little agri-planet. He periodically interacts with Melfina, who isn't off put by his Pariah gene effect.

Sadly, while I like that I tossed her in, I never hammered out a specific plan of where her path would go; a side-effect of random writing without any need for full detail, as I'm not running a group. If the Necrons were more sleepy, still, a ship returning to the Reach could benefit, and have little oversight, but a good use for her, I never came up with; sort of thought some players might like some freedom to.

Thank you for your interest.

Well looking at all the source and fluff it seems like a big weakness the Mechanicus have as a group is that they see AIs in their sleep and jump up to destroy them but they create the damned things left and right without realizing it. The average Mechanicus acolyte is such a chump that he probably thinks that an electronic unit works on the principle that the smoke is kept inside because when the smoke comes out it stops working, yet the very same ******* when it comes time later in his career to build a titan or a starship or whatever will create an AI in ignorance just because he's following a 15,000 year old spec yet it doesn't matter because that Titan or whatver needs that AI to function and the AI is stuck where it is due to how it was constructed.

On the other hand take the same AI and set it loose randomly in some cogitator storage sub basement and it will kill half the local mechanicus population before they realize what's going on, not because it's particularly good at what it's doing but rather because they're a bunch of morons and it's basically a confused infact doing whatever the hell it feels like moment to moment.

Well looking at all the source and fluff it seems like a big weakness the Mechanicus have as a group is that they see AIs in their sleep and jump up to destroy them but they create the damned things left and right without realizing it. The average Mechanicus acolyte is such a chump that he probably thinks that an electronic unit works on the principle that the smoke is kept inside because when the smoke comes out it stops working, yet the very same ******* when it comes time later in his career to build a titan or a starship or whatever will create an AI in ignorance just because he's following a 15,000 year old spec yet it doesn't matter because that Titan or whatver needs that AI to function and the AI is stuck where it is due to how it was constructed.

On the other hand take the same AI and set it loose randomly in some cogitator storage sub basement and it will kill half the local mechanicus population before they realize what's going on, not because it's particularly good at what it's doing but rather because they're a bunch of morons and it's basically a confused infact doing whatever the hell it feels like moment to moment.

And there you have the wonderful irony that makes 40k such a fun universe.