I actually find mixing personal and vehicular combat to be a cinch. The last session I ran had, of all people, the party Trader getting into a disruptor pistol vs. lightsaber duel with a renegade Blackguard while the Scoundrel and Doctor took on a flying rancor inside their modified airspeeder. The rancor was shot out of the sky and one of the players spent a Destiny Point to have it land between the Trader and the renegade Blackguard, increasing the difficulty of the Blackguard's next attack. But the rancor's fall prompted Sleheyron's planetary defense force to shoot at it while it was still staggered on the ground, sending both the Trader and Blackguard scattering for cover. Meanwhile, the party Bounty Hunter's starfighter took too much strain and began to crash, prompting him to leap out of the cockpit, activate his rocket boots, and dive down to join a battle with another renegade Blackguard. The session right before that one, the party Scoundrel got into an airspeeder chase with a Hutt's majordomo, and ended up getting into a fist fight while making the occasional Piloting (Planetary check) to keep the majordomo's speeder from crashing.

Everyone had a great time, and the rules didn't trip anyone up or do anything other than make the game feel as cinematic as any Star Wars film or episode of The Clone Wars.

Yeah - it's a narrative game, so keep the starship stuff narrative as well.

Being a narrative game isn't really an excuse for having bad rules. I much prefer it if one can deviate from the RAW if one wants to, instead of having to to get the game to work anything like you want it to.

I guess that's just a matter of opinion then. I think they are fine as-is, as it is NOT a "table top war-game" - it's a narrative device.

Yeah - it's a narrative game, so keep the starship stuff narrative as well.

Being a narrative game isn't really an excuse for having bad rules. I much prefer it if one can deviate from the RAW if one wants to, instead of having to to get the game to work anything like you want it to.

I guess that's just a matter of opinion then. I think they are fine as-is, as it is NOT a "table top war-game" - it's a narrative device.

That's still not an excuse for bad or (imho) vague rules.

If it was a true narrative device, it would need a lot less rules.

But what we have is some rules that are clearly half-assed, vague to a degree, and unhelpful at best. Individual fighter combat is deadly, and piloting skill has nothing to do with it. In star wars, there is no way we can see a great pilot like Wedge ever lose to a single Tie. However, in the rules as written this is a real thing that happens, as piloting skill means nothing really.

Combat with a group (ie, combat in a light freighter) isn't really any better. While the chance to survive goes up significantly, combat is boring for the pilot who really doesn't have much to do. And again, how good of a pilot you are really doesn't come into play in this system other then making your companions shots easier. It doesn't make you "harder to hit". The worse pilot in the galaxy is as hard to hit as Han Solo as they both can only take Evasive Maneuvers once.

But what we have is some rules that are clearly half-assed, vague to a degree, and unhelpful at best.

What do you mean clearly? I think they are fine as they are.

We really only see Han Solo being good pilot in the asteroid field. Remember the true measure of a pilot is not in jusy skill ranks but in talents as well. To make vehicle combat interesting you have to have it take place in more than an open area. The speeder chase on endors moon, the asteroid field that Han went into because he figured he could pilot better than the TIE pilots.

Have something scenery wise to interact with. Come up with interesting triumph results as a pilot.

GM and player have to narrate in equal measure.

As it was pointed out... space is pretty vast. Not every fight is going to take place in an asteroid field.

We know Wedge survives not just fighter combat in the first movie, but all the way past Return. Even when flying in an among the capital ships in Return it is still pretty open space. If you don't think being a good pilot has anything to do with flying a ship and avoiding hits, I have some top gun fighter pilots who would like to speak to you. Its more then just being able to fly around the tree, or asteroid, or whatever. A good pilot can tail, shake tails, brake and accelerate all while lining up a shot.

Think about all that in this system.

First of all, there is no reason, ever, mechanically, to ever go less then your max speed.

Second, you can't use your piloting skills to get a good shot and take it in the same round (without a second person).

Third, you can be the best starfighter pilot in the ENTIRE GALAXY and it doesn't mean a **** thing. You are still hamstrung by your max speed and silhouette which determines how hard it is to shoot you.

In almost all starfighter combats, it is better to forget piloting entirely and focus on vigilance (for the ability to win initiative and shoot first) and gunnery to blow them up first. And that is the problem. Space combat quickly delves into a "shoot them before they shoot you" slugfest that frankly isn't fun.

As it was pointed out... space is pretty vast. Not every fight is going to take place in an asteroid field. We know Wedge survives not just fighter combat in the first movie, but all the way past Return. Even when flying in an among the capital ships in Return it is still pretty open space. If you don't think being a good pilot has anything to do with flying a ship and avoiding hits, I have some top gun fighter pilots who would like to speak to you. Its more then just being able to fly around the tree, or asteroid, or whatever. A good pilot can tail, shake tails, brake and accelerate all while lining up a shot. Think about all that in this system. First of all, there is no reason, ever, mechanically, to ever go less then your max speed. Second, you can't use your piloting skills to get a good shot and take it in the same round (without a second person). Third, you can be the best starfighter pilot in the ENTIRE GALAXY and it doesn't mean a **** thing. You are still hamstrung by your max speed and silhouette which determines how hard it is to shoot you. In almost all starfighter combats, it is better to forget piloting entirely and focus on vigilance (for the ability to win initiative and shoot first) and gunnery to blow them up first. And that is the problem. Space combat quickly delves into a "shoot them before they shoot you" slugfest that frankly isn't fun.

Sums up all the problems my group has been having

It's mechanically advantageous to go slower when there are obstacles about. My players got into a shootout in a city, with starfighers dodging between buildings, and they definitely slowed down. As for piloting skill having nothing to do with anything, has anyone noticed that weapons only point in a single direction? Sometimes you need to make a piloting to check just to make sure you can shoot someone; failure means you "can't shake em'" and thus can't make an attack. Throw the Elusive Target talent in there, and suddenly vehicular combat DOES become about your skill.

Having run a bunch of vehicle battles in three different D20 games AND this one, I can easily say this one has the better ruleset and it's a nice, seamless one.

As it was pointed out... space is pretty vast. Not every fight is going to take place in an asteroid field.

You don't get XP for shooting ships.

I will also point out Hyperspace is the narrative process of making those boring travelling bits go away. In many instances one ship will hyperspace into combat with another. So jumping isn't something that just gets you into a system but it can get you pretty close to where you want to go.

So the question is, why do you think space combat won't ever include something to fight over? If you are playing EotE why are the players going to stay in open space for a fight, if they can just hit the Hyperspace Button and go somewhere else?

As it was pointed out... space is pretty vast. Not every fight is going to take place in an asteroid field.

We know Wedge survives not just fighter combat in the first movie, but all the way past Return. Even when flying in an among the capital ships in Return it is still pretty open space. If you don't think being a good pilot has anything to do with flying a ship and avoiding hits, I have some top gun fighter pilots who would like to speak to you. Its more then just being able to fly around the tree, or asteroid, or whatever. A good pilot can tail, shake tails, brake and accelerate all while lining up a shot.

Think about all that in this system.

First of all, there is no reason, ever, mechanically, to ever go less then your max speed.

Second, you can't use your piloting skills to get a good shot and take it in the same round (without a second person).

Third, you can be the best starfighter pilot in the ENTIRE GALAXY and it doesn't mean a **** thing. You are still hamstrung by your max speed and silhouette which determines how hard it is to shoot you.

In almost all starfighter combats, it is better to forget piloting entirely and focus on vigilance (for the ability to win initiative and shoot first) and gunnery to blow them up first. And that is the problem. Space combat quickly delves into a "shoot them before they shoot you" slugfest that frankly isn't fun.

No, not every fight will take place in an asteroid field or other more crowded area. Just the interesting ones, such as pretty much every ship combat in the movies. The trench run, Han's asteroid Dash, the bowels of the Second Death star, these all have hazards to avoid. It is up to the GM *AND* the players to make things interesting. The only real time we see ships out in the open is when the falcon is encountering the death star. The issue was there was NOWHERE to go and hide, so they got caught easily. That's the issue with being out in the open.

Now, if your friends 'Maverick' and 'Iceman' are experts in the area of space combat I'd love to talk to them. But everything you said these pilots can do, a pilot in this game can also do. Gain the advantage, evasive maneuvers all of these aren't just something that you roll for, it is something that you should describe. A round of combat is not necessarily doing one thing, it can be up to a minute of back and forth maneuvers. The point is, the game is designed around the GM and player narrating what happens. If all you do is say you do gain the advantage then that is boring. If you describe what your pilot does, then that's awesome and your GM should reward you for that by giving you boost dice.

There are reasons to go slower. The faster you go, the harder it is to avoid hazards (such as the aforementioned asteroid fields, etc) If you go really fast you don't have the same reaction time, so higher difficulty. Will this always come up, no. Should it be often. Yes.

You say you can't use your piloting skills.. here's the problem. I think you're confusing your ranks in pilot with being the only measure of how good a pilot you are. While it does factor in, it is NOT the only thing. You need talents to really shine as a pilot. Think of the skill as a knowledge of ship systems and how everything is supposed to work. It's like reading a text book and giving you a practical knowledge. When you star applying talents, your character can go beyond the textbook situations and excel. Now, you say a pilot has no option to line up a shot. That is false. Spend a maneuver to 'Stay on Target'.

You say being the best pilot doesn't count for anything, but once again, this is a falsehood. By the number of skill dice you have, no you can't do anything. But a pilot with the 'Tricky Target' talent counts their ship as one silhouette smaller. There's your better skilled pilot. Also, the 'Brilliant Evasion' and 'Defensive Driving' talents contribute to your skill at avoiding a hit. Much of what you want to do with a pilot roll, is done through passive talents.

I suggest that you might want to unlearn what you have learned about ship combat, and read over all the options a player can take AND the talents available. These can change combat substantially. Your skill ranking is NOT the only measure of your piloting skill.

Now, as to the going first is the only thing to do. I disagree. Say I go after an enemy in a starfighter dogfight, The enemy just missed me, I do a gain the advantage (so I can attack the undefended rear of the enemy ship - as I know they put their shields on double front) - I'm a Master Pilot so I do this action as a maneuver, I then stay on target, I then fire. Could I do the same thing by going first? Yes. However, considering how dangerous space combat is, going first I would consider a more defensive posture. Such as doing an attack, with an aim maneuver first, then doing evasive maneuvers. Going fully defensive and Gain the advantage and Angle my deflector shield. So many options. That's not even taking into account any creative thing I do by spending any triumphs or advantages I may have.

The description for the Piloting (space) skill says that sometimes you need to make a check to see "which weapons can be brought to bear", and the chapter on vehicle combat says that the rules are loose so that GMs and players can get descriptive.

What this means is that if a TIE Fighter screams past your Z-95 Headhunter and is now behind you, the GM may well require an opposed check (remember, TIE Fighters get 3 Boost dice to ALL Piloting checks) to turn around and begin firing. Fail, and that means the superior maneuverability of the TIE means "you can't shake em'" and you have to either pick another target within your firing arc or wait until another turn.

If you're GMing starship combat, I recommend familiarizing yourself with the rules, drawing out what's happening on scratch paper (not a complete map, just the basics), and the just do what feels right.

My players LOVE LOVE LOVE vehicular combat, and yours can too! Trust me.

I didn't like the space combat rules so I house ruled a system to fix a few things:

-Pilot skill level should matter for not getting hit

-Tracking speed is tedious and accelerating should not limit your movement

-The environment rules seem unclear

-Gain the advantage is tedious and not really helpful in most situation yet it's one of the few times a pilot can impact a fight with their skill level

-Escaping combat is too easy if you have a fast ship even if you have 0 pilot skill.

-Moving half a range band is awkward to track

-Why so many range bands where weapons do not matter

I like the chase rules so that's basically what we do with some additions additions.

I think they are marginally ok for an Edge game but I was really surprised and disappointed to see the same rules in Age. An x-wing in the hands of a great pilot should be a lot harder to hit and take out than an x-wing in the hands of an unskilled pilot yet I'm not seeing that in the rules.

I think they are marginally ok for an Edge game but I was really surprised and disappointed to see the same rules in Age. An x-wing in the hands of a great pilot should be a lot harder to hit and take out than an x-wing in the hands of an unskilled pilot yet I'm not seeing that in the rules.

Again, piloting skill DOES come into play. Read the description for Piloting (space); it says sometimes you have to make a check to see which weapons you can use. If an X-Wing pilot thus fails a check to turn around and blast a TIE Fighter, he can't attack that TIE this round or does so with a number of Setback dice. There are no hard and fast rules for this sort of thing, but it CAN be done within the RAW.

I think they are marginally ok for an Edge game but I was really surprised and disappointed to see the same rules in Age. An x-wing in the hands of a great pilot should be a lot harder to hit and take out than an x-wing in the hands of an unskilled pilot yet I'm not seeing that in the rules.

Again, piloting skill DOES come into play. Read the description for Piloting (space); it says sometimes you have to make a check to see which weapons you can use. If an X-Wing pilot thus fails a check to turn around and blast a TIE Fighter, he can't attack that TIE this round or does so with a number of Setback dice. There are no hard and fast rules for this sort of thing, but it CAN be done within the RAW.

I'll bite. Do your players know when those "sometimes" are or is that up to the GM? I agree it's a completely valid rule but a bit vague to be interpreted the same universally which is important to PCs.

And the main concern I have is that it's too easy to hit a good pilot. I'd rather the difficulty dice to hit C-3PO piloting an x-wing be different than a Rogue Squardron piloting in an X-Wing.

The players are well aware of when they require Piloting checks to "bring their weapons to bear", and that's whenever an enemy craft is assumed to focusing on them rather than attacking another target. An enemy craft to the port, starboard, or aft of a player craft (assuming there are no weapons mounted in those areas) requires an opposed Piloting check to attack unless the enemy craft happens to focused on another player/target. Maneuvers like Stay on Target only help if the check is passed (although Ive ruled that stuff like Stay on Target is part of that maneuver, rather than a separate one).

To recall a specific situation, the group once had to fly their Wayfarer-class medium freighter through a busy city while chasing a squadron of fast, maneuverable airspeeders. The airspeeders were all ahead of them, but I required a Piloting check each round before making an attack to avoid shooting traffic and buildings (I also liberally spent Destiny Points to make the checks harder and put some potential Despair results on the board). Even then, there were still two Setback dice due to the readily available cover and all the flashing lights; extra successes on the Piloting check allowed the players to ignore these Setbacks. Granted the players didn't understand ALL of this intuitively, but right from the start they were worried that they'd never get a clear shot with all the traffic and buildings.

The key is letting players and GMs alike in on the interpretation of certain rules. This allows players do ask "Can I try X or Y" without the GM flipping through a rulebook to see if it's okay. Just think about it, and if it seems hard up the difficulty or add Setback dice.

It should also be noted that this applies to enemy crafts as well, so with all the Piloting and combat checks being made in my games there are also lots of Boost dice, Setback dice, and even upgrades/downgrades being tossed around. It's all very frantic, which strikes me as entirely appropriate.

I can definitely see why people are having trouble with these rules, though, and I do agree that there could be more talents and whatnot for skilled pilots to take advantage of. That being said, nothing about the Dodge talent says it DOESN'T work in a vehicle (Side Step is a bit different, considering "step" is right in the name... walkers, maybe? lol).

While I'm not in agreement with everything Jonah says, the general creativity of his approach is what I'm trying myself. Slightly differently of course, but still along the lines of fun trumps rigidity. All that is needed is in there, and whatever else one wants can easily be based on that and derived from it.

That's the beauty of Edge of the Empire; every game group is going to be different, especially since the players get such a heavy hand in the narrative.

JonahHex,

I like your interpretation. Looking at that explanation I think we're pretty close in how we use the pilot skill. Especially opposed skill checks. At the very least I see your point is, yes, you need to make some pilot rolls to achieve some results.

Still, I'd think that if a roll to change your facing were required often, then the circumstances should be explicit and defined as part of the starship combat rules. For example, is the "lining up a shot" pilot check an action, a maneuver, or neither? RAW a skill check requires an action (except when it doesn't, which is another topic). Wasting actions on this back and forth to determine who finally gets the shot is a bit much. And a ship with gunners in turrets is already at enough of a supreme advantage over even a ship as maneuverable as an A-Wing.

I've house ruled a system that requires a pilot check (no action) at the beginning of the pilot's turn. The results of this can be used for varying movement, defensive, and offensive options. It's really in the same spirit as your rules but more codified. It's basically the chase rules with more defined options.

I've heard a very solid argument that Edge starship rules are good for the style game it is. I buy it for the most part--especially when you consider some pilot talents. But Age is a whole other game begging for a step up in starship combat rules. My opinion. It looks like the rules work well for a lot here and I don't begrudge them that at all.

I will say this again. Pilot 'skill' is not based solely on your ranks of pilot (space)! You need to have some talents geared towards piloting, the ones that lower the silhouette, remove setback dice, etc. Ranks in pilot space are necessary, but you need both skill ranks and talents.

Using the rules on chases is a GREAT idea, one that I've used from time to time. For instance, when one player was involved with a dogfight while the rest were involved in a tense negotiation/personal combat encounter, I used the chase rules to keep things simplified and to keep a single player from dominating too much time at the table. (This also allowed me to change scenes quickly, Return of the Jedi style).

However I believe I was misunderstood about facing. Players don't have to make checks to change facing, that's automatic; they have to make checks to change facing while chasing an enemy. Even on a failure I also allow the player to spend Advantages (3, to be specific) to make an attack anyway with a number of Setback dice equal to the number of Failure results. Or, of course, they can just pick a different target within one of their firing arcs.

If need be, I also give skilled NPC pilots talents like Defensive Driving, and at some point I might even give an ace pilot Elusive Target just to completely frustrate players with a single TIE Fighter or something.

As for ships with turrets being at an advantage, keep in mind that many such ships are either large or require a gunner. This means that smaller ships will be able to blast the crap out of them every round, same as they're doing. A small squadron of TIE Fighters thus has a pretty good chance to take out such ships, provided they don't have skilled gunners.

As for ships with turrets being at an advantage, keep in mind that many such ships are either large or require a gunner. This means that smaller ships will be able to blast the crap out of them every round, same as they're doing. A small squadron of TIE Fighters thus has a pretty good chance to take out such ships, provided they don't have skilled gunners.

Turrets are also generally restricted to either dorsal or ventral, so it's not usually possible to concentrate all turrets on a single target without some fancy flying.

Yup. Hence why Chewie was unable to use very many Evasive Maneuvers actions while Han and Luke were manning the turrets.

The advantage I'm talking about is the pilot gets an action (gain the advantage, full throttle, second maneuver with no character strain, etc.) and the ship still gets attacks. No such joy for a fighter pilot.

Oh, that made me wonder... since the YT-1300 is silhouette 4, and therefore can perform two pilot only manoeuvres per round (taking system strain), could it perform two evasive manoeuvres for two upgrades? Would you be ok with that? And how much "manoeuvring" would you allow in narrating evasive manoeuvre, or any other manoeuvre or action for that matter? like changing facing of dorsal and ventral? Thinking about turrets now.