I haven't finished reading all of Beyond the Rim yet, but one thing that stood out right away were the detailed rules for Astrogation. I thought this was great. Often in SF games, Astrogation is a totally boring skill. Either you get there or you don't. It's not interesting to put points in the skill.

Here however, all the rules for choosing which route you take, and detailed effects of success and partial success, seem to make it interesting and relevant. It's one of the many things that determines whether you get there before or after the opposition (though I couldn't find how much time the opposition uses for the jump).

But there was one big hole: what happens if they fail the roll? This is incredibly relevant, because the route they choose determines the difficulty. They can take a bigger chance of failure in exchange for a shorter trip (if the roll succeeds). So failure should be pretty serious. But it doesn't say what happens.

Maybe it's explained in the rulebook? No, no details on failure either.

Now I understand that in many adventures, the effect of (partial) success and failure often need to be winged by the GM. Often rolling may not even be interesting at all. But here, the stakes are clear, and there's a lot of details specifying the effect of all the different possible results, except for failure. That's a pretty big and glaring hole.

Are there any errata for this? Will there be any?

Failure can mean several things, depening on what the GM feels appropriate.

The most obvious choice is that the ship doesn't enter hyperspace. However, unless you have a specific reason for not wanting your players to make the jump, this is also a boring option - and one that potentially closes some doors. Say, for example, that your players are running from Imperial ships and fail their roll. Do you have anything planned for the eventuality that they're captured? Will their capture derail the plot of your story rather than advance it? If so, you may want failure to mean something else.

One option is that it can place them in a less advantageous position once they emerge from hyperspace, relative to where they want to be. Another possibility is that they emerge in the wrong system or otherwise has a detour. You can also make the trip take even longer, or have something aboard their ship malfunction or break during the trip. Or you can simply have the failure delay their entry into hyperspace rather than refuse it outright. Give the Imperials a couple of extra rounds to pound on them before the jump.

Failed astrogation rolls are great GM tools for adventure. Just because they failed doesn't mean they didn't make it to their destination: maybe they took a lot longer, or they arrived too close to another celestial body. Maybe they made it just fine but blew out the Hyperspace Interlink Module and they're not leaving the system until they get a new one.

The sky's the limit here - I wouldn't let one blown die roll shut your story down! I know everyone keeps hammering home this point but rules don't mean diddley if you & your players aren't having fun, so there's no harm in interpreting results however you see fit to continue the story - and the fun. I've found more enjoyment from answering "Yes, but.." than "No."

I'd have to go back and look at the book to find the details, but one thing that impressed me about Beyond the Rim were the ways they interpret the Astrogation rules, specifically the places where a failed roll just complicates things, rather than meaning you "fail" at reaching your destination.

I'm sure there are places where it describes how a successful roll means you get to your destination quickly and easily, but a failed roll means you encounter complications, such as dropping out of hyperspace, being ambushed, running into your rivals in a space battle, etc.

I feel like it's too easy to interpret even a 'failed' roll with a straight-up black-and-white success-or-fail dichotomy that I appreciated the flexibility in how you interpret the roll.

I think everyone has the correct idea in that a Failure on the roll still gets you into Hyperspace, just with a very negative consequence like arriving in the wrong system, or somewhere unexpected. The module does mention arriving in an asteroid field as a result of rolling a Despair, I think that's on the same level of totally failling the roll in this case...since if you running this more as a one shot deal like I am you DO want the players to eventually get to the next destination.

Funny, we just played this today, and the player got a failure with 2 advantages. I figured they were off course, and now they were outside the Outer Rim and beyond known star charts. The 2 advantages meant they could try astrogation again at a normal (average) difficulty to find their position relative to the end of the Perlemian Trade Route. If that succeeded, they could make another roll at the original difficulty (which I had set as Daunting, but over the course of investigation on the Wheel they had gained a couple of boost dice). This was a success (with Triumph) and they entered the Cholgana system with only minimal impact from the nebula.

Keep in mind, by RAW, the clock is ticking (depending on how you run the adventure). So what I had planned to do if the second Astrogation failed is, instead of making them roll Astrogation after Astrogation, let them arrive, but much later, and in a more dubious position (deeper in the nebula, more space debris, etc). As a general rule, failure doesn't necessarily mean the inability to complete the task, but instead that the task took longer or was done less than optimally.

My group is the type that wants failure to be failure. They're OK with the idea that a botched Astrogation check may take them out of an adventure. They're also insistent that I as the GM will have something else interesting ready to roll within minutes. Im this case, it helps that I've run SWRPGs for over two decades.

I know there are many interesting (and some less interesting) ways to interpret failure. What surprises me is that an adventure that spells all the other possible results out in such detail, and in other places does an excellent job of describing the different choices you can make s a GM and what their consequences are, completely neglect to mention this rather obvious case. It's almost as if FFG doesn't consider it possible to fail an Astrogation roll.

But with all the extra difficulty and choices and lots of skill rolls that can provide bonuses to this Astrogation check, it's bizarre that they left out one of the most obvious, interesting and dramatic results. Both in the adventure, and in the basic rulebook. Not a word.

I just don't understand how they managed to overlook this. I'm still flabbergasted.

mcv, which pages are you referring to?

Again, I'd have to go back and check but I really thought it was spelled out pretty clearly that failing the Astrogation rolls means your journey is longer and more hazardous, while succeeding the roll means it's quick and smooth.

Page 39 of Beyond the Rim explains the two different routes, their difficulty, and how to mitigate the difficulty. Option 1 takes 48 + 24 hours, option 2 takes 55 hours (with a class 1 hyperdrive, so it's probably double that with an un-modded ship).

Each threat adds 4 hours.

On the first leg of option 1, 2 threats means that the second leg is harder, despair means they end up in an asteroid field and take 5 system strain, and must succeed on a hard piloting check to get out of the asteroid field.

On the second leg or option 2, 2 threats means 5 strain and sensors damaged; hard mechanics check needed to fix them. Despair gets them too close to the atmosphere and a hard piloting check to avoid damage.

That's it, actually. I thought it also discussed the effects of Advantage results, but it doesn't. I love the detail, and it's a great source of inspiration on how to handle astrogation in general, but it doesn't mention failure at all as far as I can tell.

The rolebook does, but is more vague. Page 104:

Success means you get there without incident. More successes can mean either faster travel time, or faster calculation.

Advantage usually reduces travel time, but can also be used to find attractive places to stop, refuel, etc. Triumph means greatly reduced travel time, super fast calculation, or a totally new route.

Threat decreases accuracy or increases travel time, or missing relevant details. Despair similar but worse, or something really awful like exiting in front of an asteroid.

Nothing about failure.

Page 246-247, "Interstellar Travel", discusses difficulty and factors influencing it, but no dice results.

Is there some place I missed?

Hate to necro an old thread, but did anyone come up with anything for his? I'm reading through the adventure at the moment and, upon reading p39, had the exact same reaction as mcv did way back when. If anyone has any thoughts on this it would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks in advance.

Think of it this way, the success is that you made it within so many hours (in order to beat the Yiyar clan there). So this check is actually a time/clock check or race. Therefore failing the astrogation check results in failure to beat the Yiyar clan to the destination. You still made it, just not in time. You failed, but the book covers what to do if the Yiyar clan beat you there.

I am currently taking notes to GM this module.

Hate to necro an old thread, but did anyone come up with anything for his? I'm reading through the adventure at the moment and, upon reading p39, had the exact same reaction as mcv did way back when. If anyone has any thoughts on this it would be greatly appreciated.

Looks to me like there are several good answers, what specifically are you looking for?

Since the rules don't cover failing an astrogation check, I deal with astrogation checks in two ways, depending on if they are in structured time or not.

In structured time, when the party is trying to calculate a hyperspace route during combat or a chase or whatnot, I have a base number of rounds to run astrogation calculations. They put info into the navicomputer, and hit go. The player then rolls the astrogation check. Time for the calculation to complete is equal to 6 rounds - net successes. I chose 6 rounds as an arbitrary number that fit my test models. Advantages, threats, triumphs and despair can be spent using the core book, Beyond the Rim and Fly Casual as guidelines. Failure results in 6 rounds of navicomputer calculations. If the party chooses to disable safety overrides and jump to hyperspace early, I treat the roll as if it had an extra despair for each round they shorted the calculations by. Note: this type of astrogation check is generally a quick jump, something quick and easy designed to get the ship away from what is going on, and to a safer place to do a lengthy astrogation calculation to get where they actually want to go. Note: the time to complete the calculations doesn't require anyone to keep performing an action each round; one action, then the timer starts.

In unstructured play, failure doubles the base travel time. Everything else is based off advantage, threat, triumph and despair.

In the end, I'm not sure success or failure really matters all that much in Beyond The Rim. Kind of a shame, since boosting your die pool is a significant (and cool) part of the action in the first part, which I thought was a brilliant idea. But ultimately, the roll is bloody hard to make, and Yiyar is probably going to fail it too. Meanwhile, the Empire, which is supposed to show up late, has a much faster ship and is going to get there first no matter what you do.

And while the adventure has some notes about what to do if the Yiyars get there first, it's really written on the assumption that the players get there first.

So while it's important and exciting for the players to believe that roll matters, I don't think it really does. You're going to fudge and improvise everything on Cholganna anyway. Do it the way that works best for you and the dynamics of the game, and that's something the roll isn't going to have a lot of impact on. But make that roll exciting anyway. Astrogation deserves some love. In most games, it's by far the most boring skill there is, and FFG tried to make it cool, and that's a worthy effort. It just doesn't really work out very well in this particular case. But the idea is sound. I'm probably going to expand on this principle in my own adventures.

I'd have to review BTR, but my rule of thumb for something like this is to always allow the party to "fail forward". So instead of not making the jump, they either jump to the wrong system nearby and have a short encounter as the price for failure (With another, easier check to jump again) or they do jump to the system but they come out too close/too far from the planet and have to avoid crashing/spend a long time approaching at sublight.

If anyone has any thoughts on this it would be greatly appreciated.

Easy - an asteroid hulls the ship, have everyone make Very Difficult survival rolls to get into space suits, anyone who fails that roll dies within seconds. Problem solved.

I wouldn't call for a roll if it's unstructured time, the PCs aren't under any particular pressure, and they're following known routes and the like. When they're under attack or otherwise have to make it happen NOW, when they've got damaged equipment (hyperdrive, navcomputer, etc), or are trying to travel off of known routes and/or through known hazards, THEN it's worth a roll.

I'd have to review BTR, but my rule of thumb for something like this is to always allow the party to "fail forward". So instead of not making the jump, they either jump to the wrong system nearby and have a short encounter as the price for failure (With another, easier check to jump again)

This is absolutely what I'd do in a more sandboxy campaign, but when there's a specific adventure to run, like Beyond The Rim, then ending up in the wrong system is likely to derail the adventure too much.

Of course you could also expand the scope of BTR and turn it into a much bigger campaign, but that's not what I'm doing right now.

Since the rules don't cover failing an astrogation check, I deal with astrogation checks in two ways, depending on if they are in structured time or not.

In structured time, when the party is trying to calculate a hyperspace route during combat or a chase or whatnot, I have a base number of rounds to run astrogation calculations. They put info into the navicomputer, and hit go. The player then rolls the astrogation check. Time for the calculation to complete is equal to 6 rounds - net successes. I chose 6 rounds as an arbitrary number that fit my test models. Advantages, threats, triumphs and despair can be spent using the core book, Beyond the Rim and Fly Casual as guidelines. Failure results in 6 rounds of navicomputer calculations. If the party chooses to disable safety overrides and jump to hyperspace early, I treat the roll as if it had an extra despair for each round they shorted the calculations by. Note: this type of astrogation check is generally a quick jump, something quick and easy designed to get the ship away from what is going on, and to a safer place to do a lengthy astrogation calculation to get where they actually want to go. Note: the time to complete the calculations doesn't require anyone to keep performing an action each round; one action, then the timer starts.

In unstructured play, failure doubles the base travel time. Everything else is based off advantage, threat, triumph and despair.

Interesting...I like the idea of having a structured play house rule for astrogation...thanks.

In the end, I'm not sure success or failure really matters all that much in Beyond The Rim. Kind of a shame, since boosting your die pool is a significant (and cool) part of the action in the first part, which I thought was a brilliant idea. But ultimately, the roll is bloody hard to make, and Yiyar is probably going to fail it too. Meanwhile, the Empire, which is supposed to show up late, has a much faster ship and is going to get there first no matter what you do.

And while the adventure has some notes about what to do if the Yiyars get there first, it's really written on the assumption that the players get there first.

So while it's important and exciting for the players to believe that roll matters, I don't think it really does. You're going to fudge and improvise everything on Cholganna anyway. Do it the way that works best for you and the dynamics of the game, and that's something the roll isn't going to have a lot of impact on. But make that roll exciting anyway. Astrogation deserves some love. In most games, it's by far the most boring skill there is, and FFG tried to make it cool, and that's a worthy effort. It just doesn't really work out very well in this particular case. But the idea is sound. I'm probably going to expand on this principle in my own adventures.

That's a shame, but yeah, I get it. Thanks.

A failure that's actually a failure, really. I completely get "failing forward", but I also don't want failure to be just a less good success. If you fail to shoot someone, you don't hit them for half damage; if you fail a Perception check, you don't half-notice something; if you fail a Charm check, the NPC isn't half-charmed. Essentially, I guess, I'd like to be able to bring Astrogation in line with this.

An astrogation failure does not necessarily mean failing forward. Lets say that you want to navigate from Disneyland to the MGM Grand in Vegas. A successful roll means that you drive I-15 across Cali and Nevada in four hours . An unsuccessful roll means that your navigator had maps from 1946 and thought that Route 66 was the best way to get there - and it takes 8 hours .

A failed astrogation could mean that they drive all the way to Vegas in first gear, using WAY more gas than necessary, killing any profit for that cargo run.

A failed astrogation could mean that they arrive ahead of when they were suppose to - which could suck if they were part of a coordinated group and the target is no long surprised when the others get there.

A failure that's actually a failure, really.

To build on Desslok's post, this isn't really problem with Astrogation or the module so much as it is a problem of storytelling. Astrogation is different from the other skills you mentioned because you can do wildly different things with the results, and none of them have "null" effects. Missing in combat is a null effect. Failing a Perception roll is a null effect. But failing Astrogation is wide open and you have to decide how much a diversion you want to accommodate.

In mathematical terms*, combat or perception have results ranging from 0..n; whereas Astrogation has results ranging from -n..0..n

You could have them accidentally invert Galactic north and south. They come out of hyperspace into this amazingly busy system, discover a new city-planet teeming with sentients, some new unreached culture in Wild Space! And then the Imperials hail them with a "Welcome to Coruscant, what is your destination and cargo...". If your adventure can handle that kind of diversion and you feel that is a suitable penalty for failing Astrogation, then go for it.

But if you want the story to stay roughly on track, then you would need to apply some other kind of penalty...arriving late, or in a debris field, can be a sufficient penalty, especially if they start racking up hull damage or suffer impact criticals. Yes, the results only seems tangentially related to Astrogation, but the alternative is derailment.

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* I'm sure a real mathematician would cringe

I think it's also a question of framing what the success condition is. If there are zero (satisfying) options for failure, then you probably shouldn't roll with a chance to fail. Instead, reframe the check to hit a target which allows for failure. In this instance, a success shouldn't be, "arrive in the cholganna system" but should be "arrive at cholganna, the planet." when looked at in this light, arriving in system but not the planet is a true failure and not just failing forward.

Depending on how much failure was in the roll, they might need to fly the 12 hours to get to cholganna at sublight speed, or face another very high difficulty astrogation check b/c of the nebula and it being a microjump. This is assuming you even let on that they're in the correct system, just the wrong place.

OK thanks guys, this is really helpful!

Sounds like you might need to remind them of the worst case scenario;

"Traveling through hyperspace isn't like dusting crops, boy! Without precise calculations we could fly right through a star or bounce too close to a supernova and that'd end your trip real quick, wouldn't it?"

In short the narrative nature of the game means failure isn't always the "worst case scenario" but rather a scenario other than the intended one.