Howdie Folks

I'm not sure if this is the best place to post feedback on DH2B1 as I appreciate the devs have moved onto B2 but some of the feedback given here will be cross compatible, whilst the rest is for those true believers!

Bit of Context; A group of orphans return to their old Schola Progentium, which has now fallen into disrepair with that section of the Hive abandoned to the Underhive. After travelling there, the access tunnel the group used collapsed, stranding the group. Fend for themselves, carve out new territory, flee back to the hive.

Context on house rules;

• Psykers balanced, keeping the full fury of the perils whilst ensuring options for both sanctioned and unsanctioned (new) & both have more options to mitigate/avoid perils (i.e. undercasting a power below a psykers max psy lvl, means the psyker does not peril of double 1's, 2's 3's & so on).
• Weapon tweaks (Most pistols 1kg, hand cannons 5 clip, introduced a medium SP sniper, overcharging reduces reliable quality, item status effects reliable/unreliable)
• Talent tweaks (specifically fixing Influence power & Endurance has T50 not P55)
• Carry weights fixed (incremental 5kg, so +5, +10, +15, +20 for Sb 1, 2, 3, 4. Starts at 5kg for Sb1, 55kg for Sb5 etc)
• If a weapon (melee/ranged) RoF doesn't exceed 1, it gets +1dmg per additional DoS beyond the first.
• Silent weapons & Weapon audio ranges simply fixed.
• Mook/Vet houserule - Double Defence value (not inc. cover) = dead, 2 wounds = dead. Vets its 2-3 wounds only, not insta gibbing.
• Critter housrule - Triple Tb = dead. 2 (1-3) wounds = dead

So where to start? AP is brilliant, such a well executed mechanic that both defines & balances the game. From experience, games become broken when characters can increase the number of actions/unit of time, as compared to other PC's & NPC's.

Good points;

• AP as mentioned above. Speeds things up hugely. Intuitive.
• Wounds - Damage is lethal and the system scales nicely. 1-2 freebies then it gets messy. Players are scared of clubs & bullets alike.
• Talent/Attribute throttling - Having just attributes linked to rank, with subsequent talents with increasing attribute costs is self pacing. Having skills linked to the bonus makes them ever more costly without being prohibitive.
• Dealing with mooks is quick & easy.
• RoF - I was really worried about this. However it is not easy, especially with lower damage high RoF weapons, to overcome that damage threshold. I sprayed a ganger for 4 hits with a lasgun (normal setting) & only managed one wound, without cover. Lots of hits can be very damaging but this is very nicely mitigated by the difficulty of actually getting wounds through Defence Values.

Bad Points;

• Wounds - it does take time referring the the various tables. However due to its simplicity, it is one of the few things that can retain its content and be sped up hugely with an app/excel program. I.e. add in the final 'wound-effect' modifier after full defence value, add in location = set description. Pick from 3, per damage type.
• 'Surprise rounds' - We simply got wrong. We took it, old-school, as you had an entire pre-turn where-as now it is simply an 'act first' situation whilst preventing the pre-turn free 2AP to dodge.
• Use of difficultly ranges. Again, the mechanic exists, we just need to get more used to using it. More tests should have a scaled pass rate. I.e. an easy observe (P) check (+30) should provide limited information whilst the same Challenging Observe test (+0) should give more information.
• The use of the Delay Action took us a while to figure out (we're fine now). Basically, if you wish to wait, you must spend 1 AP holding off your attack. If you don't & still have spare, they can only be used for reaction actions. Perfect!

Hope you all find this all interesting. Happy to answer any questions!

I think that you may be referring to an older edition of the Dark Heresy Beta. Fantasy Flight has just overhauled the system, replacing it with the mechanics from Only War. Since Fantasy Flight, and these forums, don't really support the Beta anymore, I would recommend that you check out Dark Reign's forum space for the edition: http://darkreign.org/phpbbforum/viewforum.php?f=177

We'd love to hear your thoughts on the system, as well as your House Rules

I think that you may be referring to an older edition of the Dark Heresy Beta. Fantasy Flight has just overhauled the system, replacing it with the mechanics from Only War. Since Fantasy Flight, and these forums, don't really support the Beta anymore, I would recommend that you check out Dark Reign's forum space for the edition: http://darkreign.org/phpbbforum/viewforum.php?f=177

We'd love to hear your thoughts on the system, as well as your House Rules

erm... he pretty explicitly stated that

Howdie Folks

I'm not sure if this is the best place to post feedback on DH2B1 as I appreciate the devs have moved onto B2 but some of the feedback given here will be cross compatible, whilst the rest is for those true believers!

so yeah..

• Wounds - it does take time referring the the various tables. However due to its simplicity, it is one of the few things that can retain its content and be sped up hugely with an app/excel program. I.e. add in the final 'wound-effect' modifier after full defence value, add in location = set description. Pick from 3, per damage type.

I need to find someone with actual technology abilities to make one of these.

• Wounds - it does take time referring the the various tables. However due to its simplicity, it is one of the few things that can retain its content and be sped up hugely with an app/excel program. I.e. add in the final 'wound-effect' modifier after full defence value, add in location = set description. Pick from 3, per damage type.

I need to find someone with actual technology abilities to make one of these.

Excel = is extremely easy. Phone app - much trickier beast.

I can't seem to login/create an account soo..

Phone app - much trickier beast.

Eh, not that badly IIRC.

The GAE is almost like Java.

Anyone else still play the b1? Any comments?

My major problem with beta1 is how defence is calculated:

- It is easy to get high defence by getting decent armour and toughness, making combat feel much less lethal than it should

- It is quite possible that a character's inherent toughness is protecting them just as effectively as their flak armour

- Penetration only affects armour, so high toughness is actually better than high armour against anything that diesn't have low pen and felling

My solution: halve the Toughness bonus to defence, still playtesting it but it seems to have fixed the problem.

My major problem with beta1 is how defence is calculated:

- It is easy to get high defence by getting decent armour and toughness, making combat feel much less lethal than it should

- It is quite possible that a character's inherent toughness is protecting them just as effectively as their flak armour

- Penetration only affects armour, so high toughness is actually better than high armour against anything that diesn't have low pen and felling

My solution: halve the Toughness bonus to defence, still playtesting it but it seems to have fixed the problem.

In my scenario, players starting from scratch, we haven't met any problems yet. This is due to some homebrewed rules with the damage/tables.

Also, i will try to develop some more ammo choices and customizations, so Felling will be back (halving the target's toughness bonus).

In my scenario, the players just got the hands on a plasma pistol from an auction (no ammo following). But here, even on a average roll of 3d10 damage, most enemies would be nothing but ashe.

My major problem with beta1 is how defence is calculated:

- It is easy to get high defence by getting decent armour and toughness, making combat feel much less lethal than it should

- It is quite possible that a character's inherent toughness is protecting them just as effectively as their flak armour

- Penetration only affects armour, so high toughness is actually better than high armour against anything that diesn't have low pen and felling

My solution: halve the Toughness bonus to defence, still playtesting it but it seems to have fixed the problem.

Armour is simple; its what's available and it ranges from 1-5 with the stuff accessible. It can also be easily controlled/limited without changing much at all.

Toughness; Characters start with 25+2D10, ranges from 27-45 with an average of 36.

This can be improved to 86 by 27,000 experience or, more realistically, it may reach 50's. Its very limited by being linked to Rank & by costing increasingly large amounts.

Now; A character soaking 10dmg is pretty tough. However there are two main facts that balance this really well IMO;

1) Multiple Wounds take their toll and it is not unfeasible to beat a defence value of 10 with any decent weapon. All the more so with the DoS with ROF1< weapons gaining +1dmg.

2) Big hits take their tolls. Say hello to Mr Plasma gun. Or Mr.Ogryn fist.

Finally; This is what makes cover so important. It is also why it is so potent. You need to HIDE behind it, to gain its defence value protection and to physically GTFO of the way of incoming attacks, i.e. ducking down an alley, running from a Chimera!

While it isn't infeasible to take down a character with lots of shots, I just don't think having a rank 1 acolyte being capable of standing out in the open and tanking 12 lasgun hits before falling unconscious is the level of lethality I'm looking for.

It may not be infeasible to take down a character with lots of shots, I just don't think having a rank 1 acolyte being capable of standing out in the open and tanking 12 lasgun hits before falling unconscious is the level of lethality I'm looking for.

Well, In my group of rank 1 acolytes, 2 of them wields feudal armour. And the highest toughness is somewhere around 43.

Last time (and only), one of them got struck by a shock maul, and took 7 points of damage after TB reducing the damage (he got struckt in the head, without helmet). With my system, he should have the value of 12 on the table.

I can explain my rework of the beta 1. system, if you want

The system (read: Any system) is not perfect.

Unless you roll high teens on the damage table, the first wound won't make a den't. However simply gaining a wound, whilst not directly debilitating, should be a very dire thing for a PC to face.

Basically, for the system to work, the first hits are often very mediocre. However it does scale and it scales well, after the first few 'freebie' hits. I like how the revised (updated) tables work, I don't feel they need changing.

To make the game work, change as little a possible.

Example Shock Maul: That first 'wound' wasn't a direct hit but rather a poorly dodged blow, jarring the PC's neck and slowing him/her down. More vulnerable to further hits. Later wounds is when the shock maul starts connecting.

By all means explain away...

Edit:

While it isn't infeasible to take down a character with lots of shots, I just don't think having a rank 1 acolyte being capable of standing out in the open and tanking 12 lasgun hits before falling unconscious is the level of lethality I'm looking for.

Again, please work from a position of facts. 'Tanking 12 lasgun hits' if frivolous in the extreme.

Are we assuming an average roll of a non-overcharged lasgun? What AV+TB (i.e. defence value).

Details, details!

5 wounds (i.e. a 25+ wound effect) is all that's needed to drop a character (ignoring fatigue, another great mechanic).

*snip* See above

Ok, target rank 1 acolyte has Toughness 40 and Flak Armour, he is standing out in the open. He's attacked by a squad of rogue Guardsmen, who unleash a hail of non-overcharged lasgun fire, getting 12 hits in total. With a defence of 9(8), only 4 shots manage to get through. First shot (11 damage) deals a wound with no effect, second shot (11 damage) deals a wound with no effect, third shot (9 damage) hits the head and deals a wound that fails to daze the target, fourth shot (12 damage) hits the body and deals a wound that sets the acolyte on fire.

From 12 shots, the acolyte has willpower decay and the burning condition, but is still conscious and capable of fighting back/fleeing. Now, I'm not the sort of GM that would ambush a lone rank 1 acolyte in the open with a squad of Guardsmen, but if I were I'd expect a burnt corpse to be all that's left of them after a whole round.

Well, my own system is a bit more dangerous than the common one, but that goes for elites too. Mooks are ofc vulnerable to a few wounds.

I would send a mook less than normally, for the reason that normal weapons like lasguns and autoguns are very dangerous in itself. A sniper rifle with the erreta is very dangerous, due to vengeful (which is reworked, gaining double the amount of RF chance by doubling the wielders' BS/WS bonus).

I want my players to work together, else they will die for sure - maybe the reason to this is because they have 2 freaking chiriugeons.. maybe not

Well, my own system is a bit more dangerous than the common one,

I'm on to your game Sindri. Even dressing like a khornate? We're always watching.

Ok, target rank 1 acolyte has Toughness 40 and Flak Armour, he is standing out in the open. He's attacked by a squad of rogue Guardsmen, who unleash a hail of non-overcharged lasgun fire, getting 12 hits in total. With a defence of 9(8), only 4 shots manage to get through. First shot (11 damage) deals a wound with no effect, second shot (11 damage) deals a wound with no effect, third shot (9 damage) hits the head and deals a wound that fails to daze the target, fourth shot (12 damage) hits the body and deals a wound that sets the acolyte on fire.

From 12 shots, the acolyte has willpower decay and the burning condition, but is still conscious and capable of fighting back/fleeing. Now, I'm not the sort of GM that would ambush a lone rank 1 acolyte in the open with a squad of Guardsmen, but if I were I'd expect a burnt corpse to be all that's left of them after a whole round.

Your argument seems to suggest that TB+Armour (defence value) & wound tables are flawed.

I suggest that the squad of guardsmen are stupid for not firing on overcharge versus a person in body armour. Or how about aiming for the head. Or (homebrew), when firing single-shot over-charged shots, they gain additional damage for extra DoS.

The system works. Choices are important. Its easy to come up with silly-looking situations. 5 Guys charge one dude with evicerators (not proficient) and fail to land one hit - really those 5 guys should be able to deck one dude but the rules prevent it. Not because the rules are stupid but because the choices are bad.

Instead you could ask; GM, can you club this one-dude to death with my depowered evicerator, using it is an improvised weapon? Sure says the GM = Job done.

Edit; When you start to add pen effects, fatigue, extra damage on ROF1 weapons, its deadly enough. Making it deadlier is choice (not necessarily bad). However the system does work! Just test it. Trying giving every 5 rogue guardsmen a longlas and see how that changes things.