[backs away slowly]

[backs away slowly]

No need, I'll leave it as it stands.

I shouldn't have started it I agree, but I don't think this behaviour is normal "welcome to the internet"-behaviour.

I will not go into it any further.

Just to offer my perspective:

I'm not a forum-y person. I joined this community because FFG's system is new to me, and I knew that there would be some resources to draw from as I strove to wrap my head around it.

I am a long time RPGer. My group took a break (not willingly, we all just had stuff to do) from tabletopping for a few years, and when my current FLGS opened in my comparatively small town, I used it as an excuse to get the team back together. Of course while we were away, 3E became 4E (we had previously played all other editions almost continuously).

Realizing the complexity of the system and it's reliance on computers, I got a subscription to D&DI and went to the forums there to poke around. WOW. Never has there been a more treacherous hive of scum and villainy!

Generally speaking, there was plenty of useful info there. However, I found myself sifting through so much bile and vitriol to get to it, that I finally gave up! It was stressing me out! Now I know why GN wrote Edition Wars! Holy.

Anyways, I came here. Everyone is so nice and supportive. The debate is for the most part clean and intelligent, and shows a genuine affection for the system and the IP it is representing.

Nobody is going to like EVERYTHING about a given system, and not everybody is going to agree on its mechanics and implementation. Debating the viewpoints and pros/cons is fine, but let's continue to be clean and intelligent. Just because it's the internet, doesn't mean we HAVE to speak like 9 year olds on XBL.

This is not an attack, nor am I trying to keep this etiquette debate going. I just like the community. Also, reference James Dean in Rebel Without a Cause..."You're tearing me apart!"

XOXO, my .02

So as I stated before the 40/400 thing bugged me because it you can't get to the Signature Abilities with only 40 points expended anyway. So here's the minimum Talent cost for each Spec:

                     Fringer  Scout  Trader  Arch   BGH   Driver
Sudden Discovery       120     100    100     110   140    100
Unmatched Mobility     185     150    150     150   165    150

So my minimum of 100 XP holds, but only in 3 cases. So I ask again, how do these point expenditures equate to a novice?

So as I stated before the 40/400 thing bugged me because it you can't get to the Signature Abilities with only 40 points expended anyway. So here's the minimum Talent cost for each Spec:

                     Fringer  Scout  Trader  Arch   BGH   Driver
Sudden Discovery       120     100    100     110   140    100
Unmatched Mobility     185     150    150     150   165    150

So my minimum of 100 XP holds, but only in 3 cases. So I ask again, how do these point expenditures equate to a novice?

I was wondering this myself... If you would play all the way through Beyond the Rim for instance and you would literally get all bonusses, realize all goals, etc. you would barely be able to affort it and then only for the guys being able to garner 100pts.

That depends on what you define as a novice. I have a group of PCs with 280 earned XP. Most have spent all of it, the rest have spent at least 250 earned XP. I no longer consider them novices, but they are certainly not yet masters of their fields (and outside of the focus areas, they are truly novices). IMHO, 100 XP in this game is not a tremendous amount.

I was wondering this myself... If you would play all the way through Beyond the Rim for instance and you would literally get all bonusses, realize all goals, etc. you would barely be able to affort it and then only for the guys being able to garner 100pts.

And keep in mind that those numbers are just to get you in position to but the Signature Ability. You still need the 30 XP to purchase the SA.

That depends on what you define as a novice. I have a group of PCs with 280 earned XP. Most have spent all of it, the rest have spent at least 250 earned XP. I no longer consider them novices, but they are certainly not yet masters of their fields (and outside of the focus areas, they are truly novices). IMHO, 100 XP in this game is not a tremendous amount.

I don't expect 100XP to be experts in their field by any means, but they're not wet behind the ears either. Being able to purchase an SA takes at least as much more XP earned in play as the standard character "starts life" with through growing up.

So as I stated before the 40/400 thing bugged me because it you can't get to the Signature Abilities with only 40 points expended anyway. So here's the minimum Talent cost for each Spec:

                     Fringer  Scout  Trader  Arch   BGH   Driver
Sudden Discovery       120     100    100     110   140    100
Unmatched Mobility     185     150    150     150   165    150

So my minimum of 100 XP holds, but only in 3 cases. So I ask again, how do these point expenditures equate to a novice?

The only reason I might consider them novice-ish is because they spent every single point allotted to them in a mad rush to the top, ignoring all skills and other talents that would make them a well rounded character. If this play style makes you happy - well, it's your game and do what makes you happy, but it seems **** silly to play that way instead to me.

I GM for a party of 5.

Only 2 of them actually bought into the talents when receiving their first 25xp.

So as I stated before the 40/400 thing bugged me because it you can't get to the Signature Abilities with only 40 points expended anyway. So here's the minimum Talent cost for each Spec:

                     Fringer  Scout  Trader  Arch   BGH   Driver
Sudden Discovery       120     100    100     110   140    100
Unmatched Mobility     185     150    150     150   165    150

So my minimum of 100 XP holds, but only in 3 cases. So I ask again, how do these point expenditures equate to a novice?

The only reason I might consider them novice-ish is because they spent every single point allotted to them in a mad rush to the top, ignoring all skills and other talents that would make them a well rounded character. If this play style makes you happy - well, it's your game and do what makes you happy, but it seems **** silly to play that way instead to me.

At an expected 20 XP per session that is about 5 sessions in assuming you spent very little on the tree at character creation (because as we all know buying stats is your best use of starting points).

Of course, that just highlights that at the start of the game the person was a complete novice at their profession and a week later they're top of the game with a capstone ability from XP earned. Meanwhile their droid companion who unlocked the same specialization at character creation and put 100 points into the tree because they'd used those skills for decades before the game started is unable to take the capstone. Ever.

See, there's your problem - if you can get from being a Brand New Character to the top tier of the Talent Tree in just one week, the GM is handing out WAY too much experience per session (That or you are playing every single day). Either way, that's not a flaw of the game engine, but all about tuning the GM and of expectations.

No they're still new even if they beeline for the signature ability. It isn't a capstone ability that one reaches after years of playing. It is an ability to help define the explorer career, and other careers as they get theirs. So if someone wants to spend xp to get it faster, it is no different than another player beelining for Force Rating talent to bump up their Force Rating to a 2. Does that suddenly mean he isn't relatively new? No. All it means is that he has a little more ability. XP expenditure means nothing here. Just because someone who is an explorer can gain this ability if they shoott for it out of the gate doesn't mean that a bounty hunter spending XP in explorer specs shoild gain access to them because he has spent more XP in those specs. GMs can always rule differently if they so choose butvthis is hardly bad game design.

Am I the only person a bit disappointed that they didn't cover more of the "Exploration" in the Explorer guide? Suggestions on planet building, system ideas, that sort of thing.

Don't get me wrong, it is a good class book and a good equipment guide. I just had the impression that we would get more of a exploration generation system, or maybe an in-depth discussion on environmental hazards and how to deal with them. In short, a bit of a Wilderness Guide for EotE.

Oh, and I am really starting to hate the lack of captions or identifying pictures of space ships and vehicles. I really shouldn't have to look up wookieepedia to know what a ship looks like that happens to be in a RPG sourcebook. That should be easily apparent to anyone reading.

Of course, that just highlights that at the start of the game the person was a complete novice at their profession and a week later they're top of the game with a capstone ability from XP earned. Meanwhile their droid companion who unlocked the same specialization at character creation and put 100 points into the tree because they'd used those skills for decades before the game started is unable to take the capstone. Ever.

If the droid was going to dump that many points into a second specialization tree, why did they not pick it as his/her career?

Even though they have the capstone/signature ability, I am not sure that it means they are "top of the game." You have to spend much more XP to get it to be "fully" effective. And without the accompanying skills, they really wouldn't be "top." They might have a signature ability, but it might not be all that useful. Does it matter if you are getting all those extra maneuvers if you are rolling 2 green dice? Whereas someone who spent their XP getting skills might have 2 green dice AND 2 yellow dice.

Let's take the force sensitive exile as an example. Even though they don't have a "signature ability," the signature abilities seem comparable to the "force powers." As a force sensitive exile, I have the "sense" ability. After 1 time of playing and realizing that half the time I am not even going to be able to sense anything, I realized that I needed to up my dice pool if I wanted to "use" the force actively (I could have had the passive benefits from the sense tree, but I want to be a force "user," not just "in-tune" with the force). This means that I am going to go (almost) straight for the +1 to force rating talent so that I can actually use the force abilities. By the time I get my second force die, it is likely that many of my companions will have much higher skill levels than me, and just as many talents (since they are cheaper at the bottom of the tree where they will most likely pick from to help develop their character). Just because I got to the bottom of the tree, doesn't mean that I am "on top" of being a force user. It just means that I have a lot of "experience" in doing force related things.

The same would be true of someone investing lots of points in their career's specialization talent tree. It doesn't mean that they are the best, just specialized. The "top" people would not only have 100 XP spent in talents, but also 100 XP spent in the skills associated with that career/specialization since that is theoretically what you will be using to make your dice pools most often (if you GM makes situations based on your character types).

From a statistical point of view of dice pools, adding a blue die (which is the typical type of die bonus from a talent-either remove a black or add a blue) adds 0.67 advantages and 0.33 successes per roll . Removing a black die adds 0.33 successes and 0.33 advantages per roll. Adding a green die (which one possible bonus for upgrading a skill) adds 0.625 successes and 0.625 advantages per roll . Upgrading a green die to a yellow die (another possibility of increasing a skill) increases successes and advantages by 0.208, and gives 0.125 triumphs per roll. Adding a green die is better than adding a blue die which is better than removing a black die (+green>+blue>-black). Whether or not upgrading a die is better depends on how you "value" triumphs, since triumphs are only possible through yellow dice.

I suppose it is theoretically possible then for a PC to obtain a signature ability after one session's play, if they put all their experience points into that one goal. I think such a character will be a self-limiting problem. Stats forever at base level, poor skills, etc.

I don't see signature abilities or anything else on the talent trees as being tied to time in the class. They are knacks and abilities that the character has, including some special aptitudes. They could come from experience or be innate.

As for crying "no fair" that no matter how many points you spend in a non-career talent tree you will never get the signature ability, is it fair that Wookiees will never get Trandoshan regeneration?

As for crying "no fair" that no matter how many points you spend in a non-career talent tree you will never get the signature ability, is it fair that Wookiees will never get Trandoshan regeneration?

What's more interesting (for me) from this discussion is that there's a difference between your starting career and ones the character picked up later. I guess I have to go back and read that section again, that my Politico will always be Politico at heart, regardless of how many Fringer and Traders and Hired Guns I bolt onto her.

The signature abilities make your choice of colonist is more relevant now.

Could anyone with access to the book please elaborate a little on what the Sudden Discovery ability does? I'm curious to see what else FFG came up with.

Here's what it says:

Once per session, spend 2 Destiny Points to make a hard Know: Outer Rim or Know: Core Worlds check. Success means the character can pinpoint their exact location without a map, discover lost or hidden items (or locations) or identify a safe path through terrain. Subject, of course, to GM whim.

And the upgrades add blue die, remove black die, reduce the difficulty by one or let the ability to be used twice in one session. Oh, and one of the upgrades allows the skill to be used with Astrogation or Survival instead of Rim or Core worlds.

Could anyone with access to the book please elaborate a little on what the Sudden Discovery ability does? I'm curious to see what else FFG came up with.

Here's what it says:

Once per session, spend 2 Destiny Points to make a hard Know: Outer Rim or Know: Core Worlds check. Success means the character can pinpoint their exact location without a map, discover lost or hidden items (or locations) or identify a safe path through terrain. Subject, of course, to GM whim.

And the upgrades add blue die, remove black die, reduce the difficulty by one or let the ability to be used twice in one session. Oh, and one of the upgrades allows the skill to be used with Astrogation or Survival instead of Rim or Core worlds.

There's also a sidebar about GM/Player participation to abate fears of skipping major plot. The sidebar also gives the obvious, but necessary caveat that the GM has final say.

Some of the signature abilities are going to be more narratively driven, as per the sidebar, and players taking them will need to be aware of this as will GMs.

That depends on what you define as a novice. I have a group of PCs with 280 earned XP. Most have spent all of it, the rest have spent at least 250 earned XP. I no longer consider them novices, but they are certainly not yet masters of their fields (and outside of the focus areas, they are truly novices). IMHO, 100 XP in this game is not a tremendous amount.

From the stress tests I did during the EotE Beta, I'd second this notion.

Even 200 awarded XP really isn't as much as it seems, putting the test PCs at what felt to be around 5th level in terms of competency and "neat tricks" they had available when compared to Saga Edition.

100 XP is "scratching the surface" in terms of what a PC can do, even if they make a beeline for Dedication or the Row 5 talents needed to unlock a signature ability. Which of course means that they haven't been raising their skills, which might also come back to bite them in the hindquarters as the other PCs might have been a bit more diverse in spending their awarded XP, increasing notable/key skills and picking talents that play well to their concept or role in the party.

Of course, that just highlights that at the start of the game the person was a complete novice at their profession and a week later they're top of the game with a capstone ability from XP earned. Meanwhile their droid companion who unlocked the same specialization at character creation and put 100 points into the tree because they'd used those skills for decades before the game started is unable to take the capstone. Ever.

See, there's your problem - if you can get from being a Brand New Character to the top tier of the Talent Tree in just one week, the GM is handing out WAY too much experience per session (That or you are playing every single day). Either way, that's not a flaw of the game engine, but all about tuning the GM and of expectations.

The week refers to game time. Real world time would be 5 sessions, as you get about 20 XP per session RAW.

Of course, that just highlights that at the start of the game the person was a complete novice at their profession and a week later they're top of the game with a capstone ability from XP earned. Meanwhile their droid companion who unlocked the same specialization at character creation and put 100 points into the tree because they'd used those skills for decades before the game started is unable to take the capstone. Ever.

See, there's your problem - if you can get from being a Brand New Character to the top tier of the Talent Tree in just one week, the GM is handing out WAY too much experience per session (That or you are playing every single day). Either way, that's not a flaw of the game engine, but all about tuning the GM and of expectations.

The week refers to game time. Real world time would be 5 sessions, as you get about 20 XP per session RAW.

Really depends on how much the party accomplishes, the rules recommend 10-20, but it could technically be as low as 5 with only a minor encounter and no bonus XP from things like motivation.

I on average give out 15, including bonus XP, which seems kind of on the low side the more I think about it.

Edit: This is supposed to be a sort of extreme example, by the way. I hope there's no one out there only getting 5XP a session. Thinking about it makes my heart hurt.

If the droid was going to dump that many points into a second specialization tree, why did they not pick it as his/her career?

There are lots of reasons, not the least of which would be someone who is playing a protocol droid and thought the most suitable career would be politico even if most of their experience after manufacture was being dragged around the galaxy by a wookie a smuggler and a kid and felt they were doing more exploring than diplomacy.