A similar problem was broached back when the AoR released and when the AoR Core releases. What if a new career better emulates the concept I have for a character. Well a couple of things can happen. You can scrap and start a new character using the new career. Or you can rebuild your current. Character using the new career. Both basically the same. Same thing with these new signature abilities. If you built a colonist/scholar but think your concept would be better suited by the explorer/archeologists then rebuild or redo.

Yes. If the total points expenditure is the same rebuilding the character should not change game balance.

I have a long standing house rule that any player may rebuild their character after the first session of play to fix things that don't fit the concept or errors in character creation that stem from not understanding how the mechanics will work in play. I don't believe anyone should be stuck playing a character they don't like.

Also, when did the idea take hold that the rules as written are unchangable? I blame Gygax in 1st Edition AD&D. I think it was the DMG where he said "if you change or alter any of these rules and do not use all of them you are not playing AD&D". Nuts to that! I say "Never let the rules get in the way of a fun game!"

If you think the game would be better if characters could change careers, or have multiple careers at once, or only certain species can be in certain careers, then make it so. It is your game now.

I won't come to your house and tell you the way you play is wrong and stupid.

Do people really read through all the rules options and totally map out their character progression from creation to retirement before they start play? Do they stick with this plan? Is a Signature Ability really that big a deal in terms of character concept and design that it will overshadow every other consideration in character development and dare I say it role play?

I read through all the rules and options and mapped out what I think will be my progression after playing for a little while. Part of it was from wanting to be a Force-user and be somewhat effective. With only 1 die, it is not all that exciting. More often than not, my abilities fail. I really didn't see my career as being that big of a deal since I wanted my character basically to abandon her career to pursue a more Jedi-like character/mindset of helping to protect the weak and ensure justice throughout the galaxy and what-not.

I think it is good game design to make the choice of career a meaningful choice. As it is in the core book career choice has very little impact once characters get a few experience points under their belts. After all every character has access to every specialization tree...

I agree that the choice of career should be a meaningful choice, but I don't think it should be something that you are "locked" into, either. Since every character has access to every specialization tree, why not give every character access to every signature ability if they meet the talent pre-requesites? However, limit players to 1 signature ability instead of however many there are per career. Is it really a "signature" ability if you have multiple "signature" abilities?

I realize that this is something that can be house-ruled, but to me the more options you have in an RPG, the better as it gives you more freedom to RP within the rules; and the following post also gave a good idea while I was typing out my response:

A similar problem was broached back when the AoR released and when the AoR Core releases. What if a new career better emulates the concept I have for a character. Well a couple of things can happen. You can scrap and start a new character using the new career. Or you can rebuild your current. Character using the new career. Both basically the same. Same thing with these new signature abilities. If you built a colonist/scholar but think your concept would be better suited by the explorer/archeologists then rebuild or redo.

My issue with that is the fact that you have already played out some of the game with your original character. I feel like that would be cheating. Though I like the idea!

I agree. "stupid, dumb, ridiculous, horrible" and "the magnitude of the designer's mistake" really don't advance the discussion.

"I don't like it and think it should have been done this way instead..." Is much better.

I agree with the second point, but as for the first I feel like people should have the ability to voice their opinion. You can't make people be polite/nice. I find that people (especially teenagers-I teach high school kids not saying Union is a teenager) in general feel like the anonymity of the internet grants them license to be less polite/nice. It saddens me.

So it saddens you, but there needs to be room for it anyway?

You played out your character with the best information you had at the time. And along comes better information which allows you to envision your concept in a better light. An you're going to begrudge that? Seems like a waste of energy. The game is going to be ever evolving. Better to evolve with it.

I'm fine with Signature Abilities being tied to careers. It's much like the dedication bonus in WFRP that you're rewarded for completing a career. This will be a non-issue for my table. Role Playing vs. Roll Playing I guess. I don't know. I'm offering respecs and rerolls when AoR hits and again when FaD is released but if any of my players come to me unhappy with their character I'll always keep an open mind. I want them at my table having fun, not drooling and obsessing over every +1 they trip across as splats get released. That's what Pathfinder is for

What kinds of talents are there for Big Game Hunters? I keep reading about how BH's might like to cross specialize into it so I'm curious if the talents support the statement.

Anybody have any info?

What kinds of talents are there for Big Game Hunters? I keep reading about how BH's might like to cross specialize into it so I'm curious if the talents support the statement.

Anybody have any info?

Its a cross of outdoorsman/sneaking talents, and a few high tier things for combat. Some stuff that might upgrade attacks/increase damage. Its certainly useful for anyone looking at playing a sniper type.

What kinds of talents are there for Big Game Hunters? I keep reading about how BH's might like to cross specialize into it so I'm curious if the talents support the statement.

Anybody have any info?

Its a cross of outdoorsman/sneaking talents, and a few high tier things for combat. Some stuff that might upgrade attacks/increase damage. Its certainly useful for anyone looking at playing a sniper type.

Like True Aim or Deadly Accuracy? The write up mentioned BH wanting it but they already get Stalker and Deadly Accuracy so I was at a loss why someone would X specialize other than maybe True Aim or Barrage or something.

You played out your character with the best information you had at the time. And along comes better information which allows you to envision your concept in a better light. An you're going to begrudge that? Seems like a waste of energy. The game is going to be ever evolving. Better to evolve with it.

I did say that I liked it. Ultimately, however, it would be up to the GM I would imagine (which I am not).

Dremaa, thank you for demonstrating how to disagree while still being civil. You make some good points.

I agree with questioning why to tie Signature Abilities to character careers when all specialization trees are available to every character. The division into four primary "careers" seems a bit artificial in the way it is implemented.

While I like seeing career choice made more important if it is going to be part of the game, I wonder why it needs to be part of the game to begin with.

Why not just pick "X" skills as primary skills and the rest are secondary, and do likewise for talent trees?

There are twelve careers at this point. If F&D follows suit it will have six new careers. At that point we will have 18 careers. We've already seen se crossover with the same specs showing up in more than one career. I would imagine that we could see duplication of some signature abilities in other careers too. We could also see universal signature abilities too at some point down the road.

Like True Aim or Deadly Accuracy? The write up mentioned BH wanting it but they already get Stalker and Deadly Accuracy so I was at a loss why someone would X specialize other than maybe True Aim or Barrage or something.

It's actually two new talents for the BGH. One increases damage such that it effectively negates a targets soak, and the other upgrades the attacks made under certain conditions.

ultimately, if you aren't happy with a rule, house rule it. allow it. you have the power. no one is going to turn you into the rpg police for changing that ONE aspect of the game. the rules are made to be broken, changed, and re-worked to your liking. it's the system that we love to use, the rules can be changed.

Like True Aim or Deadly Accuracy? The write up mentioned BH wanting it but they already get Stalker and Deadly Accuracy so I was at a loss why someone would X specialize other than maybe True Aim or Barrage or something.

It's actually two new talents for the BGH. One increases damage such that it effectively negates a targets soak, and the other upgrades the attacks made under certain conditions.

Thank you sir. Id imagine MM should get me my copy here shortly.

In regards to the good system/bad system good rule/bad rule back an forth, there is no rule that trumps a GM's decisions and no source material better than one with a good imagination, creativity and love for the genre. I would never let some sourcebook ruin players good time or let an unreasonable player get in the way of the limits needed to insert challenge into the game.

I'm really happy with a) specific powers for a given career, so that choice of career actually means something now, and

b) non Force users now having access to as cool set of powers to spend XP on.

Can't wait for it to hit the UK!

You played out your character with the best information you had at the time. And along comes better information which allows you to envision your concept in a better light. An you're going to begrudge that? Seems like a waste of energy. The game is going to be ever evolving. Better to evolve with it.

Well, at least with this system, you're not completely hosed when new material comes out. Say way too much poo-storming when a new Saga Edition book came out and folks threw hissy-fits over how such-and-such new feat/talent/Force power would have been great to have way back when they first created the character.

Sadly, as long as an RPG is in print and producing new content, this sort of thing is going to happen. So I guess as a player one has to decide if they've got enough material to play the game, or if they want to wait until the "right" material gets released. Of course, the big problem with the second approach (waiting for the "right" material) is that by the time you get around to finally playing your "dream character," other folks have been enjoying the game for months, if not years.

You played out your character with the best information you had at the time. And along comes better information which allows you to envision your concept in a better light. An you're going to begrudge that? Seems like a waste of energy. The game is going to be ever evolving. Better to evolve with it.

Well, at least with this system, you're not completely hosed when new material comes out. Say way too much poo-storming when a new Saga Edition book came out and folks threw hissy-fits over how such-and-such new feat/talent/Force power would have been great to have way back when they first created the character.

Sadly, as long as an RPG is in print and producing new content, this sort of thing is going to happen. So I guess as a player one has to decide if they've got enough material to play the game, or if they want to wait until the "right" material gets released. Of course, the big problem with the second approach (waiting for the "right" material) is that by the time you get around to finally playing your "dream character," other folks have been enjoying the game for months, if not years.

Or just, you know, keep the XP spent and rebuild from the ground up when a new option appears that better fits the character. Just don't abuse it.

You worked at McDonalds in high school, sorry, you can't become a good doctor, your signature ability will always be the patty flip.

It is a remarkably stupid mechanic. As I pointed out. Someone with 400 points in explorer can't take it but someone with 40 can. Stupid. Add on top that you can't switch careers, Luke will ALWAYS be a moisture farmer, he can NEVER be a top Jedi, sorry kid, you didn't go t the Jedi Academy when you were young.

So your Burger Flipper cant pick the Explorer Signature Abilities. Big deal. However when FFG puts out the Counter Monkey Sourcebook, they'll be able to pick from the Burger Flipper Signature Abilities (or the Hired Gun will get Fast Draw and Look Good In Duster Signature Abilities from THEIR sourcebook).

I fail to see what the issue is here.

Agreed, I fail to see the issue here as well.

This scenario is no different then when playing D&D and the new classes/material comes out. Donovan hit it on the head as well with the Saga example. Deal with it. If you didn't pick the explorer class, stuff will come out eventually for your class as well. If you don't like it, house rule, reroll, or start over.

I also agree with the poster that said if you are the guy that spent 400 points in a career you didn't pick, he'd wonder why. I would too. So I don't see that as an issue either.

Finally, on the subtopic that is floating around about using "stupid", "dumb", "horrible", etc. Those actually do belong in adult conversation, just maybe not how they are used in context. However, I find there are some people who are far to oversensitive on the internet about stuff like this. Get over it. They're words. This is the internet. Welcome.

Get over it. They're words. This is the internet. Welcome.

My, aren't you clever!

I especially liked your "welcome"! It was so witty.

This whole "this is the internet"-attitude is precisely the problem, if you ask me.

These boards have been (with the exclusion of 1 or 2 people) a very welcome experience in how people can come together and discuss their hobby in a civil way. I have seen other communities fall apart quite rapidly because of disrespectful behaviour and attitudes such as the one shown by the poster I addressed (and you for some reason feel the need to help out). Heck try having an edgy discussion on rpg.net nowadays and you can pretty much count on seeing a post in red within the next 5 posts.

That would not have been the case of some people didn't f$%^ up those boards to begin with.

I enjoy crude humor and a sharp tongue just as much as the next guy, heck I've been on the internet since forever (welcome by the way!) However, I did find that in this case it would have been very easy to avoid being so obnoxious and not use such childish terms to critize both the system as well as the people that did enjoy the inclusion of said rule. In that way a more constructive way of discussing it would have been fun instead of an annoyance.

Also, how is you telling me what not to write and to get over it any different from me telling him his language and way of discussing things are disrespectful? It isn't really, is it?

I don't question spending lots of XP in a Specialization outside of one's starting career. Luke very likely spent a great many XP in Pilot and/or Squad Leader, possibly more than he did in Fringer. In the long run, he ends up spending way more on Jedi specialization(s) than on anything else.

The current rules say that he can only take Signature Abilities from Explorer (assuming he started as Fringer) despite the direction away from it that his life has taken.

I don't question spending lots of XP in a Specialization outside of one's starting career. Luke very likely spent a great many XP in Pilot and/or Squad Leader, possibly more than he did in Fringer. In the long run, he ends up spending way more on Jedi specialization(s) than on anything else.

The current rules say that he can only take Signature Abilities from Explorer (assuming he started as Fringer) despite the direction away from it that his life has taken.

But isn't that what the game is about? I'd figure that if you would play Luke you'd start by having him by a force sensitive pilot, the rest of his background mostly just being fluff.

Get over it. They're words. This is the internet. Welcome.

My, aren't you clever!

I especially liked your "welcome"! It was so witty.

This whole "this is the internet"-attitude is precisely the problem, if you ask me.

These boards have been (with the exclusion of 1 or 2 people) a very welcome experience in how people can come together and discuss their hobby in a civil way. I have seen other communities fall apart quite rapidly because of disrespectful behaviour and attitudes such as the one shown by the poster I addressed (and you for some reason feel the need to help out). Heck try having an edgy discussion on rpg.net nowadays and you can pretty much count on seeing a post in red within the next 5 posts.

That would not have been the case of some people didn't f$%^ up those boards to begin with.

I enjoy crude humor and a sharp tongue just as much as the next guy, heck I've been on the internet since forever (welcome by the way!) However, I did find that in this case it would have been very easy to avoid being so obnoxious and not use such childish terms to critize both the system as well as the people that did enjoy the inclusion of said rule. In that way a more constructive way of discussing it would have been fun instead of an annoyance.

Also, how is you telling me what not to write and to get over it any different from me telling him his language and way of discussing things are disrespectful? It isn't really, is it?

Stop and think if we would have even got on this tangent if you hadn't have been overly sensitive about it in the first place.

No one else had any reason to complain, we all just let it wash. Sometimes people's anger and frustration about stuff boils over into their text replies. Being emotional in their responses isn't just normal, it's human. Calling people out about their choice of words isn't the answer. As stated earlier, you could have taken this to PM. It had nothing to do with the topic, and you just slammed it out there thinking you were witty and somehow taking the high road.

I'm not defending him at all. I'm not defending anyone. I'm simply pointing out had you not said anything about it, at all, this wouldn't even be being discussed in this thread.

Get over it. They're words. This is the internet. Welcome.

My, aren't you clever!

I especially liked your "welcome"! It was so witty.

This whole "this is the internet"-attitude is precisely the problem, if you ask me.

These boards have been (with the exclusion of 1 or 2 people) a very welcome experience in how people can come together and discuss their hobby in a civil way. I have seen other communities fall apart quite rapidly because of disrespectful behaviour and attitudes such as the one shown by the poster I addressed (and you for some reason feel the need to help out). Heck try having an edgy discussion on rpg.net nowadays and you can pretty much count on seeing a post in red within the next 5 posts.

That would not have been the case of some people didn't f$%^ up those boards to begin with.

I enjoy crude humor and a sharp tongue just as much as the next guy, heck I've been on the internet since forever (welcome by the way!) However, I did find that in this case it would have been very easy to avoid being so obnoxious and not use such childish terms to critize both the system as well as the people that did enjoy the inclusion of said rule. In that way a more constructive way of discussing it would have been fun instead of an annoyance.

Also, how is you telling me what not to write and to get over it any different from me telling him his language and way of discussing things are disrespectful? It isn't really, is it?

Stop and think if we would have even got on this tangent if you hadn't have been overly sensitive about it in the first place.

No one else had any reason to complain, we all just let it wash. Sometimes people's anger and frustration about stuff boils over into their text replies. Being emotional in their responses isn't just normal, it's human. Calling people out about their choice of words isn't the answer. As stated earlier, you could have taken this to PM. It had nothing to do with the topic, and you just slammed it out there thinking you were witty and somehow taking the high road.

I'm not defending him at all. I'm not defending anyone. I'm simply pointing out had you not said anything about it, at all, this wouldn't even be being discussed in this thread.

Wow, just wow...

If you had actually paid attention there was indeed someone else who told me I should have PMed the guy and I literally told him I agreed and shouldn't have put it out here on the boards.

However, then the guy himself thought nothing of that and replied anyway after which we had 2 posts back and forth, that's it. I wasn't trying to be witty nor "somehow taking the high road" I was really annoyed with his tone and expressed such.

Calling me oversensitive isn't helping and saying it would not have been an issue if I hadn't brought it up just doesn't mean anything as I brought it up for a (at least to me) legitimate reason.