I think the problem is we are getting this from the wrong angle. To understand reinforceme (mayby I should say the Influence system) we need to understand the behind the senes stuff and we don't yet.

Thanks for assuming we're just too stupid to see the wisdom in your opinion, and for ignoring the issues raised in the previous posts.

A group of low to mid level acolytes getting help from an Imperial Assassin should be a **** big deal, same for the rest, if you are in a campaign where a Death Watch kill team is needed, then simply do what my GM did last time, have them roll up the Marines, and then they play them in that interlude where they are needed, then once it is done, they go away and out come the acolytes again.

And wouldn't it be nice if the system would actually support such improvisation?

There was no assumption of stupidity, simple in the context here was unambiguous, easy to not get took off into tangents, simple to either say, well I like that idea, or no I do not like that idea.

However if you wish to see it as me saying you are simple, there is not much I can do other than say, again, that was not at all what simple meant here.

Sure they can add basic troops to the table, then the other crew will start up with "table bloat." and we do not need that it is pointless, you can never ever win.

I for one think the proposed system is fine as it stands, for what it is supposedly representing.

Edited to add :

And the system does support it already, I have never ever played DH yet where my GM failed to offer necessary support from Arbites, or seconded IG troopers. It is basic GM skills ..."hmm my party of players is not going to be able to do this alone." "I'll put in place x,y and z and see which they go for."

Just so we are absolutely clear here,

The Inquisition has at certain levels of power, to play the politics, horse trading, power brokering game, with other institutions that are equally as powerful in different ways to the Inquisition itself.

Yes on paper they can command anyone, what shape or form that help actually arrives in is totally dependent upon that Inquisitors standing with which ever institution he/she is demanding aid from.

This current idea is one mechanical way of implementing that system into this RPG.

No Inquisitor has to horse trade or play politics for the services of Arbites, or IG troopers, they ask and they get, that is the ups and downs of it, that is not how it works with the Adeptus Astartes, or the Adeptus Mechanicus or the Ecclesiarchy or the Assassin Temples, all of which are monolithic super powerful institutions in the WH40K universe, so it pays to play nice with them, because Pis**** them off is a bad, bad idea.

So the more influence you have with said organistation which you earn by doing things that benefit them, is a quid pro quo, it is reciprocal, you earn the right to call on them.

So no, we do not need basic dogs body troopers involving in this system, because no one needs to curry favour with them, they are insignificant as far as the real power blocks of the Imperium are concerned, and thus why would an Inquisitor be doing favours for a captain in the Imperial guard just so he can borrow a couple of squads of troops that will be either executed, or mindwiped when he/she is done with them.

Sure discuss as much as you want cost values for each of the special unit types on offer, but do not try and justify the inclusion of throw away troops, just for the sake of completeness.

I can see where you're coming from from a fluff point of view, sure. It's a fairly valid interpretation of how the Inquisition works. Here's my issue though; it's a ******* boring one for gameplay. "The GM should just give you this" isn't remotely interesting or engaging.

Regarding Radwraith's comments on the math being wonky, this isn't a first. FFG have a habit of implementing systems and then having their examples break all the rules the systems set out. Look at Hammer of the Emperor's regiments.

I can see where you're coming from from a fluff point of view, sure. It's a fairly valid interpretation of how the Inquisition works. Here's my issue though; it's a ******* boring one for gameplay. "The GM should just give you this" isn't remotely interesting or engaging.

Regarding Radwraith's comments on the math being wonky, this isn't a first. FFG have a habit of implementing systems and then having their examples break all the rules the systems set out. Look at Hammer of the Emperor's regiments.

But I didn't say they should get everything, I said they should struggle to get access to powerful entity's, not troops who are less effective than the acolytes themselves, and that is what this proposed system allows, no?

Basic rank and file dog soldiers are ten a penny in the 40K universe and are treated as such, same for Arbites who are just police who deal with criminals who flout imperial law rather than planetary law, glorified coppers, again nothing special.

Sure, a super experienced squad of Kasrkin elites decked out in full carapace, with spoor targeters, and hotshot weaponry, should probably be added to the reinforcement listings, because they are rare enough to fit in and powerful enough that they wont be viewed as disposable to an Inquisitor.

If the mission calls for basic troop assistance, I fail to see how that is boring by allowing it, the mission/campaign either needs it, or it doesn't, boring or exciting do not come into it.

Reinforcements however are something special, outside the remit of standard play, it is the players making a judgement call,and hoping it pays off, because they can't do it over if they made a bad call, or it turns out they didn't actually need that Temple Assassin after all, but that favour has been called in, oh well! better luck next time.

Recruiting reinforcements is often one of a few ways to solve a situation. I don't see why treating them as a resource you have to acquire like anything else is too unreasonable.

Special units ? The weird thing to me is that a lot of these forces actually do operate as units, yet here you are apparently supposed to request them individually.

That aside, personally I wouldn't consider Arbites, Storm Troopers or Navy assets "always available" - but this, too, is a matter of interpretation. Either way, would it not be better to support their recruitment with a mechanic when you already have a system in place to do exactly this? What's to prevent the Acolytes from always keeping their own personal frigate loaded with companies of Storm Troopers in orbit, ready to drop on a moment's notice, just because they can? Yes, that's a far-fetched example, but where would you draw the line?

The Reinforcement system actually agrees with you Lynata. There are guidelines within for purchasing basically, any reinforcement unit. Thus a Squad of Stormtroopers Should have a required influence of 30 to call and a cost of 15 influence to deploy (3 apiece). This explains why they would be one of the first options to player reinforcment. This works ok for small scale incursions but fails to note what would happen if a player playing an Actual Inquisitor wanted to say, declare Exterminatus or even start a crusade to retake a world. How would that work? It's certainly within the Inquisitors purview! This is my only problem with the reinforcement system as it exists now. It seems Mathmatically wrong. Also: If I request the aid of say, The Canoness of a SoB convent, does she bring to bear all the resources at her disposal? (The whole convent!) If not why would you ask the Canoness at all? What would her likely response be after all? "Inquisitor Yorkel is demanding that we purge a nest of Hertics from underhive level 4c-L226. I'll just go handle it myself!" Really? I don't think so! More likely her response would be more like: "Sister Revara; You will take 3 squads of battlesisters and support the arbites in cordoning of the area. I will take two squads of Seraphim and three more squads of battle sisters and be will purge L226 with flame to the ground!" (Hope the Acolytes aren't there at the time! )

Rad,

Thanks a lot for the clarification!

I think the final rulebook should include a bit of GM guidance on including lower-level reinforcements such as Stormtroopers or Arbites. Novice GMs do not necessarily understand when it is and isn't appropriate to include such troops, and as far as I could tell the rules don't give many examples. Sometimes it would be appropriate to hold back a low-level party of Acolytes and send in the Stormtroopers to clear a dangerous cult fortress, while on other occasions the Acolytes would join forces with an Arbitrator detachment to overthrow a corrupt planetary governor.

Including stat blocks and effective power levels for these lower-powered reinforcement characters would also help. This will help the GM design encounters appropriate for the much-stronger-than-usual party without creating custom statistics for the squad of reinforcements.

I think the final rulebook should include a bit of GM guidance on including lower-level reinforcements such as Stormtroopers or Arbites. Novice GMs do not necessarily understand when it is and isn't appropriate to include such troops, and as far as I could tell the rules don't give many examples. Sometimes it would be appropriate to hold back a low-level party of Acolytes and send in the Stormtroopers to clear a dangerous cult fortress, while on other occasions the Acolytes would join forces with an Arbitrator detachment to overthrow a corrupt planetary governor.

Including stat blocks and effective power levels for these lower-powered reinforcement characters would also help. This will help the GM design encounters appropriate for the much-stronger-than-usual party without creating custom statistics for the squad of reinforcements.

Agreed! Or at least Clarification. If the reinforcment rules allow you to call in a relevant leader type and they bring in underlings it would be an important point of note. For Squad level arbites or guardsmen the formation rules from EOI would work well I think. If the players deploy anything larger than a platoon though, I think the game changes into an only war campaign.

I think the final rulebook should include a bit of GM guidance on including lower-level reinforcements such as Stormtroopers or Arbites. Novice GMs do not necessarily understand when it is and isn't appropriate to include such troops, and as far as I could tell the rules don't give many examples. Sometimes it would be appropriate to hold back a low-level party of Acolytes and send in the Stormtroopers to clear a dangerous cult fortress, while on other occasions the Acolytes would join forces with an Arbitrator detachment to overthrow a corrupt planetary governor.

Including stat blocks and effective power levels for these lower-powered reinforcement characters would also help. This will help the GM design encounters appropriate for the much-stronger-than-usual party without creating custom statistics for the squad of reinforcements.

I agree with this completely! There should definitely be some clarification on how summoning groups to help out with your issues works. After all, my current party is just three acolytes, none of whom are particularly combat focused. It's insane to expect them to singlehandedly storm a cult stronghold.