I've heard some rumblings about this topic lately. Where do you feel the WFRP3 "Social Influence/Duel of Wits/Shame" Mechanic needs clarification?

jh

The thing about Duel of Wits is its scope. It's not a catchall social conflict mechanic; it is specifically used in situations where you are disgracing an opponent in front of an audience. While that's great, it limits the situations it could be used in.

It would have been nice to have a more robust social conflict system with a greater scope.

Personally, I only use the "influence" mechanic requiring 1 - 4 successful attempts (noble rank increases resistance to influence in most cases. Duel of wits takes too long from when we've tried it so any "shame" is also interchangeable with "influence."

I also allow it ot be used during combat. Steely gaze is a perfect example.

jh

I also use "Influence the target" as "Inflict 1 Shame" at my table for normal social encounters (not just the specific outlined "duel of wits" situations), and let people use Social actions during combat. It's still never mattered enough to actually take a PC out of a fight with Shame. It just doesn't come up that much, and the actions that can do it aren't very powerful.

The biggest problem I have with the Shame and Influence mechanics as written is that there's no scaling and no way to improve your output. I think there's only one action that says "Influence the target a second time" on the triple-hammer result line. Shame Thresholds are so low, I don't really feel comfortable giving out extra Influence/Shame for a bunch of hammer or comets. The equivalent would be if all melee attacks did exactly 1 damage, and all non-noble characters could take exactly Toughness hits before passing out, regardless of armor. Kinda lame.

In my 40k-using-EotE-and-WFRP-mechanics campaign, I've had some luck using much higher Shame Thresholds and inflicting 1 shame per success on the roll. Wouldn't work with the existing WFRP actions, though.

Hmm... maybe some new Social Action cards are in order?

The thing about Duel of Wits is its scope. It's not a catchall social conflict mechanic; it is specifically used in situations where you are disgracing an opponent in front of an audience. While that's great, it limits the situations it could be used in.

It would have been nice to have a more robust social conflict system with a greater scope.

Actually, it doesn't have to be. It can easily be used in 1v1 or 1v many situations. It is simply a means to portray social 'combat' for characters who are concerned about such things. For example, you can also use the mechanic in a competitive test of intimidation, with "shame" being a level of "Fear". Etc.

While the easiest situation to use it is as a Duel of Wits in front of peers, it isn't the only way to use the mechanics.

I like that idea to transfer it as a Fear effect. That's a simple mechanic.

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Here is the actual rule quote. I see that it encourages "intimidate, guile and

social action cards." I would simply use any non-physical skill that applies

(charm, guile, leadership, education, piety, intimidate (fel), and even

intuition or disicipline). Requiring multiple opposed checks can go a lot

further than trying to do the "back and forth" checks of an actual encounter.

In most cases, a "best 3 out of 5" is probably the best approach. You'd then

have to "win" 3:5 arguments. A comet or chaos star during each check

could have interesting asides and simple "bonus/penalty white/black" dice

for 2+ boons/banes is a simple solution as well.

Duell der Geister

The duel of wits- LoP p.35

"
When two courtiers meet on the field of “battle”, they may have
more options than simply pursuing their objective. Verbal sparring
has a long and worthy tradition, not just in the Empire but far
beyond. Men and women can become renowned for their vicious
words, just as a swordsman may gain fame for the strength of his
sword arm.

Duels of wits are an optional rules addition for Warhammer Fantasy
Roleplay, lending some mechanical support to the often cruel and
insulting wordplay that can surround any intrigue. A duel of wits
may be added in to an existing social encounter, providing multiple
paths to victory or viable strategies within the context of running
that encounter. Alternately, two or more characters may engage in a
near-literal “duel”, exchanging verbal barbs for the sole purpose of
being cruel to one another. However, without the context of a social
encounter to give their duel context, there’s little purpose to slung
abuse. At a bare minimum, the presence of an audience is required
so that someone can be impressed at the victory.

In essence, during a duel of wits, characters may “attack” one
another with Social actions and Guile and Intimidate checks in an
eff ort to “deal damage” to a character’s self-esteem or public reputation,
in the form of shame.

Shame behaves rather like wounds, and is represented by dealing
insanity cards facedown to the victim. Shame can take many
forms – a hot fl ush of humiliation spreading across one’s cheeks,
that momentary confusion when things don’t work out the way
a character had envisioned, the slow spread of mocking laughter
through the crowd. Whatever form it takes, shame is as much an
involuntary response as suff ering a wound in a combat encounter,
and suff ering too much shame can incapacitate a character as surely
as being KO’d.

SOCIAL ATTACKS
A successful social attack requires just as much skill and deftness as
a wounding blow in battle. A simple insult will not do – most characters
are well able to shrug off the petty jeers of rivals, and have
been well-practiced in this art since childhood. No, a true social attack
must be aimed at a weak spot in the character or at a weakness
in his public perception.

Does a character have a secret that he is ashamed of? A casual off -
hand reference to his youthful indiscretion – the merest whisper of
a possibility of blackmail – can be more vicious than a knife in the
right hands. Has a character’s heart been broken? Parading his
former paramour on one’s arm – this is the path to victory. Does
a character have an exotic accent? Mocking it publicly, before the
very people he must impress, can cripple him socially for weeks.
Gifted social duellists identify a character’s weakness and exploit it,
ruthlessly.

Mechanically, a social attack can take the form of an application of
Perform a Stunt or another action card that fi ts the situation. In
general, such attacks would utilize Guile or Intimidate as the goal
is to discomfi t or fl uster the target, not to improve his disposition.
These checks will presumably be opposed by the target’s Discipline,
but might also be opposed by his Charm or Leadership if the
attack takes the form of an appeal to the crowd. If the check results
in the target being Infl uenced, then the active character can choose
to express that infl uence as infl icting a single point of shame on the
target.

SHAME THRESHOLD
A character has a shame threshold that indicates how much shame
he can endure before he must withdraw. This threshold is equal to a
character’s Willpower score plus his Noble Rank. When a character
has more shame than his shame threshold, he must withdraw from
the encounter.

WITHDRAWAL
When a character suff ers too much shame, he is forced to withdraw
from the social encounter. This may or may not involve actually
leaving the scene (probably in a huff ), but in any case that character
has been “defeated” in the eyes of those present (potentially including
himself) and no longer has the necessary composure to advance
his agenda or stake his claim. Withdrawal scenes may be punctuated
by hysterics, apoplectic fi ts of rage, moments of tongue-tied
stuttering, or whatever other loss of composure is appropriate to
the characters and the scene.

CONSEQUENCES OF WITHDRAWAL
A character who withdraws from a social encounter forfeits his
stake in the encounter – he can no longer advance his agenda or
take direct action towards the principle characters. He also can’t
respond in kind to his enemies, attempting to attack them socially.
Depending on circumstances, he may still be able to observe and
off er assistance to his compatriots, if they are still engaged in the
encounter. He may also be able to approach peripheral characters,
such as advisors to the principal characters in the scene, and attempt
to Influence them.

It is possible for a character to withdraw from an encounter and his
faction to still achieve their goals. However, being publicly defeated
in a duel of wits is normally damaging to one’s agenda. The extent
of damage such a defeat deals to a character’s cause is dependent
on the nature of the social encounter and the circumstances surrounding
the withdrawal, but can range from something as mild
as a misfortune die Δ on the next check to as major as a progress
tracker moving in an unfavourable direction.

Mercifully, once a character withdraws he is no longer a suitable
target for future social attacks until the end of the encounter.
If a character’s continued presence in a scene is key to one or more
characters completing their objectives, then that character’s withdrawal
can scupper those objectives completely. For example, if
both sides are petitioning a Duke for lucrative trading rights, but
the Duke is forced to withdraw, then the encounter will end with
the matter unresolved (perhaps a good thing for the team currently
losing the encounter). Alternately, an assistant or ally to the character
can step forward to resolve matters in the withdrawn character’s
stead, allowing the scene to continue with a new (and presumably
less able) principal character.

RECOVERING SHAME
Shame is, fortunately, not permanent. The passage of time and a
change of scene is all that is necessary to eliminate the sting of ridicule
and humiliation. At the end of a social encounter, a character
recovers shame equal to his Willpower. Any remaining shame will
dissipate over a good night’s rest or comparable period of recovery.

SHAME AND INSANITY
Shame is represented as face-down insanity cards, in the same way
that wounds are represented by face-down critical wound cards.
Insanity cards that are face-up for whatever reason also count as
shame – anyone who has a reputation for madness will fi nd himself
forced to withdraw from social encounters quite easily!

In the unlikely event that a character has permanent insanities in
excess of his shame threshold but has not been reduced to madness
and eliminated as a player character, the first point of shame
suffered is sufficient to force him to withdraw from an encounter –
such characters are tightly-wound indeed!"

..