just having a discussion re the new Coldhands.

I believe that when Coldhands enters play and i remove a character from play that you could no longer play dupes of that character if it was a unique until coldhands is removed.

Is this correct ?

As long as the unique character isn't also in your dead pile, you can continue playing copies of them.

Removed from game is not the same as the character being in your dead pile. The rules state that you cannot play a copy of a unique character if that character is also in your dead pile.

Ok thanks for clearing that up

Another question.

Coldhands second part of his response is a passive

Player A has Daenerys in play

Player B plays Coldhands and removes Daenerys from play

Player A marshalls and brings in Daenarys from hand

A player plays Valor as a plot and both Coldhands and Daenarys die ( in moribund ).

The text on Coldhand reads ' When Coldhands leaves play returned the removed cards to play under their owners control'

As far as i can tell that is a passive and therefore the Daenarys that was removed from play is returned to play whilst there is another Daenarys in moribund waiting to be killed.

Is this possible ?

Yes. The copy is put into play as a dupe on the already moribund copy - and is subsequently discarded when the other copy is put in the dead pile.

yep. also, worth clarifying that you cannot use this dupe to save Danaerys, since the "save/cancel" step of resolving Valar Morghulis has already passed by the time Coldhands' passive resolves and the "dupe" comes back into play (hence ktom's wording that the dupe is subsequently discarded while the other copy is already moribund )

Another question.

Coldhands second part of his response is a passive

Player A has Daenerys in play

Player B plays Coldhands and removes Daenerys from play

Player A marshalls and brings in Daenarys from hand

A player plays Valor as a plot and both Coldhands and Daenarys die ( in moribund ).

The text on Coldhand reads ' When Coldhands leaves play returned the removed cards to play under their owners control'

As far as i can tell that is a passive and therefore the Daenarys that was removed from play is returned to play whilst there is another Daenarys in moribund waiting to be killed.

Is this possible ?

What if Daenerys dies before the Valar? Where Daenerys goes? Discard pile?

There is some controversy on that subject, but the two sides go like this:

- Coldhands removes unique character copy #1 (say Dany).

- Opponent plays unique character copy #2

- Unique character copy #2 dies and goes to the dead pile.

- Coldhands is removed from play.

- Unique character copy #1 tries to return to play. It cannot because of copy #2 in the dead pile.

At this point, there are two options:

#1. Because unique character copy #1 is prevented from being put into play, the "return to play" effect fails entirely (for that character) and it stays removed from the game.

#2. Despite not being able to return to play, you still resolve as much of Coldhands' effect as is possible. Unique character copy #1 is therefore returned to the game , but goes to the discard pile (because it cannot put put into play).

That's the controversy. FFG hasn't said anything one way or the other, and there isn't really "general agreement" on why one option would be better than the other. So you may want to check with a TO as to which way they would rule at an event like a Store Championship if you are worried about it.

Personally, I find "B" more compelling for the following reasons:

A. Cards that have been "removed from the game" do not interact with the game in any way , unless something specifically says so.

B. Coldhands' "return to play" effect specifically refers to the cards that were removed to play.

C. That means they start to interact with the game when the "return to play" effect is initiated and the cards to be returned to play are identified.

D. Said another way, the cards are "returned to the game" as part of the initiation, though not "returned to play" until the resolution of the effect.

E. Because they are already "returned to the game" in initiation, the failure of the "return to play" effect to resolve successfully does not "undo" the return to the game (any more than a cancel would "undo" the cost or anything else that happened in initiation).

F. Because it is returned to the game, but not to play because of the other copy in the dead pile, the card is unassociated with any actual "out-of-play"area (hand, deck, Shadows, etc.)

G. The default in situations like that is to put the card in the discard pile.

I prefer option A. Coldhands specifies "return to play", not "return to the game". There is no precedent for an alternative destination when an effect fails.

There is no precedent for an alternative destination when an effect fails.

There's Deathbound events being canceled and trying to use "Breaking and Entering" to put a copy of a unique location/attachment that is already in the dead pile into play

The most parallel situation, though, is an attachment coming out of Shadows and failing to attach to anything.

Deathbound is covered in the rulebook: it applies only if the event is successfully played (the replacement effect doesn't take place at all if the event is canceled). For Breaking and Entering, it's the replacement effect that fails, so the card goes to the original destination (the discard pile). The same applies to Darkstar (whether he runs afoul of the rule about uniques or Fear of Winter).

Shadow attachments are a precedent, I admit. However, we still need FFG's answer on Coldhands.

For Breaking and Entering, it's the replacement effect that fails, so the card goes to the original destination (the discard pile).

Breaking and Entering isn't actually a replacement effect (no word "instead"). It's a passive effect that resolves when an INT challenge is won, giving the person who won the challenge the option of putting the card(s) into play. It's more like "Vengeful" than Darkstar in that regard.

However, we still need FFG's answer on Coldhands.

Never said we didn't. I was just giving my opinion on which option to use while we wait - and pointing out that there are indeed precedents, though admittedly of differing degrees of applicability.

The choice with Breaking and Entering is between discarding cards and putting them into play. If one cannot happen, then it is the other. Or Breaking and Entering puts cards into play from the discard pile and if that fails, the cards stay in the discard pile.