I think the entire armor sections needs to be redone and added to rather then a copy paste of old DH armor list. Not just more armor but armor with unique rules.

For starters primative armor needs to go down by 1 on average. Feudal plate is 5 points, heavy yes but its better then a guardsmens flak armor in the new rules. You make them comparable. Feudal 4, chain 2 with leather staying 1. Have a mono style upgrade that makes it less primitive so a feudal suit made of plasteel is now ap 5 and is sort of ceremonial carapace armor while chain main of thermoplas becomes bulky mesh armor.

Helmets should be standardized to the set. Either -1 ap of whatever suit they fit. If you make flak helmet ap 2 but the set is 3 and guard flak helm somehow gets ap 4. That or make it equal protection to the suited. It feels extremely out of place to have only suits get good helmets.

Perhaps expanding the various armor types out and throwing in a few more exotic bits. I know you can easily add whatever as GM but having a more solid base is always nice.

Have a few more subtle armor types a nondescript flakweave cowl/hood is ap 2 but a ap 3 flak helm or 4 guard flak helm attracts attention. Mesh is covert but only 3 ap.

More examples of industrial armor. Protective work helmets that allow you to blend in on a hive/forge world but have poor field of view and muffled hearing -10 awareness but +10 bright flash or loud noises. A slaughtermans chain vest for butchering AP 3 but on the front of the body and legs only.

As well some types of other indigenous armor to the sector. Perhaps leg guards used to ride glass steeds. Mechanicus Arma glass masks for exploring vacuum or airless environments. bulky Forge suits that protect against high temperature and fire damage. A lot of flavor here.

More in depth rules for customizing of armor. Weapons get an amazing spectrum of upgrades and there are so many to choose and use. Lot to work with here. You can have ablative armor that gives 2 points to a section but each attack removes a point and then has to be replaced. chem injectors which can be triggered remotely or when damaged. To specific armor type upgrades such as carapace, feudal plate and power armor can have hexagrammic wards to allow some protection to psychic attacks. Flak riot padding gives +1 ap to attacks from primitive weapons and Mesh armor insulation +1 ap to Energy attacks.

More armor that has special rules as well. Perhaps the bodyglove gets a +5/10 to dodge if worn with no other armor. The effect being both of padding if you take a dive and the flexibility and ease of movement as if you were wearing nothing at all.

The section just seemed one of the weakest points of the beta and of the original DH. You had an entire galaxy of interesting weapons, tools, drugs and cybernetics but the armor was sort of an afterthought getting a single page.

I agree that the current armour section is rather poor.

Some more amrours and a little balancing them out (with giving them all some kind of unique trait maybe) would improve this section a lot.

Also, I liked Ag caps for heavier armour.

I would like to see a armor special qualities table. Then each armor can have various rules from the list. as well as entry unique abilities. Followed by customization and addons same as weapons.

Flak would be a quality where it provides the extra point of armor if blast is not centered on the wearer. if we restrict dodge then armor has bulky, very bulky and extremely bulky quality to show what the cap is for that armor type rather then having to write it as a separate stat.

Some customization items in the vein of fluid action or custom grip. Perhaps with requirements outside of influence. Perhaps crafting kill tropies with trade mortifacator or affixing purity seals with trade scribe.

Though it seems like you get to the point of having such ornate armor it could effect subtley.

Armour special quualities - a superb idea !

It doesnt have to be a lot, but 5-6 would be sufficient.

Things like:

> fire-proof (X)

> heavy (negative trait)

> concealing (X)

> focus against a specific damage type

...

Perhaps the bodyglove gets a +5/10 to dodge if worn with no other armor. The effect being both of padding if you take a dive and the flexibility and ease of movement as if you were wearing nothing at all.

Wait, why does this make sense? If a bodyglove should grant a bonus to dodge because of the ease of movement as if you were wearing nothing at all, shouldn't you gain the bonus if you were not wearing any armor at all?

Also, I liked Ag caps for heavier armour.

So much of this. Also, the heavier armours need to provide a negative penalty to Dodge and other Agility-based tests. A guy in carapace armour should not be able to dodge as well as someone in a mesh cloak.

Armor check penalties are one D&Dism I'd really rather not see in DH2.

Really, have none of you seen people who do cartwheels in plate armour? It really are not that restrictive to wear armour. That is a myth perpetuated in rpgs...

Current rules for armour works pretty well. Primitive armour have half their AP against non-primitive weapons. It is easy enough to keep track of and makes modern armour superior against modern weapons. Likewise modern armour has double AP against primitive weapons. So well, there is a huge difference even if the AP is the same.

Really, have none of you seen people who do cartwheels in plate armour? It really are not that restrictive to wear armour. That is a myth perpetuated in rpgs...

Because if someone can cartwheel in plate armor they can dodge bullets and explosions perfectly in carapace or power armor carrying all of their bulky gear plus wielding their weapons? Storm trooper carapace armor weighs 15kg (about 35lbs). Even for someone specifically trained to carry around that kind of weight - plus all the other gear weight associated with being a stormtrooper, you are never going to be able to have same level of agility and maneuverability of someone running around in a skin-tight suit. I'm not advocating a -30 penalty to wearing carapace armor, but a -5 or -10 penalty on Agility-based tests just makes sense to me.

The real restrictive nature of wearing weight, howeverm is not even in maneuverability but in fatigue, which has continually be poorly modeled in the 40K RPGs. Why does gaining multiple levels of fatigue not increase the penalty to fatigue, I have no idea. The effects should progress as one becomes increasing fatigued and exhausted to the point in which the body fails. I am convinced that most people who have designed pen and paper rpgs have never been to a gym before, have never pushed themselves to the edges of the physical limits. Otherwise they would recognize that fatigue greatly effects the body's ability to act. At least the first Beta attempted to do something better with Fatigue, whereas the second version of the Beta took a step backwards by keeping the same joke of a -10 penalty irregardless of how many levels of Fatigue you have

Really, have none of you seen people who do cartwheels in plate armour? It really are not that restrictive to wear armour. That is a myth perpetuated in rpgs...

Because if someone can cartwheel in plate armor they can dodge bullets and explosions perfectly in carapace or power armor carrying all of their bulky gear plus wielding their weapons? Storm trooper carapace armor weighs 15kg (about 35lbs). Even for someone specifically trained to carry around that kind of weight - plus all the other gear weight associated with being a stormtrooper, you are never going to be able to have same level of agility and maneuverability of someone running around in a skin-tight suit. I'm not advocating a -30 penalty to wearing carapace armor, but a -5 or -10 penalty on Agility-based tests just makes sense to me.

The real restrictive nature of wearing weight, howeverm is not even in maneuverability but in fatigue, which has continually be poorly modeled in the 40K RPGs. Why does gaining multiple levels of fatigue not increase the penalty to fatigue, I have no idea. The effects should progress as one becomes increasing fatigued and exhausted to the point in which the body fails. I am convinced that most people who have designed pen and paper rpgs have never been to a gym before, have never pushed themselves to the edges of the physical limits. Otherwise they would recognize that fatigue greatly effects the body's ability to act. At least the first Beta attempted to do something better with Fatigue, whereas the second version of the Beta took a step backwards by keeping the same joke of a -10 penalty irregardless of how many levels of Fatigue you have

This post is just a goldmine of bad... We've got "makes sense" game design, a misinformed appeal to 'realism', "fat nerds making up rules" and "irregardless".

I'll give you the critique of the Fatigue system, but the rest... man.

In general I'd say armour primarily encumbers through its shape/volume (thats what the Beta1's ag cap was for) and its weight (thats what carrying limits are for).

If you want to balance out heavier armour, make the carrying limit more restrictive.

If you want to balance out heavier armour, make the carrying limit more restrictive.

That's what I have tried to work for, mainly by softening the curve at which the higher combos of Strength and Toughness expand the carrying capacity, and tweaking the way in which power armors boost a character's Strength Characteristic to fit with the general changes to carrying capacity.

And for the sake of strengths importance, make carrying capacity dependant on Strength only.

The idea being that you are armored while being unrestricted meaning you wouldn't have to concern yourself with being hurt due to enviromental hazards. Of course it might just be better if it was +10/+5 Stealth and perhaps silent move instead.

Going back to my Qualities for armor. The bodyglove and mesh armors would have the concealable trait that allows the armor to be worn under or appear as normal clothing. Allowing it a defined niche as a low AP specialists armor. Rather then a race to get to carapace as fast as possible.

Armour special quualities - a superb idea !

It doesnt have to be a lot, but 5-6 would be sufficient.

Things like:

> fire-proof (X)

> heavy (negative trait)

> concealing (X)

> focus against a specific damage type

...

That is an excellent start.

Heavy/Bulky (X) each point of heavy reduces agility related tests by -5 (10?) due to the bulk and weight of the armor. Flak & chain would be Heavy (1), Carapace and plate Heavy (2) though I am unsure if power armor should be 2 or 3 as its already hard enough to get and has a laughable 1d5 hour power limit (bring extension cords)

The idea being that exceptionally fast characters with high dodge should not have even more advantage in heavy armor then slower characters. Such as a nimble assassin with acrobatics putting on feudal plate or power armor for the AP bonus while still having a 50+ dodge. Those armors are still viable but they are better served by less restrictive suits. Else after enough sessions everyone just ends up being a storm trooper since there is no reason to use anything but that armor

As well some of the others

Fireproof (x) acts like armor points but only against being on fire.

Concealing (X) grants a +5 stealth. So Armored bodyglove with concealing (2) gets +10

Proofed (x) (type) this armor gains a bonus to attacks from this damage or weapon type. Feudal plate AP 4 Proofed (1) Primitive would be AP 5 when hit with a sword, bow or musket.

A Xenos hide mantella cut from a lava dwelling salamander could be Proofed (12) (Flame/melta) to reflect that this hide can not be burned or vaporized by extreme heat weapons. However the wearer could still be bludgeoned to death with the buttstock of a flamer or and the damage the melta gun does get through could likely leave the armor sitting in a heap of ashes.

Vulnerable (x) (type) This armor is found wanting when exposed to the effects of certain damage its ap counts as X lower when the wearer is damaged by this type. Possibly a bonus effect of poor quality like Black Crusade weapon drawbacks. Certain upgrades may add it as the basic protection is shifted.

Void (x) This armor is void sealed and allows the wearer to survive in vacuum or airless conditions. Each time the wearers armor is penetrated before toughness during combat in void conditions reduce this value by 1. if it reaches 0 then the suit is breached following the rules for exposure to void. A full round tech use restores Intelligence bonus (Half intelligence bonus?) in Void points up to its maximum value.

Armor modification works off the torso or suit for multiple location armor and like putting scopes on weapons many of them cannot be stacked. As they reflect a bulky upgrade to the suit. Several would increase the bulky modifier making them more effective at a task and allows them to stack with penalty.

Such as adding a upgrade that incorporates crude versions of power armor servos to the armor grants +5 strength but adds bulky (1) this can be combined with Riot Padding which adds Proofed (1) primative, Bulky (1). Both of which stack with bulky (1) on Flak armor making it Bulky (3). However a further upgrade to protection is blocked by the Padding taking up that slot.

While a upgrade that adds Void protection adds gives Void (4) Bulky (1). Contrast lets say the Boarding Armor from the Inquisitors Handbook or other stock armored void suit would have Void (6) or more as its built that way. The numbers obviously need to be balanced possibly scrapped depending on how unfun it makes fighting in void conditions.

Using this system we take can take basic Mesh armor and add a hooded cowl for AP 4 all locations. Then void Seal for Void (4) Bulky (1) then add for its one only enhancement to armor Energy Dampening Proofed (2) (E), Vulnerable (1) (SP,X)

We now have a unique set of armor to represent the bulky thermoplas suits worn by the Skitarii on a airless world/asteroid like Sollex. Where the most common weapon in use is las weapons as local conditions cause solid projectile weaponry to malfunction. If we were making it a unique suit we could make the void and bulk possibly higher to represent it being unique armor pattern rather then merely upgraded.

Written simply as: Mesh Skitarii suit: AP 4 Locations All, Void (4), Bulky (1), Proofed (2) (E), Vulnerable 1 (SP,X)

On the fly we can make any number of unique suits to represent unique armor types for the location. The local underhive gangs prefer to fight in the perpetual gloom wearing a poor quality version of the armored bodyglove that has a crude IR absorbing coating that is Vunerable (1) (E) but is still Concealing (2)

The elite gunnery teams aboard the Rogue Traders ship have flak uniforms AP 3 legs, body, and arms Bulky (1) with crude servo motors +5 strength Bulky (1) stacking to Bulky (2) to help them work the macro cannons. They each also wear a "Menials Crown" Pattern industrial helm that provides 2 AP to the head Proofed (2) (Primative) as well a -10 Awareness and +10 to tests to resist against sonic or blind attacks due to its tinted faceplate and deafening layers of padding.

Not every encounter needs to have such intricate armor. However its easier to do once a solid framework is already in place.

Hardened (X) could ignore X Penetration ;D

Hardened (X) could ignore X Penetration ;D

Huh that could be the thing that moves power armor from being carapace armor +1 into its own thing. If you are going to have it at all it should be almost its own section. Its a pretty big deal in system and fluff. Its also where all the rules unite. As its a sealed environmental suit which can incorporate all sorts of features depending on which artisan crafted it and what secrets they were privy to. Especially in the case of normal Pen 2 weapons like manstopper and mono weapons as well taking a bit of kick out of hellguns, power and plasma weapons. It keeps the armor hard without making an absurdly high AP such as 9 or 10. Though it could ruin the balance and make the rare instances where hardened comes up nullify basic penetration weapons as the base weapon becomes almost as effective as the specialized one. A very big shake up of a core mechanic.

Increase in size, bonus to strength, Bulky (4) Hardened (2) Void (8) Powered and Fireproof (4) (or half torso AP rounded up)

Powered: Power armor is a self supporting exoskeleton and incorporates dozens of machine spirits that boost the wearers strength and prowess in combat. The armors weight does not count for encumbrance as long as it is powered nor can the suits inherent bulky rating be raised or lowered.by standard modifications. Though powered armor only modifications may. Don't forget things like internal vox, nutrient recyc, magboots, targeting monocles and all sorts of techno arcane rules.

You get into advanced mods like ceramite plating which gives full AP against flame weapons plus proofed, Rite of analog which lets the armor and only the armors function count haywire fields lower then actual.

Power armor should be overpowered, its what the inquisitor suits up in to even stand a chance against a demonic incursion or heavy combat. Not something to sulk about investigating clues.As well as far as backward and forward compatibility especially in the case of Space Marines the black carapace knocks out bulk and ease of targeting due to size.

What about purity seals - they could also give a temporary armour trait if applied.

I could see Purity Seals as an item you apply to armour before a battle that soak a few points of damage from the first warp based damage you take in a fight.

Good quality information here. I'm liking the ideas rolling around in this thread.

Can't remember where I found it or who wrote it, but this little fan-made document on purity seals is pretty nifty.

This is just what the game needs.

I always thought of an armor modification as such of the one Terran power armour in Starcraft. If you get a Bleeding crit on a limb, it closes, losing the limb but cutting out the bleeding and letting the guy survive. It's cool and gritty, yep, and looks a thing an high quality powered armour could have.

I always thought of an armor modification as such of the one Terran power armour in Starcraft. If you get a Bleeding crit on a limb, it closes, losing the limb but cutting out the bleeding and letting the guy survive. It's cool and gritty, yep, and looks a thing an high quality powered armour could have.

Thats a good one. Modification that prevents the blood loss condition and possibly the bleeder round effect. Downside is once the hemostatic foam or liquid it releases is expended and/or causes additional side effects.

Fluffwise its a small cogitator, tubing and ampules on the small of the back. That picks up large amounts of blood loss. Then the blessed counter septics and hemostatic is released into the injured area.

Upsides could be: removes blood loss, bleeder round effect for duration of encounter. Mitigates first critical hit suffered.

Downsides incured might be: critical damage causes it to go off anyway, solution is effective but vile, stinks, causes pain, fatigue etc. Limited or single use.

Armour not having Special Qualities and a wide range of Modifications, just like weapons do, never made sense to me.

Limiting AB or otherwise penalizing Agility in heavy armours would also be much preferable to the old system of "6 AP or above = penalty, but never otherwise".