Now this is very late in the day to be suggesting this, not only from a DH2e perspective but from a WH40KRPG in total perspective...

But why isn't there a unified 40k system? Huge swathes of problems would simply vanish if there was a core ruleset with what effectively amount to campaign settings as additions. It would save time and money. The time saved is pretty straight forward, no re-writing the same thing, proof reading identically named talents for minute inter-game differences and money would be saved by both published AND player. FFG saves money by not having to pump out huge corebooks for each game which reiterate again (with minute irritating differences) the same mechanics and 'how i rp' bits. The player saves money by not having to buy enormous corebooks for each system.

I really can't help but feel WoTC and (to an extent) TSR got it right. You create a framework system and then add campaign settings to it. It stops utterly pointless problems cropping up such as having 9 different genestealer stats spread across 3 systems. THREE SYSTEMS! The same critter is statted, restatted and statted again! 6 times in DW alone! (if you include broodlords) This is utterly ridiculous. There's no other way to put it. It's a farce.

Now you have an opportunity to effectively reinvent the whole system starting from the point of origin, Dark Heresy. Make DH your Forgotten Realms! Make it the default setting for the system. Then you can add an Only War book which details fighting as IG and their campaigns, a Rogue Trader book and all that goes with it, etc etc.

It also allows you to, in the case of ever present enemies such as Orks/Chaos/etc, release books simply about them that can be used across the spectrum without tedius alterations and checking back and forth between systems. It also means you can REALLY go to town for each of the books in a similar fashion to Slaves to Darkness in ye olde days. Though to be honest, I'd rather have single massive beastiaries ala Monster Manuals. Such separate book organization is a godsend and means I don't lose access to monster/NPC stats if a player wants to look something up!

Another benefit is that you can divorce location and game type. EG release sector/expanse books. By all means continue giving a basic location the basic ruleset, but if you were to create books for RT/OW/DW/BC without a setting and then create sectors/expanses/horrific warp phenomena as additional addons, the players and GM can pick a setting they like then busy themselves in the one area or move about between nearby locales.

Yet another awesome benefit is the ability to create playable xeno books without creating another **** line for them. Want to play as Ork Freebooters or Craftworld Eldar? Great! Pick up the Waaaagh! Da Orks! book or The Eldar of the Stars book. These would contain all you'd need to run a game as these. In effect, their own campaign setting in the same fashion as OW or DW, but without the mindless repetition of basic rules (with insufferable minor tweaks ofc), weapons (how many astartes bolter stats now?) and NPCs (see Genestealers)

All in all, the current method of different setting = different game simply does not work . It is a truly awful concept! A far more successful, workable and (dare I say it) enjoyable game could be achieved far easier, for far less expense by everyone and in far more depth by the writers.

PS. I may not have adequately described by notion here as I tend to write as I think which can be...disorganized. Apologies for any confusion.

EDIT: Forgot to mention that while there is no real good time to do such an earth shattering alteration, sooner is always better and less painful than later! Use this opportunity of re-writing the original system to make it all the better through a unified system!

So, basically, your question is why are Dark Heresy, Only War, Deathwatch, etc. all different core rulebooks with roughly the same mechanics instead of one big core rulebook titled "Warhammer 40k RPG" with a variety of supplements for each aspect of the game?

My guess is because they've been gradually releasing each game, and as they've been doing so acquiring fans for each game. Not only would rewriting the entirety of 40k rpgs into a different set of books take a fair bit of effort, but fans could become quite upset that their favourite game is being merged into the rest. Black Templar fans in the tabletop recently had their army merged back into Codex: Space Marines, and there was a fair bit of angst on the forums about it.

This.

I have said that a few times as well, along with some others here, and I think that a unified system is the perfect way to go.

But nothing is lost, no details, no particulars. Every group gets its day. It's simply a far better way of organizing the various aspects of the game so that they work far better with each other and with far less mindless repetition and far fewer clashes.

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Thanks Svstrauser, it's something I've been pondering for sometime and figured now was as good a time as any. Frankly, I'm astonished it wasn't done some time ago. The time to do it would have been when FFG got the 40k license and not after five separate systems had been built.

EDIT: Broke the quotey bits

Durandal,

My bad, I was not clear. The "this" I mentioned was referring to your post, not to the answer posted by Prince Raven

When I think unified game system, I think GURPS, not (A)D&D, but indeed a unified system would've been my choice here.

It's what I've wanted since RT was first announced, let alone came out.

When I think unified game system, I think GURPS, not (A)D&D, but indeed a unified system would've been my choice here.

It's what I've wanted since RT was first announced, let alone came out.

I use DnD simply because it sprang to mind first, but GURPS would probably fit the bill better. The point remains the same however. The mind boggles how it didn't happen.

I think the commonly accepted theory is that RT was already a Core when FFG took over, and when FFG saw that Cores sell more copies, at a higher price point, with no more (perhaps even less) original content than other sourcebooks, they felt obliged to continue that way of doing things.

Of course it's to the detriment of every player who has bought into more than one game line, which I'm guessing probably is a slight majority of us. But FFG is going to do whatever makes them the most money, and it's kind of hard to blame them for that. It is, after all, what they exist to do. Their RPG products - as much as they may be labours of love by some of the best professionals around - can never be more than a means to that end.

To be fair, they'd easily be able to sell just as much material under a unified system. White Wolf manage it.

So we have Warhammer 40,000 roleplay core rulebook.

This rulebook brings with it a general spread of rules, armoury, skills, talents and psychic powers. Games Master and background section too. Have the Dark Heresy range of PC options, complete with options for Arbite Adepts and Assassin Psyker. One of the things I like about the Beta. Also include some adversaries.

Then bring on the supplements:

Imperial Guard

Imperial Navy (include Rogue Traders)

Space Marines (wait for it)

Witch Hunters (include Battle Sisters)

Alien Hunters (include Deathwatch)

Daemon Hunters (include Grey Knights)

Mark of Chaos (includes human renegades, Chaos Marines and Traitor Legions)

Mark of Khorne

Mark of Slaanesh

Mark of Nurgle

Mark of Tzeentch

Mark of Xenos (this covers the broad range of possibile alien beasties who don't have a Codex)

The Great Devourer (include Genestealer Cults)

The Green Tide (Orks)

The Rising Dynasties (Necrons)

The Ancients (Eldar)

The Evil Ancients (Dark Eldar)

The Young Empire (Tau, including Kroot and Vespids)

That's 1 rulebook and 18 supplements. Space Marines, Mark of Chaos and each of "The" alien supplements will include rules for their space ships. All supplements will include all relevent armouries, psychic powers, skills, talents, vehicles and anything else that they might need.

I'm loving this idea!

Not bad, though I suspect that BC showed that certain supplements don't sell well enough for this.

So some of these supplements would likely have to share covers or never see the light of day.

Not bad, though I suspect that BC showed that certain supplements don't sell well enough for this.

So some of these supplements would likely have to share covers or never see the light of day.

Or we could just have some big fat supplement books:

Armies of the Imperium (everything from Ordos of the Inquisition to Space Marines)

Enemies Within (renegades, mutants and such)

Enemies Without (Aliens)

Enemies Beyond (Chaos Daemons)

But I think people would prefer supplements dealing with one specific type of enemy. I for one would like to see ALL Tyranids, Genestealers and Genestealer Cults in one book. I'm hoping Only War will have a Tyranid supplement which contains everything which will be in the Codex. Don't want three or more books for one race.

I'm also hoping a Rogue Trader supplement will one day have Hive Fleet Bio-Ship rules.

I think at least Rogue Trader could easily be integrated with 1 Dark Heresy supplement (including spacecraft, Xenos, new roles & stuff)

Lots of awesome bits

In general I'm in complete agreement! I love the breakdown and was actually considering doing one whilst I had a pint (or three) at the pub!

A few alterations though:

I could make the Imperial Navy book the Rogue Trader book with IN as an inclusion rather than the other way around. I feel the change in focus is important given that Rogue Traders are sufficiently different from IN Line Captains but have enough in common that it's the RT's that add bits rather than the IN, who lack bits.

I would also argue that the Genestealer cult book and Tyranic books should be the same.

I'd argue against the big fat splat books as they would invariably lose focus, I could be wrong but that's how I feel. Particularly with the Chaos books, they would certainly benefit from four books, an undivided chaos in general book (plus minor gods) and one book per major deity. It just seems to make sense. One book per alien 'empire' seems appropriate too with a further book for misc gribblies and sub-empires. (sector specific nasties could be in their own sector/specific books).

Re: Astartes, there is an arguement for giving them a truly vast tome. It could be filled with the information for running SM campaigns with a variety of chapters/successors/whatevers and seems to make more sense than doing a Space Wolves book or Black Templars book.

Not bad, though I suspect that BC showed that certain supplements don't sell well enough for this.

So some of these supplements would likely have to share covers or never see the light of day.

I imagine the reason for this is that BC is so divorced from the rest of the 40k line that there's comparatively little interest in it. I picked it up, Corebook and GM kit included, but never ran it because the group wasn't interested. I've just picked up the three god specific books (thus far) because DH2e uses the BC/OW system. Were there to be a unified system, there is no doubt that such books would sell well as they have uses in virtually every campaign imaginable.

The "problem" is that FFG seems set on building their rules to support a very specific theme and atmosphere of the game. You can also watch this modus operandi in action beyond 40k when looking at the different Star Wars core games.

Yes, every one of the 40k Core Rulebooks uses the same basic d100 mechanic, but even aside from the natural "evolution" in the rules from one game to another, the games also tend to feature various special mechanics crafted entirely and uniquely for that one game - be it the Demeanours and Squad Modes in Deathwatch, or the Comrades in Only War, or the space travel/combat bits in Rogue Trader, to name just a few examples off the top of my head. The games also follow a specific "power level", which becomes ever more evident once you see that the same enemies and the same guns have different profiles all depending on the game they are showing up in.

I actually perceive this to be partially the fault of how Toughness Bonus has wreaked havoc with the resilience of characters once you pass a certain threshold, though - or how Unnatural Strength turned rocks thrown by Space Marines into a more dangerous weapon than the first version of a Marine bolter in Dark Heresy. So imho, a unified system aiming to gather everything under a common umbrella would necessitate reworking the Unnatural Traits and their effects on the characters, so as to not break this compatibility again.

Could it be done? Absolutely. I'd love a Core Rulebook that gives us, say, ten of the most common character types - from the Guard Veteran to the Inquisitor to the Space Marine - whilst leaving additional character options from the various organisations for supplements that would go into further detail.

But I just don't see the interest from the studio. And, for what it's worth, there are at least some players who seem to prefer this "thematic-focused" approach to a more general, uniform one.

Not bad, though I suspect that BC showed that certain supplements don't sell well enough for this.

So some of these supplements would likely have to share covers or never see the light of day.

I imagine the reason for this is that BC is so divorced from the rest of the 40k line that there's comparatively little interest in it. I picked it up, Corebook and GM kit included, but never ran it because the group wasn't interested. I've just picked up the three god specific books (thus far) because DH2e uses the BC/OW system. Were there to be a unified system, there is no doubt that such books would sell well as they have uses in virtually every campaign imaginable.

I picked up Black Crusade for "when Acolytes/Rogue Traders/Deathwatch/Guard turn bad" but with a strong interest in alien hunting I don't see much point in it.

P.S. I agree with your alterations to my previous post.

Not bad, though I suspect that BC showed that certain supplements don't sell well enough for this.

So some of these supplements would likely have to share covers or never see the light of day.

I imagine the reason for this is that BC is so divorced from the rest of the 40k line that there's comparatively little interest in it. I picked it up, Corebook and GM kit included, but never ran it because the group wasn't interested. I've just picked up the three god specific books (thus far) because DH2e uses the BC/OW system. Were there to be a unified system, there is no doubt that such books would sell well as they have uses in virtually every campaign imaginable.

I picked up Black Crusade for "when Acolytes/Rogue Traders/Deathwatch/Guard turn bad" but with a strong interest in alien hunting I don't see much point in it.

P.S. I agree with your alterations to my previous post.

I picked it up for largely the same reasons!

Plus I also agree with my alterations

Two groups you missed out:

Cult of the Omnissiah (Adeptus Mechanicus)

Scholastia Psykana (Advanced Psykers/Astropaths and other Imperial Psykers)

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I do feel very strongly that this would be nothing but a benefit to the line as a whole, there is simply no downside to this, for players or for publisher. They can publish the same number of books and we will buy them! And what's more, the books will do a better job!

Plus I also agree with my alterations

Two groups you missed out:

Cult of the Omnissiah (Adeptus Mechanicus)

Scholastia Psykana (Advanced Psykers/Astropaths and other Imperial Psykers)

--

I do feel very strongly that this would be nothing but a benefit to the line as a whole, there is simply no downside to this, for players or for publisher. They can publish the same number of books and we will buy them! And what's more, the books will do a better job!

Cult of the Omnissiah could include... hold back maniacle laugh ...Titans. You could run Titan warfare much like Rogue Trader ship combat.

Scholastica Psykana is a good idea. Because there's no end of psychic power ideas.

Not sure it's needed but the Navigator Households might benefit from a supplement too.

Plus I also agree with my alterations

Two groups you missed out:

Cult of the Omnissiah (Adeptus Mechanicus)

Scholastia Psykana (Advanced Psykers/Astropaths and other Imperial Psykers)

--

I do feel very strongly that this would be nothing but a benefit to the line as a whole, there is simply no downside to this, for players or for publisher. They can publish the same number of books and we will buy them! And what's more, the books will do a better job!

Cult of the Omnissiah could include... hold back maniacle laugh ...Titans. You could run Titan warfare much like Rogue Trader ship combat.

Scholastica Psykana is a good idea. Because there's no end of psychic power ideas.

Not sure it's needed but the Navigator Households might benefit from a supplement too.

It's earie but I was thinking the same thing about Cult of the Omnissiah! Titans aren't that divorced from spaceships in scale so it all works out and can be included (potentially) in the massed combat rules.

Eye of the Warp (Navigators) is probably a good idea and then you're just as well having:

Lords and Masters (Imperial Nobility) for far more politcally oriented games and large inter-house factional warfare

RT's main claim to fame is that it's essentially a 40k "Star trek". All the spacey type things are included therein and that's what makes it great! I don't think it fits as a Dark heresy supplement any more than OW did. That being said, I think we are seeing the beginnings of a unified system using the "Only war" Ruleset. Whether they rewrite corebooks or not is a management decision for FFG to make. I can easily see Most rogue trader classes being Elite advances (Especially when you remember that an Inquisitor is an Elite advance!). As well, If the IG warrior represents your typical conscript guardsman, how hard would it be to believe that at 2000 pts they could Elite advance into one of the "Guardman" careers in OW? Or for that matter; When your CP hits 100 you basically go to BC right?

I hope FFG will read this topic and take notes. I'm really excited now!

I put out a pretty lengthy post earlier about the d100 core mechanic being very bad at scaling, particularly when it has to deal with the simultaneous existence of characters with vastly different power levels.

To sum it up, here are the basic assumptions of d100 and the 40k version of it.

You only roll when a task is narratively interesting.

The basic system for rolling compares your roll against your character's intrinsic ability.

Modifiers to the roll include external reality, such as the objective difficulty of a task, which is looked at as external to the character.

The system is based on the idea that an average person will succeed at a narratively interesting task 1/3 of the time.

When attempting to include characters of vastly different levels, you are forced to violate 1 or more of these core assumptions. For the space marine doing battle against a guardsman, you have an issue of the narrative value of the SM and his number value. You also have the issue of objective difficulty. The objectiveness of a task is determined relative to an average human being. Therefore, a task that should be simple for a space marine suddenly becomes just as difficult as it would be for a human. In order to compensate, the space marines stats must be raised up to very high values, or given some type of narrative ability. At the point at which the narrative ability kicks in, you suddenly have this high level character that is breaking the rules of the game and is no longer useable within the normal framework of the rules of rolling when something is interesting. The objective determinants of difficulty are based on human standards, and the 1-100 stats are also based on human standards. Your peak human is going to reach a level of 65 in a characteristic at best, meaning the system can't even account for characters with twice the ability of the best human. The unnatural characteristics are a poor substitute and can only work through narrative weight that works outside of the framework of the core system.

In other words, d100 is based around human experience, and is thus a poor choice for modeling a setting filled with aliens and super powered human beings.

Space Marines are not magically better at everything , though. Their bonuses in regards to resilience and physical strength do not require Unnatural Traits for representation.

As I already mentioned in the thread about the d100 mechanic, all a unified system would need is "rescaling" the various characters and creatures, and narrowing the gaps between them. If you have a system where 1 is the lowest and 100 the maximum, it's just bad design to let one type of character occupy about a third of the scale, when the setting comes with creatures who need a bit of "distance" to said characters.

Or, in other words, I don't think the designers actually considered the full range of characters and creatures when defining the human position in the d100 scale.

A very basic explanation of my proposed solution:

- have baseline humans start at about ~30 on the d100 scale

- lower baseline human characteristic advancements to +3 instead of +5, with a maximum of five advancements

- have Space Marine Toughness and Strength start at about 50 on the d100 scale to represent the implants

- lower Astartes characteristic advancements to +2 instead of +5, with a maximum of five advancements

- in this model, human characteristics thus cap out at 45, whilst SM can reach 60 for Strength or Toughness

Yes, this still means Space Marines have a vastly superior chance at succeeding at tests that would be more challenging for normal characters. I consider this intentional, because they are stronger, and it ought to show. If you need to make the game more interesting, introduce "strength" challenges that would be nigh impossible for normal humans, but possible for SM.

Like .. y'know, it would actually work in a story?

The issue with that kind of scaling is that you end up with the failing 2/3 of the time for the average person when they do anything interesting. That tends to be pretty boring in a system which has little to no framework for making failure very interesting, particularly in combat.

EDIT: In other words, the core mechanic of the d100 resolution system is at odds with the game itself and the narrative due to both the very high chance of failure and the very swingy dice system.