Oh yeah? My mom writes the threads your mom reads!

When your opinion amounts to "it's bad game design just because I don't like it" then its an opinion that holds no weight. Just because you don't like the fact that the designers are endeavering to make career choice more relevant does not denote bad game design. Or that someone in said career can beeline to the signature ability, yet someone who has spent 100s of XP on specs in that career can not take said signature abilities. You may not agree with the design, but it isn't automatically bad.

It's perfectly fine to not like the direction the system has taken. Union is well within his rights to think it "should" be something else.

When he takes that opinion and declares it "bad design" though – as if it is an objective fact – he's totally off base. The comments that amount to "you don't get it, it's just wrong" aren't adding anything to the discussion.

He isn't saying that it's bad game design because he doesn't like it, he is saying it is bad game design because it is very restrictive. In his opinion (correct me if I am wrong), he seems to think that the signature ability should be open to all who spend XP in that field. The player character's career may have evolved over the course of the game to more accurately reflect a new specialization, or they are at least equally qualified to have the signature skill based on their experiences.

The ability to purchase a second career or change one's career would both be options that would solve this problem (but aren't in the RAW). He may not express it in the nicest way, but I agree that the game shouldn't be as restrictive as written.

he seems to think that the signature ability should be open to all who spend XP in that field

I think no one here would deny the guy his own opinion. I know I don't, however I tried to, and have seen others try to, discuss things with him in a descent manner and only saw him bullying his opinion unto others as if he has the final say in what constitutes good or bad game design. And doing so in an obtuse and rude manner, which of course isn't helping people sympathize with him either.

When your opinion amounts to "it's bad game design just because I don't like it" then its an opinion that holds no weight. Just because you don't like the fact that the designers are endeavering to make career choice more relevant does not denote bad game design. Or that someone in said career can beeline to the signature ability, yet someone who has spent 100s of XP on specs in that career can not take said signature abilities. You may not agree with the design, but it isn't automatically bad.

It's perfectly fine to not like the direction the system has taken. Union is well within his rights to think it "should" be something else.

When he takes that opinion and declares it "bad design" though – as if it is an objective fact – he's totally off base. The comments that amount to "you don't get it, it's just wrong" aren't adding anything to the discussion.

He isn't saying that it's bad game design because he doesn't like it, he is saying it is bad game design because it is very restrictive. In his opinion (correct me if I am wrong), he seems to think that the signature ability should be open to all who spend XP in that field. The player character's career may have evolved over the course of the game to more accurately reflect a new specialization, or they are at least equally qualified to have the signature skill based on their experiences.

The ability to purchase a second career or change one's career would both be options that would solve this problem (but aren't in the RAW). He may not express it in the nicest way, but I agree that the game shouldn't be as restrictive as written.

The thing is, the thought that the game being "restrictive" is bad game design is itself based on his personal opinion. There are very good arguments both for an against this kind of class-driven character development, but it all comes down to preference.

It doesn't help that this was a design goal that is stated in the Core Book about what careers represent. Careers are intended to be iconic representations of who characters are regardless of what happens in the narrative (i.e. Han Solo is a Smuggler no matter how much soldier work he does).

I understand there's a ton of new equipment and vehicles, but is there any big game in this book for the big game hunter to hunt? or locations for the archeologist to dig around in?

O and talking about someone's opinion that differs from your own this much people is....well kinda stewpud IMO

Smells like socks here...

I understand the position. I don't agree its restrictive. Getting the signature abilities isn't based on the amount of XP you've spent. Opened up to anyone, people could just beeline to any signature abilities out of the gate. So this isn't about the amount of XP invested. It is more about being able to cherry-pick whatever abilities one wants. People complained when the Fighter's Handbook or the Martial Handbook came out before the Wizard's Handbook or the Arcane Handbook. And what with people wanting the careers to have more relevance, this is a good step towards that. Let's just wait to see more signature before we start making sweeping statements about unfair they are or whether they should be open to all.

I understand there's a ton of new equipment and vehicles, but is there any big game in this book for the big game hunter to hunt? or locations for the archeologist to dig around in?

Not really, much to the book's detriment.

That is definitely a disappointment for me then. I am hoping for more exotic creatures and mysterious glimpses of the long ago past.

There is a lot of potential in those two career paths, I a sorry to see it still going untapped.

Yeah, was hoping for some new NPCs, particularly critters, but alas.

Depending on the eventual fate of the Gamer Security Agency, I may have to see about doing some more beast conversions for the Threat Assessment column.

HappyDaze,

I know you had some concerns with the Ghtroc 720 as it was presented in the Beta, given the "conflict" it had with prior RPG editions of the ship. Kinda curious how you feel now that it's "officially" on the books, as it largely has the same stats as the Beta, only with a higher price tag and slightly worse handling, the later conflicting with the notion that the Ghtroc 720 wasn't quite as durable as the YT-1300 series but was a bit more maneuverable.

I did like the section on nemeses.Makes me want to create an adventure that includes a "Moby ****" or "Jaws". No new creatures in Enter the Unknown though which makes me wonder if FFG has plans to release creature stats elsewhere, such as some Creature Catalog.

HappyDaze,

I know you had some concerns with the Ghtroc 720 as it was presented in the Beta, given the "conflict" it had with prior RPG editions of the ship. Kinda curious how you feel now that it's "officially" on the books, as it largely has the same stats as the Beta, only with a higher price tag and slightly worse handling, the later conflicting with the notion that the Ghtroc 720 wasn't quite as durable as the YT-1300 series but was a bit more maneuverable.

I thought the book was a bit simple. Not saying I didn't like it but it has a few character creation options, new equipment and what felt like an expanded gm section from the core book. That's it. I think it feels a bit shocking after receiving a meaty massive core book. Again not saying I didn't like the content in the book, just seemed like the information inside could have been organized into three easy to reference books like a heroes guide of expanded character creation options, a gm guide, and an equipment book. Not sure I'm liking the careers separated into books if they are going to be this skimpy. Meh it's an affordable book at least. I'm really looking forward to suns of fortune though!

Why is it dumb that your characters initial choice of career (what should help define them) has an ability that makes the choice more meaningful?

You worked at McDonalds in high school, sorry, you can't become a good doctor, your signature ability will always be the patty flip.

It is a remarkably stupid mechanic. As I pointed out. Someone with 400 points in explorer can't take it but someone with 40 can. Stupid. Add on top that you can't switch careers, Luke will ALWAYS be a moisture farmer, he can NEVER be a top Jedi, sorry kid, you didn't go t the Jedi Academy when you were young.

So don't use it. Is that a big leap? I think modding sucks. I play but if I GMed I'd house rule the crap out of modding. My game my rules, your game your rules. Not really a big deal. Plus I think when all the SAs are released each career path will have its own shine more so.

Bad thread design.

BURRRRRRNNNNNNN

I did like the section on nemeses.Makes me want to create an adventure that includes a "Moby ****" or "Jaws". No new creatures in Enter the Unknown though which makes me wonder if FFG has plans to release creature stats elsewhere, such as some Creature Catalog.

Well, I would like to buy that!

However, Star Wars for me has never been that much monster heavy... and just going back the movies themselves you'd be hard pressed to fill a book with them, I think.

Sure there are the Wampa, Bantha, Rancor, Sarlac, Minochs, Nexu (which are stated in Beyond The Rim) etc. but they almost always play second fiddle to the interactions between intelligent races (of which there are a heck of a lot more. But still, I'd buy it!

Just as long as the leave the Zillo Beast out of it...

I was wondering if you could integrate Pacific Rim in to Star Wars.

I mean, Star Wars has giant monsters like the space slug and walking mecha, so having a modified AT-AT whack a giant rancor with a YT-1300 it is wielding as a club isn't too far out of genre...

Well, I would like to buy that!

However, Star Wars for me has never been that much monster heavy... and just going back the movies themselves you'd be hard pressed to fill a book with them, I think.

Sure there are the Wampa, Bantha, Rancor, Sarlac, Minochs, Nexu (which are stated in Beyond The Rim) etc. but they almost always play second fiddle to the interactions between intelligent races (of which there are a heck of a lot more. But still, I'd buy it!

Just as long as the leave the Zillo Beast out of it...

We must have the stats for the Opee Sea Killer. (That's also my vote for the silliest creature name in G-canon--what does it do, kill oceans?)

"Big gooberfish! Huge-o teeth!"

--Jar Jar Binks

Sure there are the Wampa, Bantha, Rancor, Sarlac, Minochs, Nexu (which are stated in Beyond The Rim) etc. but they almost always play second fiddle to the interactions between intelligent races (of which there are a heck of a lot more. But still, I'd buy it!

Eh, every movie has monsters play a part in at least one scene, where the creature was the focal point of the encounter. Dianoga, space slug, worm thing on Dagobah that ate R2, Sarlacc, fish things on Naboo, the beasties on Geonosis and - Hmm, okay, III didn't have one (well, aside from that thing that Kenobi rode), but that's still 5 out of 6 that prominently featured monsters at one point.

[...] that Kenobi rode [...]

Let's get stats for that.

Sure there are the Wampa, Bantha, Rancor, Sarlac, Minochs, Nexu (which are stated in Beyond The Rim) etc. but they almost always play second fiddle to the interactions between intelligent races (of which there are a heck of a lot more. But still, I'd buy it!

Eh, every movie has monsters play a part in at least one scene, where the creature was the focal point of the encounter. Dianoga, space slug, worm thing on Dagobah that ate R2, Sarlacc, fish things on Naboo, the beasties on Geonosis and - Hmm, okay, III didn't have one (well, aside from that thing that Kenobi rode), but that's still 5 out of 6 that prominently featured monsters at one point.

Not really countering the point I was making... I agree that monsters do play a part and are indeed the focal point of the scenes they are in, but in general these scenes play second fiddle to the others where interaction with intelligent races is the main score. Heck, half of the encounters with monsters come from the earlier interactions with inteligentia... The Rancor? Jabba's pet. The Sarlac? Jabba's execution toy. The Nexus? Entertainment on Geonosis. Etc. Etc. They aren't a big focal point of the movies in my opinion and I cannot make a list long enough to fill even half a book if we would stick to the 6 movies we have (even if we included mounts and beasts of burden.)

They probably spend more time on monsters than they do on freighter crews and the underworld.

--

Speaking of Big Game Hunting:-

The 4 Bore Elephant Rifle:-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CnEcZ1WxAdM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hsvizH4U26E

They probably spend more time on monsters than they do on freighter crews and the underworld.

Setting aside how dubious that remark is....