I just tried a shootout Maarek + Markmanship vs. a noname B-Wing at range 2.

First I used the Maarek with his actual ability. I used Markmanship as action once the shields of the B-Wing were gone.

I repeated this scenario for 10 times.

I must say that the B-Wings are brutal in a shootout. Maarek lost every time. It was close in a few battles when he was able to burn through the shield and actually had the chance to use his ability - but then he rolled a [blank] [hit] or a [blank] [eye] ... and the B-Wing was able to evade those single hits and blasted the last 1 ore 2 hull the Advanced got left at this point every time! A B-Wing sure is the most difficult no-name opponent for Maarek. Its worse than a X-Wing.

Then I tried the same scenario using the modified ability. Again 10 times; this time Maarek was using Markmanship every time he attacked, so no focus left for defence. In this scenario Maarek won 4 of 10 battles. In two of the 4 wins it was really close, while Maarek had only 1 hull left. It happened only once that Maarek was able to produce a natural [crit] and a [eye] and the B-Wing failed to evade one crit. He often rolled [blank] [hit] or [hit] [hit] or [hit] [eye] ... so the hits were divided between shields and hull.

So I must say it was fun to test the modified Maarek and even if he would be good especially against B-Wings, or better: he would have a chance against a B-Wing. Putting it all together I feel that an ability like this is far from being overpowered but its fun to play with the tactical options which would come with it. And even if Maarek never will have this ability, I really hope there will be an Imperial pilot with exact this ability.

Pleased to see the results of a simple test.

Curious though, how damaging were the crits you managed to deal?

Any worthwhile or mainly crits that didn't bother the b wing much.

I played again with the same 4 Tempest set up again last night and I have drawn a conclusion.

One of two things is wrong with the Tempest either the dial needs fixing or it's firepower does.

You simply cannot play like an X-Wing and go head to head with 2 attack dice.

You cannot however maneuver well enough to hit and run or tuck in (even with barrel roll).

Now, there is no way that FFG will want to reissue new dials or change all the cards for attack. Nor should they.

This brings me right back to Systems Upgrades.

Fire Control Systems. Greatly improves you shooting by allowing a limited TL and Focus each round if you concentrate on one target.

Advanced Sensors. Helps with maneuverability, especially if you add an Engine Upgrade.

Sensor Jammer. Helps with survivability.

The beauty being the player must chose what style to fly and pay an appropriate cost to improve his or her Advanced. It also requires nothing on the dial or card to be changed.

I am going to try a test with System Upgrades next time.

If you look to the two fighters on the Rebel side that the Advanced is supposed to be a mirror for, the X and to a certain extent, the B, it is woefully disadvantaged.

Pleased to see the results of a simple test.

Curious though, how damaging were the crits you managed to deal?

Any worthwhile or mainly crits that didn't bother the b wing much.

There was no double damage amongst the cards and none that did bother the B-Wing in this scenario.

I played again with the same 4 Tempest set up again last night and I have drawn a conclusion.

One of two things is wrong with the Tempest either the dial needs fixing or it's firepower does.

You simply cannot play like an X-Wing and go head to head with 2 attack dice.

You cannot however maneuver well enough to hit and run or tuck in (even with barrel roll).

Now, there is no way that FFG will want to reissue new dials or change all the cards for attack. Nor should they.

This brings me right back to Systems Upgrades.

Fire Control Systems. Greatly improves you shooting by allowing a limited TL and Focus each round if you concentrate on one target.

Advanced Sensors. Helps with maneuverability, especially if you add an Engine Upgrade.

Sensor Jammer. Helps with survivability.

The beauty being the player must chose what style to fly and pay an appropriate cost to improve his or her Advanced. It also requires nothing on the dial or card to be changed.

I am going to try a test with System Upgrades next time.

If you look to the two fighters on the Rebel side that the Advanced is supposed to be a mirror for, the X and to a certain extent, the B, it is woefully disadvantaged.

I can get behind this. The Advanced is kinda 'wrong'. It would be better if it had the X-Wing dial. You miss the green 1. Or there should be at least an additional 5 kturn, like the Bombers have it.

From my experience only Vader with Engine Upgrade makes the Advanced useful. Not to make damage, but to distract while evading their fire arcs. And thats 33 points. 66 points left to do the damage.

I got the feeling that it is not enough to simply put a System Upgrade slot on them. They have to be cheaper as well.

Or you just regard them as what they were ... ineffective prototypes, too expensive and not worth to take into consideration - unless flown by the most skilled pilot in the galaxy.

I can get behind this. The Advanced is kinda 'wrong'. It would be better if it had the X-Wing dial. You miss the green 1. Or there should be at least an additional 5 kturn, like the Bombers have it.

From my experience only Vader with Engine Upgrade makes the Advanced useful. Not to make damage, but to distract while evading their fire arcs. And thats 33 points. 66 points left to do the damage.

I got the feeling that it is not enough to simply put a System Upgrade slot on them. They have to be cheaper as well.

Or you just regard them as what they were ... ineffective prototypes, too expensive and not worth to take into consideration - unless flown by the most skilled pilot in the galaxy.

Vader with Engine upgrade is good, but, honestly, I'd pick the concussion missile or homing missile first every time. Push the Limits Maarek isn't bad either - in either (or both cases) the missile puts out a big burst of damage against most rebel lists, though you'll still have issues against tie fighter swarms.

I'm late to the discussion, but I have to say, for one that stretched out to nine pages, it was amazingly respectful and delightful. I really am keen on the Sensor Icon Upgrade, if it were ever universally agreed the Advanced needed some manner of updating. I'm not really certain it does, though.

It's not a very competitive ship, I certainly agree. It's also not a ship that appears more than once cinematically, and still extremely rarely in the expanded universe. It's non-competitiveness aside, I still enjoy playing with it casually. It is still simply a fun ship to include, and even play a uniform squad with. I feel the same about the A-Wing. I just don't need every ship in my box to be considered meta-viable to love them. Perhaps I'm in the minority there, but that's just my individual style, and I'm someone who can be very cruel in competitive play.

That having been said, the goal of this discussion seems to bypass whether or not the TIE Advanced should be fixed and just assumes it does need an update. Before I get into my ideas for a production update I should submit my best practical contemporary options that I've played. A Vader, Jonus, Howlrunner, Scimitar list has served me several times to great effect. Those models alone are 85 points, so plenty of room for ordnance of your choice. I like Cluster Missiles with Jonus, but others may see the benefit elsewhere.

I'm just not sure what exactly is wrong with the TIE Advanced, or what it's missing to see at least one included in more lists. I feel like it's more because it's a square peg in the many round holes of the Imperial faction's paradigm. I don't see the Firesprays appearing in many competitive lists for what I feel is the same reason. Other than Vader, they're just not that utilitarian compared to LNs or INTs. I really do feel like it may come down to the cost, as has been said earlier, and possibly just one or two points. Yet, I don't see the publisher reversing course there or doing anything to explicitly effect the ADVs.

I really do foresee an upgrade, in the future, that will greatly benefit them. It won't be explicitly directed towards them, but we see a new type of missile quite frequently enough that, perhaps, one will be printed that really does shine on the ADVs. The only problem is, how do you make a missile that works great for them that wouldn't be as exceptional on a TIE Bomber? It'd have to benefit from something that makes the ADV slightly unique compared to the Bomber, and also be logical.

I don't have any solid recommendations for that off the top of my head, but some infantile concepts are forming. Such as 'smart missiles' that you can elect to cancel the hits to not have to discard. Providing you the option to not waste the card if you had a poor roll and save them for later. I'm not sure that'd be better on an ADV than a Bomber, but just something I conjured.

Anyways, I hope my rant wasn't too long for at least a few of you. You've all had some great ideas and insight regarding this and I just wanted to add my own to it.

I have no objections to this being a prototype in Canon, what I do have an issue with is $15 for a ship you can't use (and I have 4). tweaking it to make it viable in the game is important.

I'd like to see the Advanced given a boost because the current tournament lists for the empire are basically all TIE fighters with a small number of bombers and firesprays. That's kind of dull. Giving a boost so that all six ships are tournament-usable makes the whole game better.

I have no objections to this being a prototype in Canon, what I do have an issue with is $15 for a ship you can't use (and I have 4). tweaking it to make it viable in the game is important.

Thats the spirit!

Just don't give up, Pete! I own only 1 Advanced but I really want to have the Advanced (unnamed pilots + Maarek) to be both interesting to play with and competitive. If this is the case (after tweaking it), i'll buy 3 more of them.

A whacky idea that would likely never happen: Make the ADV's Missile Slot a Universal Secondary Weapon Slot....

Should have just said that, which is both illogical, unsupported by canon...but it wasn't a page long response that won't get read.

A whacky idea that would likely never happen: Make the ADV's Missile Slot a Universal Secondary Weapon Slot....

So ... Vader could carry a APT or even an Autoblaster?

I agree it would make the Advanced more interesting - but then its still overpriced ...

... but I must confess, Vader with an Autoblaster would be pain in the ass ^^

and as you can see ... you must choose wisly, or Vader will become power-mad

A whacky idea that would likely never happen: Make the ADV's Missile Slot a Universal Secondary Weapon Slot....

So ... Vader could carry a APT or even an Autoblaster?

I agree it would make the Advanced more interesting - but then its still overpriced ...

In general a universal weapon slot isn't a bad idea. As well as the System Upgrade slot.

Even If the Adv is still overpriced while having this feature, it would be better then it is right now.

But still, this would feel like a half-fix. Unless there is a secondary weapon which is both cheap and reusable. But even then there will be other ships using this weapon and this will make them even more powerful compared to the ADV. A cheap cannon weapon would boost the B-Wing and any ships to come far more then the Advanced.

There must be Advanced-exclusive upgrades to negate this effect, but then maybe Vader will become allmighty.

I don't know if it's been mentioned in the previous 9 pages (didn't read all of it), but the TIE Advanced seems pretty comparable to an X-Wing (at the lowest levels mind you, named pilots being an exception).

The attack and defense are flipped, and both ships at this level are 21 points. You increase to Red Squadron and Storm Squadron and they are both 4 PS and cost 23 points.

The TIE has a better movement dial than the X-wing, and twice the actions on the bar. Granted the X-wing can take an astromech, but does the astromech really make it that much more playable?

Granted, i find myself falling victim to the "there is no place in my squads for TIE Adv not named Vader", but that doesn't necessarily mean it's a bad ship. I think personally i just prefer to use other ships.

Am i off-base here, or is the impression that just because people don't use it it needs to be "fixed"? Not looking to get flamed out, just curious is all.

In general a universal weapon slot isn't a bad idea. As well as the System Upgrade slot.

Even If the Adv is still overpriced while having this feature, it would be better then it is right now.

But still, this would feel like a half-fix. Unless there is a secondary weapon which is both cheap and reusable. But even then there will be other ships using this weapon and this will make them even more powerful compared to the ADV. A cheap cannon weapon would boost the B-Wing and any ships to come far more then the Advanced.

There must be Advanced-exclusive upgrades to negate this effect, but then maybe Vader will become allmighty.

It would have to be something that works off whatever makes the Adv unique to the Bomber but wouldnt exclude it. Like a missile that worked off of the Pilot Skill Value.

It would have to be something that works off whatever makes the Adv unique to the Bomber but wouldnt exclude it. Like a missile that worked off of the Pilot Skill Value.

Right now all that makes the Adv unique is 3 defence dice coupled with 2 shields or with 5 HP if you want. But you are better off with 2 Academy Ties, you have twice the firepower and 6 HP.

You can't make a good use of its defences. If there was a version of Howlrunner piloting a Adv, it could at least be of use for its protectiveness. Or if there were a Biggs in a Adv, it would be just fantastic.

It is lacking a possibility to take an advance of the Advance

But you are better off with 2 Academy Ties, you have twice the firepower and 6 HP.

twice the firepower (4 AD) is way different than 2 ships with 2 AD that don't have target lock.

It would have to be something that works off whatever makes the Adv unique to the Bomber but wouldnt exclude it. Like a missile that worked off of the Pilot Skill Value.

Right now all that makes the Adv unique is 3 defence dice coupled with 2 shields or with 5 HP if you want. But you are better off with 2 Academy Ties, you have twice the firepower and 6 HP.

You can't make a good use of its defences. If there was a version of Howlrunner piloting a Adv, it could at least be of use for its protectiveness. Or if there were a Biggs in a Adv, it would be just fantastic.

It is lacking a possibility to take an advance of the Advance

That brings me to my next set of thoughts I was having. The ADV would fit better in a Rebel build. Its basically designed like a rebel ship, except for one thing: Special Abilities. The X-Wing has a multitude of useful pilot abilities, and so do the TIES. The ADV, being the survivable of the ships, only has one useful special ability. It really should have been the 'buffer' ship. Yes, Vader can do that well with Squad Leader, but I really feel he's better of being selfish with his extra action.

But you are better off with 2 Academy Ties, you have twice the firepower and 6 HP.

twice the firepower (4 AD) is way different than 2 ships with 2 AD that don't have target lock.

Yes, they don't have target lock and 2 x 2 still is 4, unless I somehow slipped into kind of a weirdo universe without noticing it.

And your point now is? ...

On paper, the Adv does have a better dial than an X-Wing, however, in practice, it is worse as it has no 1 forward on the Adv and that is huge in terms of gameplay.

The X-Wing also benefits from an Astromech making all 1 and 2 moves green, also huge.

The Att vs Def dice is a well known trade off where Att over Def everytime.

Again, the ship maybe true to Canon, but it is not "true" to the game and that needs to be resolved.

For the Adv to be the mirror of the X, it must have a 50-50 win rate vs that fighter in a 1-1 or 4-4 fight and it simply doesn't come close.

Whenever you design a list with Rebels the X is always a consideration. The Adv is pretty much never a consideration in Empire lists.

But you are better off with 2 Academy Ties, you have twice the firepower and 6 HP.

twice the firepower (4 AD) is way different than 2 ships with 2 AD that don't have target lock.

Yes, they don't have target lock and 2 x 2 still is 4, unless I somehow slipped into kind of a weirdo universe without noticing it.

And your point now is? ...

2 Tie fighters don't deal twice the damage shooting at a Tie Advanced, for example, because 2 AD has a much smaller chance of hitting vs 3 Evade than 4 AD. You're over stating how much better better 2 Tie Fighters are over 1 advanced. 2 Fighters also cost more points than 1 advanced, and their firepower decreases after one is destroyed - if you want to make the comparison, why not throw a Concussion missile on the Advanced to make it fair?

That brings me to my next set of thoughts I was having. The ADV would fit better in a Rebel build. Its basically designed like a rebel ship, except for one thing: Special Abilities. The X-Wing has a multitude of useful pilot abilities, and so do the TIES. The ADV, being the survivable of the ships, only has one useful special ability. It really should have been the 'buffer' ship. Yes, Vader can do that well with Squad Leader, but I really feel he's better of being selfish with his extra action.

Thats true, Vader is better off selfish, unless he is able to really boost the damage output of an other ship. like ... yeah ... ATP or Expose on a firepower 3 ship.

The Adv is really lacking the variaty of useful unique pilots like the X-Wings have. There is only vader as a supporter or a disruptor/evader or whatever you will name his role. In a competitive play you can just ignore vader in most cases and concentrate on the other Imperial ships. Then take on Vader if there is nothing else left.

So adding more unique pilots with synergy effects would of course enhance the use of the Adv. It would be easy for FFG to print additional pilot cards, but these must be part of an other package.

Same goes for any Advance-exclusive upgrade cards.

I have arranged with a friend to play a matched game next week.

4 Rookie X-Wings with Engine Upgrades vs 4 Tempest Squadron with Engine Upgrades.

That is the first Mirror Match as I see it.

The game should be close. let's see shall we?

But you are better off with 2 Academy Ties, you have twice the firepower and 6 HP.

twice the firepower (4 AD) is way different than 2 ships with 2 AD that don't have target lock.

Yes, they don't have target lock and 2 x 2 still is 4, unless I somehow slipped into kind of a weirdo universe without noticing it.

And your point now is? ...

2 Tie fighters don't deal twice the damage shooting at a Tie Advanced, for example, because 2 AD has a much smaller chance of hitting vs 3 Evade than 4 AD. You're over stating how much better better 2 Tie Fighters are over 1 advanced. 2 Fighters also cost more points than 1 advanced, and their firepower decreases after one is destroyed - if you want to make the comparison, why not throw a Concussion missile on the Advanced to make it fair?

And this is the reason why you prefere 1 Advanced over 2 Academies. Have you ever used the Advanced in your own lists?

I smell a rebel player .....

For a good shot with your missile you should take a Storm pilot. And since its only one point more, a homin missile. Now you are good for one shot. And its only 28 points. I would prefere 2 Black Squadron Pilots then.

If the PS4 Adv would be 20 points and you could go like: 4 x Storm + Homing Missile, this would be a whole different story.

I have arranged with a friend to play a matched game next week.

4 Rookie X-Wings with Engine Upgrades vs 4 Tempest Squadron with Engine Upgrades.

That is the first Mirror Match as I see it.

The game should be close. let's see shall we?

You should play this 2 times in a row. I think initiative matters a lot in this games.

If the X-Wings got the initiative, you might get a chance.

Try to stay out of their arcs and use the evade action if you got target locks on you and they are going to attack. Try to concentrate fire. This will be very close up to the end.

On the other hand, if you have initiative - i'll bet you don't manage to kill more than 1 X-Wing.

He will just blow you away.