Just going to post all my thoughts about the current armour and changes we might need.

Acquisition and Currency

First off, I really think we need a currency. It helps immensely with immersion, and fits the low level gameplay of Dark Heresy. Bringing back Thrones could be done rather easily.

Those who don’t want a currency don’t need to use it, but it just seems necessary in places where Influence simply can’t reach, or makes no sense. And it also acts as a reward system for the players, as well as being a gate to slow down rapid acquisition of powerful gear.

I have no problem with using influence to acquire items, but only at the right now. It’s for between session moments, when you can contact your superiors, or when you have the time to wait out the process of a favour being delivered. An acolyte walking into a seedy under hive store and rolling his influence to pick up a new gun is boring. Money also adds a little management challenge. All in all, I think it needs a comeback. It doesn’t even need to be implemented very hard, just a description and a price for most items.

I like being able to start with anything up to -10 for free though, that’s a good choice. However I foresee the Administratum background being VERY popular, since it allows you to start with much better gear.

And if we can’t have currency, then we at the very least need those incredibly useful modifier charts from RT/BC/OW back. Even if we do get currency back they are needed. Right now you can’t acquire multiples of almost anything without the GM’s ruling. And you should be able to acquire weapons and modifications as part of one acquisition, like in previous systems. Otherwise starting gear feels really boring, and it takes a lot of acquisitions to build even a simple pistol into something cool

The addition of making your own Combi-Weapon is awesome.

Craftmanship

I really liked the addition to armour craftsmanship from Black Crusade, where a good or best suit would give you a +5 modifier to a social check of your choice.

This should be brought back for sure!

Weapon Qualites

Accurate: I agree with the choice that only the first die can cause Righteous Fury, purely for game balance. Otherwise Accurate is just too good, with a +20 to hit on most attacks, and a nearly 30% chance to inflict RF.

Mention this because a lot of people want all dice to inflict RF. In my groups first Heresy games, we used all 3 dice, and it made whoever picked up a Hunting Rifle into the God of War.

Felling: Should cut through regular Toughness as well as Unnatural. It was initially created to bring down some of Deathwatches ridiculously tough creatures, but now enemies with more then 4 unnatural toughness are rare. And if you aren’t even facing them, it just feels like a waste of a quality.

Flexible: Can Flexible weapons be used to parry? RAW it seems so, but there have been references in past books that say otherwise.

Power Field: Can power weapons please destroy most natural weapons? I’ve rarely seen a creature who’s natural weapons weren’t it’s teeth, claws or fists. Thats going to hurt. Maybe let them keep their natural weapons but they take the damage minus SB.

Proven: A quality I’ve always laughed at, or ignored. The only time I’ve ever considered it useful was the Triplex from Only War, with its Proven 5. This was a good example of Proven being great. If you put it on more weapons, make it more like that. I’d say 4 at the lowest. After that and it just feels pointless.

Scatter: I was never a fan of this change to scatter, since it just leaves Shotguns high and dry compared to other weapons. Moreso in Only War, where getting close to your enemies usually meant death. Maybe up the Damage to +4? Even a little boost would go a long way.

But I still think the original Scatter is still the best choice. It could really deliver some carnage.

Just never again introduce a Full Auto Shotgun. The Vanaheim. Oh god the Vanaheim.

Shocking: This should be more like sapping from the first Beta. Instead of Stunning, inflict Fatigue equal to DoF

Toxic: GauntZero suggested in another thread that Toxic be delayed 1 turn. This is a great idea. Gives detox a real purpose, and actually feels more like poison spreading.

Weapons

The weapons are all pretty good. The usual suspects. I don't think much adjustment is needed. I’d like a bit more variety, but I know it’s just the first book, and we’ll be seeing sourcebooks crammed with new ones. Compared to the amazing amount of tools, modifications, and cybernetics, the weapon selection just seems small.

Grenade Launchers should be able to load one shot at a time, in return for a lowered reload time.

Graviton weapons are a neat addition from the Tabletop

I was about to complain about the Hunting Lance being in the book, and then I remembered Vehicles are integrated now, and am currently envisioning a convertible full of Acolytes wielding Lances storming the Heretics fortress.

The Grenade list is excellent. But Anti-Plant? Really?

Is the Omnissian Axe supposed to have more damage? 1D10+4 seems sorta low for a giant power axe.

Weapon Mods

Like I said earlier, acquiring mods should be wrapped into acquiring weapons as well. The old rule of lowest availability -10 per addition.

Why are Low-Tech weapons not allowed Exterminators? My Chainsword can have one, but not my regular Sword? Strapping a one shot flamer to a giant hammer was one of my favourite mental images when I fists started playing.

I’ve always wondered, was Overcharge Pack supposed to be in special Ammunition? It really seems like it.

I’d like to request the mods from Blood of Martyrs that allowed you to add the sanctified quality to your weapons. Either for one encounter cheaply, or forever but you’ll need a high ranking priest and a lot of money.

Glad to see Vox operated has arrived. Its my favourite mod.

Great section! I love all these options

Custom Ammunition

Dumdum bullets could use a 2 point damage boost. As it is, expander are better, because nearly every enemy will have at least 1 point of armour. And if it was +3 damage, then Manstoppers still outweigh them most of the time. Dumdum should be dangerous, but only when you exploit weaknesses with called shots and and assassination type shots.

Can we remove Explosive Arrows in exchange for Mono Arrows? Removes Primitive and +2 Pen, Razer Sharp. And add SB to the bow, while we’re at it.

Then I’d actually use a bow.

Glad to see Tox and Scrambler made it through from the Beta! Both seem pretty cool.

Protective Gear

One thing I’d like to see back from the first beta, and I know others do as well is the inclusion of agility caps.

They shouldn’t be brutal. Power Armour could still be as high as 40, but just something to prevent agility being the God stat.

Most armour doesn’t even need it, just Carapace and Power really.

40 and 50 could be the limits for them.

Anyone ever play “Ascension: Vindicare in Power Armour Edition”?

One thing that has always bothered me about Mesh and Flak Cloaks is that cloaks would be useless in face to face combat. You need them to be open so you can do anything, meaning your front is exposed. Maybe they reduce AP by 1 when you are engaged with someone directly in front of you.

Good section with good variety. Would like to see armour mods return in the future.

Forcefields

Almost unnecessary in Basic Heresy. If I had to choose I’d see them stripped down to just refractor and conversation and put into the gear section, and save the rest for later. Open up room for new stuff.

Gear

This section is fine. Seems like it should just be folded into 1 section with Tools

Drugs

Drugs. Lets face it, are sort of boring. I was excited to see some of the changes in Beta 1.

Excessive drug use rule can limit you to one use a day, quite frustratingly. It should have a +20 bonus to the toughness test, as well as the cumulative -10. More chances to use the drugs.

Addiction rather quickly leads to a spiral of infinite fatigue loss. You should only be tested on Addiction once a day per drug type.

Desoleum Fungus: Cool example of good drugs. More like this.

Detox is useless, but thats mostly Toxic Quality’s fault. If that changes it would be decent.

The best use I’ve ever found for it, was forcefully injecting it into other people to stun them. Certainly not it’s intended use.

Frenzon should force the user into Frenzy. Otherwise it’s just a Fearless boost with no downside.

Stimm should allow immunity to all critical effects until it wears off, and also ignore the effects of fatigue

Slaught is decent, but I really miss that ability it had in Beta 1, where you always gained a surprise sound in combat. Though it might be a little too powerful now, with the current surprise rules.

At least instead of increasing PerB, it should give you a +20 to perception tests. AB is fine.

Instead of useless things like Tranq and Obscura, can we get some additional Toxins to load into weapons?

Overall I think we just need some new interesting drugs, actually worth using.

How about a “Healing Potion” style drug. Something that shuts your body down (stunning or fatigue) but quickly regrows your damaged flesh. Like D5 Wounds restored, but stunned for d5 rounds.

We don’t always have a medic handy.

Or a drug to stop blood loss.

Also bring back Slam! The most terrifying, but useful drug

Tools

This section is awesome! Loads of toys from the other system now all piled in one place. I like it.

The only downside is that there are so many useful things, acquiring them will take you forever

Also Null Rod has the availability of “Punishing”

Services

Again, useful and not much to change.

Cybernetics

And finally the complete cybernetics list. Awesome variety here as well.

Would like to see some of the Heresy 1.0 bionics make a return, like the Malfian Dermiguise, or the Lanrian Revealer. Renamed to Askellien standards of course. Or even just new things, as long as they are in sector flavour.

Question: Is Maglev Coil supposed to be able to be acquired by anyone?

I like that, but was just wondering if it was a mistake or not.

So those thats that. Ended up being a lot longer then I anticipated. Anyone have any thoughts?

I’ll probably remember more later and edit.

Regarding cybernetics it would be nice to see 2-3 which could replace some still missing old DH1's Techpriest talents like the different Rites, Feedback Screech or Technical Succour.

I think with a change to Beta1's fatigue system, drugs and toxins have new options to be designed - would help them a lot.

Also I would like to have money back, but I guess thats to big of a change.

Proven is useless in most cases - I agree on that.

Maybe accurate should only trigger RF with the bonus dice if used with a called shot + aim ?

Would simulate an assassins style and also improve Called Shots from their now not very usefull state.

In this case I'd like to have an equivalent for melee sneak attacks though (maybe a new weapon trait Sneaky for knives, daggers and such ?)

That could be a good option for more cybernetics, but they would also work fine as just talents.
I was toying around with the idea of turning Mechanicus Adept into an elite advance as well. I think it would fit very well mechanically, just not fluff wise. But then you could have your special Tech-Priest only talent tree and such.

Drugs in general just need an overhaul. I feel that since they hardly ever get used, the same boring basic set just gets copied and pasted over and over. We need some useful ones dammit!
And yeah, fatigue going back to Beta 1.0 would be great.

Money would not be hard to implement, in my opinion. Just give everything a price, and explain what Thrones are. If you want something, you roll to find it with an acquisition test or inquiry test, and if it's a relevant area where you have no real influence, then you pay the throne cost.

Actually, just had an idea for proven. Maybe Best Quality Ranged Weapons could have a choice between Never Jamming and Proven (4-5). That'd be a good way to get it out there, and be pretty useful for some weapons.

Or if its a full action Aim. If someone is investing a full turn and a half turn, then it's a decent trade off.

There already is bonus damage on unaware targets isn't there? You roll damage twice. Or that might just be a rule from Heresy 1.0

Good idea for proven !

I also share your oppinion about drugs.

And most people I have heard prefer the Beta1s Fatigue to the current...lets see if they make it return. A lot of people would be glad I guess.

As a GM and a player I have absolutely no interest in dealing with money. Including money in a game, in my experience, invariably turns it into a game about getting money. It also assumes an economic system whereby one has money, shops and has a consumer economy.

I think money is something that divides players.

Wouldnt hurt to have a price if easily possible for the devs.

I don't really have to push for a money system, since I will be using one no matter what, just copying the Macharian Handbook prices. But it would still be great to see. It could even just be an option. You still need to use influence or inquiry to find the weapons anyways, and if you have a moneyless system, then you acquire it. If the GM wants money in, then you might need to pay for it.
And I don't think it's that hard to prevent people becoming money grubbing murder hobos. Just take steps like never having money actually on mooks and stores not accepting the acolytes blood covered pile of weapons.

It's not all consuming important that it makes it in, but I just feel like there needs to be an option for it, because Influence just makes no **** sense half the time, and simple rolling for gear is really boring, a problem I've had since RT.

As I said - I share your interest in money. I'd love to see it. I just guess its a front of wasted bullets.

And if I had to chose between money and the beta1's fatigue system, I'd chose fatigue

The only problem with money is that it's far too easy to save in DH. There are no money sinks and items don't have the same type of availability as most other fantasy based games.

Easier to save is still better then "Roll dice, receive reward"

Plus I often have lots of situations where the players need to spend a few Thrones. Bribes, drinks, rooms.

Especially bribes etc. are a good reason to have at least an abstract way to have money.

Like "a little", "a lot" etc.

Easier to save is still better then "Roll dice, receive reward"

How is it any different from "roll dice, convince someone" or "roll dice, shoot someone?"

I prefer the Influence system because it allows for far more variety of options and interpretations. Getting gear can range from "go down to the local gun store and buy a gun" to "requisition a gun from the local IG armory" to "call in a favor with the local hive gang boss for a gun" and more all under one system. Having, and tracking, money only allows for one of those and assumes a Western style consumer economy.

In general, in games, we're used to the kind of simple economics of "I want X. Do I have the money? Yes, then I go to the store and buy X." The trouble is, that isn't even realistic in real life. If I want X, the question isn't only do I have the cash on hand. The question is also: do I have enough in bank account after I pay my rent, groceries and other bills? What about my credit cards? Can I get a bank loan? How about a government grant? Maybe I can get some help from friends or family... It goes on and on... and Influence covers all of that and more under a rather simple mechanic that prevents getting equipment from being an adventure in it's own right.

I've played in games where you had to count every silver penny and I've played in games that ignored money entirely. I far prefer the latter... if I want to keep track of money, I have my own real life bank accounts to worry about.

Easier to save is still better then "Roll dice, receive reward"

How is it any different from "roll dice, convince someone" or "roll dice, shoot someone?"

I prefer the Influence system because it allows for far more variety of options and interpretations. Getting gear can range from "go down to the local gun store and buy a gun" to "requisition a gun from the local IG armory" to "call in a favor with the local hive gang boss for a gun" and more all under one system. Having, and tracking, money only allows for one of those and assumes a Western style consumer economy.

In general, in games, we're used to the kind of simple economics of "I want X. Do I have the money? Yes, then I go to the store and buy X." The trouble is, that isn't even realistic in real life. If I want X, the question isn't only do I have the cash on hand. The question is also: do I have enough in bank account after I pay my rent, groceries and other bills? What about my credit cards? Can I get a bank loan? How about a government grant? Maybe I can get some help from friends or family... It goes on and on... and Influence covers all of that and more under a rather simple mechanic that prevents getting equipment from being an adventure in it's own right.

I've played in games where you had to count every silver penny and I've played in games that ignored money entirely. I far prefer the latter... if I want to keep track of money, I have my own real life bank accounts to worry about.

I just prefer not to have acolytes that are as rich as nobles running around buying anything that they want, paying for loads of mercenaries, or having enough money to have side businesses going on.

As I said in a previous thread:

Currency only really works when all factors are taken into account such as:

1. All planets have the same/close to the same currency and economic factors
2. All planets have the same/close to the same availability for items.

Technically, we should have a guide on availability for items by planet type anyway.

Easier to save is still better then "Roll dice, receive reward"

How is it any different from "roll dice, convince someone" or "roll dice, shoot someone?"

I prefer the Influence system because it allows for far more variety of options and interpretations. Getting gear can range from "go down to the local gun store and buy a gun" to "requisition a gun from the local IG armory" to "call in a favor with the local hive gang boss for a gun" and more all under one system. Having, and tracking, money only allows for one of those and assumes a Western style consumer economy.

In general, in games, we're used to the kind of simple economics of "I want X. Do I have the money? Yes, then I go to the store and buy X." The trouble is, that isn't even realistic in real life. If I want X, the question isn't only do I have the cash on hand. The question is also: do I have enough in bank account after I pay my rent, groceries and other bills? What about my credit cards? Can I get a bank loan? How about a government grant? Maybe I can get some help from friends or family... It goes on and on... and Influence covers all of that and more under a rather simple mechanic that prevents getting equipment from being an adventure in it's own right.

I've played in games where you had to count every silver penny and I've played in games that ignored money entirely. I far prefer the latter... if I want to keep track of money, I have my own real life bank accounts to worry about.

What I am suggesting though is both systems working at the same time. I even prefer influence when influence would actually matter. But I'd like currency for the gritty down in the under hive type stuff

It could work if the system was built to use it. As it stands, it really isn't and that's the problem.

I just prefer not to have acolytes that are as rich as nobles running around buying anything that they want, paying for loads of mercenaries, or having enough money to have side businesses going on.

Plus I often have lots of situations where the players need to spend a few Thrones. Bribes, drinks, rooms.

In general, I prefer abstract economic systems, like the PF of RT, the Resources of Storyteller etc.

But if the idea is "down and dirty", experience tells me that having some form of explicit monetary system - be it thrones, nuyen or shirt buttons - is an advantage for games. For exactly the reasons mentioned.

And for all the times you need to aquire something without announcing just who you are, this should be cash.

On the other hand, if we could get rid of the idea of the PCs-as-murder hobos... almost anything would be worth it.

As I said in a previous thread:

Currency only really works when all factors are taken into account such as:

1. All planets have the same/close to the same currency and economic factors
2. All planets have the same/close to the same availability for items.

Technically, we should have a guide on availability for items by planet type anyway.

But for the same reason, so does Influence. How does a character that has never left the Hive before have influence on other planets? Or even within the strata of the same Hive? I can honestly say in all the DH I've played, multiple currency types have never come up. You end up with those AD&D source books that detail the history of every type of currency in the whole realms, on the off chance that the horde you find has coins no longer in circulation! Thrones was basic enough to work for a generic sector-wide economy. And Influence works fine as circumstantial in my opinion.

Thing is - Influence is something abstract that might indeed be a shifting factor from one situation to the next.

Money (at least money that you phisically own) is there - definitely there.

If you wanna bribe someone in the underhive, it makes a difference if you know that you have a "lot" Thrones with you, or if you have to roll for Influence, having no ideas if you Influence works.

In some situations, cash is just better. Even if the guy hates you, if he loves money, he'll take the bribe. I wouldnt wanna let the Influency roll decide in an abstract way, IF he is such a guy and IF you have enough with you.

I actually like the scatter rules. I loathed the huge gamble with shotguns in the first edition. You either got one big solid hit or sometimes absurd amounts of hits. With a good BS of 40, +30 for point blank and +10 for the aim, and hell toss on a red dot for another +10 you got a 90 to hit which if you rolled 20 or lower meant 4 massive hits and 4 righteous fury chances that will shred most normal enemies. However anything tough or armored just takes 4 big ol zeros for damage. Now that shotguns can slap out 1d10+7 point blank you can get some big numbers.

Also what is up with the shotguns in general? The 8 ammo one is listed as a single shotgun, The pump only does 1d10+3 and holds 12 and the combat is back up to 1d10+4 and holds a staggering 18 shots!.

I think this should be amended to 1d10+4 damage for all of them. Single's name changed to Double and has a magazine of 2 and S/*2*/- for fire rate to represent using both triggers as well reload 1 full action.

Pump 8 rounds and combat 12 for magazine size.

That way you get a double barrel as the cheap option but the double barrel firing and quick reload allows it to be a good back up gun.

Pump is middle ground more shots slower reload.

With combat being the upgraded pump.

Though if any kept 1d10+3 damage it should be combat to be the downside to its high fire rate, large capacity and reload speed. making all three options viable.

I think scatter should get blast (1) where the scatter weapon gets -3 damage (long & extreme ranges) to simulate the spreading load. Otherwise its perfectly fine

Single's name changed to Double and has a magazine of 2 and S/*2*/- for fire rate to represent using both triggers as well reload 1 full action.

if you want to represent the classic double shotgun then go with a Fire Rate of S / - / -, Clip 2, and Storm.