I have arranged with a friend to play a matched game next week.

4 Rookie X-Wings with Engine Upgrades vs 4 Tempest Squadron with Engine Upgrades.

That is the first Mirror Match as I see it.

The game should be close. let's see shall we?

You should play this 2 times in a row. I think initiative matters a lot in this games.

If the X-Wings got the initiative, you might get a chance.

Try to stay out of their arcs and use the evade action if you got target locks on you and they are going to attack. Try to concentrate fire. This will be very close up to the end.

On the other hand, if you have initiative - i'll bet you don't manage to kill more than 1 X-Wing.

He will just blow you away.

Instead of Engine upgrades on those Advanceds, I'd feel much better about 2 of them having homing missiles, 1 with a Concussion missile, and 1 upgraded to a Storm squadron. If you can kill 1 X-wing on turn 2, you'll do much much better in a game of 4 vs 3 than even up 3 vs 3.

But you are better off with 2 Academy Ties, you have twice the firepower and 6 HP.

twice the firepower (4 AD) is way different than 2 ships with 2 AD that don't have target lock.

Yes, they don't have target lock and 2 x 2 still is 4, unless I somehow slipped into kind of a weirdo universe without noticing it.

And your point now is? ...

2 Tie fighters don't deal twice the damage shooting at a Tie Advanced, for example, because 2 AD has a much smaller chance of hitting vs 3 Evade than 4 AD. You're over stating how much better better 2 Tie Fighters are over 1 advanced. 2 Fighters also cost more points than 1 advanced, and their firepower decreases after one is destroyed - if you want to make the comparison, why not throw a Concussion missile on the Advanced to make it fair?

And this is the reason why you prefere 1 Advanced over 2 Academies. Have you ever used the Advanced in your own lists?

I smell a rebel player .....

For a good shot with your missile you should take a Storm pilot. And since its only one point more, a homin missile. Now you are good for one shot. And its only 28 points. I would prefere 2 Black Squadron Pilots then.

If the PS4 Adv would be 20 points and you could go like: 4 x Storm + Homing Missile, this would be a whole different story.

I play both Imperial and Rebel, though when playing locally we almost always run Rebel vs Imperial instead of doing mirror matches for what its worth. From the other thread, which mostly got ignored, I posted a mini battle report running a pair of Advanceds and rocking my game:

Ran this yesterday:

Vader, Expose, Engine Upgrade, Concussion

Maarek Steele, PtL, Concussion

Obsidian

Academy

Played against:

Blue Squadron, HLC, Advanced Sensors, Shield Upgrade

Blue Squadron, HLC, Advanced Sensors

Blue Squadron, HLC, Advanced Sensors

I burned in full speed turn 1, but he didn't, so no one shot anything. Turn 2, he focused all around and I dropped both concussion missiles on one of the blue squadrons - It evaded one of vaders 4 hits. Maarek got 3 hits and a crit and the blue pulled a blank on defense. I the 3rd damage card down was a direct hit, so I chose that and the blue squadron went down without firing a shot. Blues both fired HLC on vader and landed 3 hits. The obsidian and Academy managed to knock 1 shield off of the blue squad with the shield upgrade. Next turn I tried to block with the Academy (he used advanced sensor to barrel roll and avoid the block) and selected moves that would let me focus fire on the Blue that had taken a hit. Vader boosted and barrel rolled out of the line of fire of both blues, but was only able to line up a range 2 shot on the other blue because of it and didn't do any damage. Maarek went head to head with the blue in range 1 and target locked and focused, the obsidian also hit range 1 with a barrel roll. They knocked off 4 shields and in return Maarek took 2 hits. The other blue put 2 hits on the academy. Next turn we both ended up K turning a bunch excluding vader & maarek. Vader lined up a shot on the damaged blue without being able to be shot by the other blue, so he exposed and target locked. Vader put 4 hits on the blue (horray for blanks) and the obsidian finished it off (did I mention horray blanks?). We ended up calling it at this point as the last blue just wasn't going to be able to win against 4 ships.

Puttin all pieces together, the Adv should go like:

Option A:

Tempest 18 points

Storm 20 points

Maarek 24 points

Vader 27 points

Option B:

Missile Slot = Multi-Use Secondary Weapon Slot

Tempest 19 points

Storm 21 points

Maarek 25 points

Vader 28 points

Option C:

+ System Upgrade Slot

Tempest 20 points

Storm 22 points

Maarek 26 points

Vader 28 points

There are of course more possibilities with point costs and EPT for the Storms and so on.

Found this from awhile ago:

___________________________________________

Advanced should be dropped 1 pt across the board... even Vader. Yep, people load him up and make him viable, not people would still load him up and he might actually be useful. If you reduce by one and use some of these titles, advanced become pretty fun! If you don't reduce the costs, make these titles cost 1 less (except x7)

Advanced- Lord Vader's x1 (unique): free, add the elite pilot skill upgrade to your upgrade bar.

Advanced- Prototype x2: 1pt, add the systems upgrade to your upgrade bar.

Advanced- Prototype x3: 1pt, your firing arc is increased to 180 degrees.

Advanced- Prototype x7: 2pts, you may use the tie interceptor movement dial rather than the tie advanced movement dial.

Advanced- Prototype Aggressor: 1pt, you have a rear firing arc

I'm obviously not sure about the point costs. Anything that just adds an upgrade slot should be 0 or 1 and if it does cost points it should be worth more than 1 pt to make up for the fact that some of these ships are around a point over-costed anyway.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I'd like to go back to this. Titles and new pilots are likely the only "fix" we're going to get. Working with the idea that the Advanced is at least 1pt overcosted, most of these titles could be free much like Royal Guard title. Most of these title do the exact things we've been talking about:

EPT

Improved Maneuverability (or improved arcs to make maneuverability less of an issue)

Systems Upgrade

Do these Titles need to cost points? I think the X7 probably still does and maybe the EPT (but note the unique rule).

Any Advanced Pilot ideas?

@Endgame124

Wow you have the balls to run Vader with expose and Maarek with ptl ^^

Congrats on this match. You were very lucky with the missile rolles - this matters a lot.

Was Expose on Vader worth it?

I played again with the same 4 Tempest set up again last night and I have drawn a conclusion.

One of two things is wrong with the Tempest either the dial needs fixing or it's firepower does.

You simply cannot play like an X-Wing and go head to head with 2 attack dice.

You cannot however maneuver well enough to hit and run or tuck in (even with barrel roll).

Now, there is no way that FFG will want to reissue new dials or change all the cards for attack. Nor should they.

This brings me right back to Systems Upgrades.

Fire Control Systems. Greatly improves you shooting by allowing a limited TL and Focus each round if you concentrate on one target.

Advanced Sensors. Helps with maneuverability, especially if you add an Engine Upgrade.

Sensor Jammer. Helps with survivability.

The beauty being the player must chose what style to fly and pay an appropriate cost to improve his or her Advanced. It also requires nothing on the dial or card to be changed.

I am going to try a test with System Upgrades next time.

If you look to the two fighters on the Rebel side that the Advanced is supposed to be a mirror for, the X and to a certain extent, the B, it is woefully disadvantaged.

While interesting, the main drawback is that requires spending more points on a ship that is inherently weak to begin with. It also doesn't help the ship at all if you don't take the upgrade.

B-Wings don't need System Upgrade to be useful.

Lambda's don't even need System Upgrade to be useful (although it can certainly help).

Puttin all pieces together, the Adv should go like:

Option A:

Tempest 18 points

Storm 20 points

Maarek 24 points

Vader 27 points

Option B:

Missile Slot = Multi-Use Secondary Weapon Slot

Tempest 19 points

Storm 21 points

Maarek 25 points

Vader 28 points

Option C:

+ System Upgrade Slot

Tempest 20 points

Storm 22 points

Maarek 26 points

Vader 29 points

There are of course more possibilities with point costs and EPT for the Storms and so on.

This is I think the fairest fit. just my opinion

Which one? A, B, C?

Vader with engine upgrade can be fun, except from that I never use the advance, its a shame it is one of my favorite ships

@Endgame124

Wow you have the balls to run Vader with expose and Maarek with ptl ^^

Congrats on this match. You were very lucky with the missile rolles - this matters a lot.

Was Expose on Vader worth it?

Its not really a lot of luck on the missiles - with Focus and Target lock I think you get 4 hits like 90% of the time. Against a 1 evade ship, you're almost guaranteed to land all 4 points of damage too. The only piece of luck was landing the crit with Maarek, which happens every now and then with push the limits - from experience it tends to happen for me once or twice a game, though it seems that half of those times it just eats a shield. I had a most epic game a few weeks back where Maarek with a cluster missile rolled 4 crits and 2 hits (Jonus helped) against a falcon. Only problem was it was a fresh falcon piloted by Chewie...

Anyway, Expose on vader depends on the number of ships that can shoot him and if you already have a target lock on the the table. Given that Vader is PS 9, if you're shooting at something you already had a target lock on, Expose pays off - Expose and Focus, then destroy the target before he can shoot back. You can also out maneuver a lot of ships with that PS9 too if you also have the engine upgrade. Biggest problem is the falcon, but even then it can pay off - Vader with 1 HP in range 1 of Han? Might as well expose - you're going to get destroyed anyway, so you might as well roll an extra red die.

I find vader uses Expose 2 to 3 times per game, so you have to weigh if that is worth 4 points.

Edit

There is also no way a Tempest squadron should be 18 points - thats just 1 more than a prototype and you get an extra hull point, an extra ps and barrel roll.

There is also no way a Tempest squadron should be 18 points - thats just 1 more than a prototype and you get an extra hull point, an extra ps and barrel roll.

Minus the decent A-Wing dial and boost, don't forget

Puttin all pieces together, the Adv should go like:

Option A:

Tempest 18 points

Storm 20 points

Maarek 24 points

Vader 27 points

Option B:

Missile Slot = Multi-Use Secondary Weapon Slot

Tempest 19 points

Storm 21 points

Maarek 25 points

Vader 28 points

Option C:

+ System Upgrade Slot

Tempest 20 points

Storm 22 points

Maarek 26 points

Vader 29 points

There are of course more possibilities with point costs and EPT for the Storms and so on.

This is I think the fairest fit. just my opinion

**** that was supposed to say I prefer option C

going back to this

I don't know if it's been mentioned in the previous 9 pages (didn't read all of it), but the TIE Advanced seems pretty comparable to an X-Wing (at the lowest levels mind you, named pilots being an exception).

The attack and defense are flipped, and both ships at this level are 21 points. You increase to Red Squadron and Storm Squadron and they are both 4 PS and cost 23 points.

The TIE has a better movement dial than the X-wing, and twice the actions on the bar. Granted the X-wing can take an astromech, but does the astromech really make it that much more playable?

Granted, i find myself falling victim to the "there is no place in my squads for TIE Adv not named Vader", but that doesn't necessarily mean it's a bad ship. I think personally i just prefer to use other ships.

Am i off-base here, or is the impression that just because people don't use it it needs to be "fixed"? Not looking to get flamed out, just curious is all.

if there was an empire equivalent way to simulate astromechs I think even just a title upgrade for free that would simulate an R2 astro would be a great help

I just tried a shootout Maarek + Markmanship vs. a noname B-Wing at range 2.

First I used the Maarek with his actual ability. I used Markmanship as action once the shields of the B-Wing were gone.

I repeated this scenario for 10 times.

I must say that the B-Wings are brutal in a shootout. Maarek lost every time. It was close in a few battles when he was able to burn through the shield and actually had the chance to use his ability - but then he rolled a [blank] [hit] or a [blank] [eye] ... and the B-Wing was able to evade those single hits and blasted the last 1 ore 2 hull the Advanced got left at this point every time! A B-Wing sure is the most difficult no-name opponent for Maarek. Its worse than a X-Wing.

Then I tried the same scenario using the modified ability. Again 10 times; this time Maarek was using Markmanship every time he attacked, so no focus left for defence. In this scenario Maarek won 4 of 10 battles. In two of the 4 wins it was really close, while Maarek had only 1 hull left. It happened only once that Maarek was able to produce a natural [crit] and a [eye] and the B-Wing failed to evade one crit. He often rolled [blank] [hit] or [hit] [hit] or [hit] [eye] ... so the hits were divided between shields and hull.

So I must say it was fun to test the modified Maarek and even if he would be good especially against B-Wings, or better: he would have a chance against a B-Wing. Putting it all together I feel that an ability like this is far from being overpowered but its fun to play with the tactical options which would come with it. And even if Maarek never will have this ability, I really hope there will be an Imperial pilot with exact this ability.

FYI, I figured I would look up these probabilities for you.

0 hits 1+ hits 2 hits

29.68% 70.31% 21.1% 2 attack dice + focus vs 1 defense dice + focus

20.3% 79.7% 35.1% 2 attack dice + focus vs 1 defense dice

So if you let his crits bypass shields and go directly to hull, then he should take (at most) 3/0.7 = 4.2 rounds to kill a B-wing. That's still not exactly good, but lets look at the B-Wing's chances.

0 hits 1+ hits 2+ hits 3+ hits

54% 46% 15% 2.2% 3 attack dice + focus vs 3 defense dice + focus = 0.64 avg

27.8% 72% 39% 10.2% 3 attack dice + focus vs 3 defense dice = 1.22 avg

53.4% 46.6% 17% 3% 3 attack dice vs 3 defense dice = 0.67 avg

If Maarek shoots first, then the B-Wing will have a 76.6% chance of still having its focus to attack. So the B-Wing's average damage would be:

1.22*0.766 + 0.67*(1-0.766) = 1.09 damage

So, that's an average of 5/1.09 = 4.6 rounds for the B-Wing to kill Maarek.

Given that Maarek shoots first, you would generally expect him to win, and probably with one hull left. Your results were about what would be expected, but it sounds like the B-Wing got a little lucky.

Range 1 will start to favor the B-Wing more, because the extra hits that Maarek does will get mostly absorbed by shields, whereas the B-Wing's damage is going to pile up on Maarek that much faster. The B-Wing's damage would be 1.9 with a focus, and 1.05 without. B-wing would have a 75% chance of still having focus, so weighted average damage would be 1.69, and Maarek would die in just a hair under 3 rounds, on average.

So, yeah, it's interesting but doesn't look totally overpowered given that this is the best matchup for the Advanced, and it's still 50-50 or losing. On a 3-attack ship it could open up some more possibilities.

So, the more and more I think about it, the ADV just simply needs to get the Aces treatment to be updated. I won't dare speculate on exact abilities, because those sorts of recommendations typically amount to an unrequited wish list. The types of abilities would need to be subtly supportive of other ships in the squadron. While you may never want to field more than one or two of these speculative ADVs, you almost would certainly be compelled to include one. Of course, this runs the risk of marginalizing the Lambda's purpose, but outside of providing us with Advanced Sensors and Colonel Jendon, theyre already a bit soft.

Its not really a lot of luck on the missiles - with Focus and Target lock I think you get 4 hits like 90% of the time. Against a 1 evade ship, you're almost guaranteed to land all 4 points of damage too.

There is also no way a Tempest squadron should be 18 points - thats just 1 more than a prototype and you get an extra hull point, an extra ps and barrel roll.

Your numbers are slightly optimistic, but that just means Imperial propaganda is working, and convincing its pilots that they have a better chance at surviving than they actually do.

Concussion Missiles w/ Focus + TL has a 73.8% chance of getting 4 hits.

Homing Missile w/ Focus + TL has a 77.25% chance of getting 4 hits.

19 points for a Tempest makes sense. 18 does not. You make a good point.

Thank you, MajorJuggler. I'm happy you did the math on this case.

I got the 50:50 feeling of a pretty balanced situation - the B-Wing just had better rolls.

I am also happy that you actually can imagine that an unique ability like this could be fun and interesting to use, while it isn't overpowered.

Also, they can adjust the points without reprinting cards by adding a modification that says:

Modification: [insert name here] (TIE Advanced only): reduce the point cost of this ship by 2.

The only drawbacks to this would be Vader costs 2 less rather than 1 less (not the end of the world), and you can't take a 2nd modification with this, which also isn't the end of the world.

I just got another idea to fix the Advanced without overpowering it.

You say that the Advanced is overpriced by 2 points?

Then you'll get an upgrade for free worth 2 points:

Every TIE Advanced gets a Fire-Control System for free

Yeah thats it. Plain and simple, yet effective.

I just got another idea to fix the Advanced without overpowering it.

You say that the Advanced is overpriced by 2 points?

Then you'll get an upgrade for free worth 2 points:

Every TIE Advanced gets a Fire-Control System for free

Yeah thats it. Plain and simple, yet effective.

Im oddly comfortable with this, or something more flexible but similar.

I just got another idea to fix the Advanced without overpowering it.

You say that the Advanced is overpriced by 2 points?

Then you'll get an upgrade for free worth 2 points:

Every TIE Advanced gets a Fire-Control System for free

Yeah thats it. Plain and simple, yet effective.

simple... good... and why aint you working for ffg? lol

Its not really a lot of luck on the missiles - with Focus and Target lock I think you get 4 hits like 90% of the time. Against a 1 evade ship, you're almost guaranteed to land all 4 points of damage too.

There is also no way a Tempest squadron should be 18 points - thats just 1 more than a prototype and you get an extra hull point, an extra ps and barrel roll.

Your numbers are slightly optimistic, but that just means Imperial propaganda is working, and convincing its pilots that they have a better chance at surviving than they actually do.

Concussion Missiles w/ Focus + TL has a 73.8% chance of getting 4 hits.

Homing Missile w/ Focus + TL has a 77.25% chance of getting 4 hits.

19 points for a Tempest makes sense. 18 does not. You make a good point.

lol, Ok, 3 games out of 4 still feels pretty good for me that the Missiles will land 4 hits. I can't tell you how many B-Wings I've lost due to missiles, and in general it makes me not like the B-wing all that much. A good number of posters must not play against ptl missiles much for there to be other opinions. I'm also not really sold on the Advanced Sensors - I have neither played with them or against them extensively, but they were essentially a waste of points in my game above.

At for 19 points for a Tempest, I'm still thinking its too few points in comparison to the prototype (its even cheaper per HP than a tie fighter), but I suppose I'd rather see the Advanced be a little too good for its points if we were going to make a modification.

didn't I already sort of suggest this

Thought it about time I joined in and probably repeated a load of stuff...

I think we can all agree that whether the ship is over costed or not FFG are extremely unlikely to ever adjust its cost so we can stop talking about that can't we..

which only leaves creating new pilots that may not fit the point scale they already used to make them but may at least add some options that see play.

or they give us an upgrade like the imperial aces.

I cannot stress how much I want to fly Vader with advanced sensors but I may honestly be happy with a Fire control system, at least it helps to fire close range missiles with a lock + focus, it also helps with dogfighting.

Maybe this could even be at a slightly different cost /value

Advanced Tie specific FCS costing 1 point, I don't know just spit balling

I do not know what the star wars cannon is on the ordinance but what if we got a proton torp slot for the advanced.

Certainly I would feel a little happier with Maarek Steele if I could fire a Proton Torp.

not to mention Vader with an APT, but that is sort of where the plan falls apart

I just got another idea to fix the Advanced without overpowering it.

You say that the Advanced is overpriced by 2 points?

Then you'll get an upgrade for free worth 2 points:

Every TIE Advanced gets a Fire-Control System for free

Yeah thats it. Plain and simple, yet effective.

perhaps a free title giving FCS to all the advanced except the prototype so as not to overpower Vader,

I always felt maybe Vader could be 28pts but didn't like the feel of him being lower than Wedge theme wise so am happy with 29pts

17 points for a PS1 Prototype vs 19 points for a PS2 Advanced is about right. The prototype has a better dial + engine boost, and the Advanced gains 1 shield and +1PS for 2 points. It's about a wash.

At 19 points you do get +2 shields relative to a TIE fighter, but you have the same attack, so the TIE Fighter is actually much better value. If you had 19 TIE Fighters vs 12 TIE Advanced, the TIE Fighters would clean house because they have much more attack and redundancy.

The more I think about it, the more I like the idea of different upgrades that you could put on the Advanced for free, or for some cost. You could argue that some of the improvements that later were fitted to the TIE Interceptor, Avenger, and Defender, could trickle down to the original x1 Advanced. All of these would be TIE Advanced only, and would preclude you from taking any other ship upgrade. Summarizing some of the ideas here:

Improved Manufacturing (0 points)

Reduce the cost of this ship by 2 points.

Weapons Upgrade: (3 points)

Add +1 attack to this ship's primary weapons

Increased Maneuverability (0 points)

This ship now uses the TIE Interceptor maneuver dial, and gains the Engine Boost action

Versatile Payload (0 points)

This ship gains the System Upgrade slot, and may equip any secondary weapon in the Missile Slot.

I am sure we can think of some other ideas. Balance-wise, 3 points for +1 attack is probably about right. Compared to an X-Wing, you're basically paying +3 to get one agility, barrel roll, and the evade action, but you do lose the forward 1 maneuver. Compared to a TIE Interceptor, you are paying 5 points to get 2 shields, but lose boost and the improved maneuver dial.

Commentary: balance discussion welcome. Advanced Payload is a very interesting one, because you can now have a 26 point PS2 Ion Turret with 3 agility and 5 HPs. That's 3 points more than a PS2 Gold Y-Wing with an Ion, so makes for an interesting comparison.