If you want to make advanceds work, I recommend:

Jonus, PtL, Homing Missile

Tempest w/ Cluster Missile

Tempest w/ Cluster Missile

Scimitar w/ Proton torp

The list hits hard in the initial volley, as its not impossible to line up all 4 missiles shooting on turn 2. As much as I like bombers, the Advanced is a better dog fighter after the missiles are away, and they make a good contribution to the list as opposed to just using more bombers.

IMO, the advanced my be one point over pointed, but I don't think I'd drop it more than that. In a match of 5x Advanceds vs 4x X-Wings, I'd take the 5 advanceds. 3 Defense dice + Evade really does pay off vs 3 attack dice, and the ability to target lock when you don't have a shot helps the advanceds in the long game vs the X-Wings.

deadlyflorist

I see your point, and on the first glance it seems right. Only, the inversion of attack and evade makes a great difference. An evade die is far less valuable compared to an attack die; you have a lower chance to get a success with the agility roll; and while a successful attack might remove the threat (which is the best defense absolutely) a successful evade gets you another round.

The evade ability might somewhat balance that, but you sacrifice your action for that...

Even if a player is not aware of that fact you somehow have a gut feeling after some games that something is not right with the Advanced compared to a X-Wing.

I agree that the inversion of attack and evade does make a difference, which is why I believe the advanced is pointed correctly even with double the actions that the x-wing has, as well as the better ordinance option. But, I believe, is far closer a comparison then with a a-wing where you have to take into account extra hull, a completely different movement dial, as well as a different roll within the game.

And surviving another round isn't a bad thing, it allows you another shot at destroying the x-wing that shot at you, and I think that using an evade action to escape a round undamaged, while still shooting back isn't really a "sacrifice" of an action. If that x-wing used a TL or s focus during that attack the same could be said for them, that they wasted, or sacrificed their action.

Well, I'm gonna try this..

Vader, cluster, eng upgrade, determination

Storm, eng upgrade, cluster x2

Will let you know how it goes and what the opponent played..

I don't think you can put much stock in the fact it has that extra Evade Action on it bar, on average a focus is just as good in defense for an Agility 3 ship. It only really makes a difference if you can get an extra action, so maybe on Vader.

I have, I think exhausted my arguments now and will be repeating myself going forwards. I am going to fly my Advanced fighters next tourney minus missiles as true fighters and we'll see.

Here is the ' Pete Proves His Point' list (that is tongue in cheek folks)

31 points

Darth Vader

Swarm Tactics

23 points

Storm Squadron Pilot #1

23 points

Storm Squadron Pilot #2

23 points

Storm Squadron Pilot #3

I wish ye luck, friend.

Maybe you even want to try this list:

Just ignore Maareks ability. Now you have 3 ships shooting at a high ps.

The other possibility is to run 4 standard PS2 boys with engine upgrades.

The other possibility is to run 4 standard PS2 boys with engine upgrades.

I'd rather take missiles then, for the same points. Gives you that first heavy punch that's needed, so you can hope to bring them down in the following dogfight. The missiles somewhat balance the lower attack stat... I will give that list a try (will go with all cluster first)

Much like the interceptor, they just don't fit the meta. If you we're facing more Y and A wings it would likely see play. We're not be a use those ships are also not playing well. It can't outfly swarms or Bwings and it can't outshoot the big ships. Until there is a big meta shift, it isn't viable.

I expect packs similar to Imperial Aces for both of those other ships and maybe for the advanced someday. Until something like that happens we're just not going to see them in significant numbers.

I really don't think it's a Meta thing, I really think they are just 2 or even 3 points more expensive than they should be.

---

Lets say you had a ship with Attack 2, Defence 3, Hull 2, Shields 2 and a fairly basic dial and you had the choice of

Making the Dial the BEST in the game OR an extra Hull

Boost OR Barrel Roll

That's the choice you are making between an A-Wing and a X1. I would probably choose the Dial and the Boost out of those options, which is what the A-Wing gets. Yet the X1 is 3 points more expensive.

Maybe "meta" isn't the right word here. The advanced would certainly play differently against squads of A and Y wings but in a world of falcons, xwings, and Bwings it just doesn't pull it's points.

I don't expect a repaint pack like aces for the advanced. Much more likely a card pack and a scenario. Both could be based around the idea of prototypes. It would be pretty cheap to make and sell pretywell me thinks.

Wow! This thread has had a flurry of posts on it. Plenty of opinions to be sure.

Ironically, it seems that FFG got the design of the Advanced correct historically: it is a more durable and more advanced TIE fighter, but less maneuverable and more expensive, so it never saw widespread use. Functionally in game, the ship is also quite accurate to the background that we have for this ship. Job done, lets all go home!

But, this thread is about making it balanced from a gameplay perspective. So we have one of two options:

1. Adjust the cost of the ship
   
   • Pros: every ship put out by FFG is unique, and can be made viable in a competitive environment by adjusting its points. The entire strategy of the metagame is based on building a squad that is optimal from a points cost perspective.
   • Cons: You have to be very careful about figuring out a balanced point cost.
2. Add functionality to the ship.

• Pros: It creates new gameplay dynamics and is more fun.

• Cons: It may not be accurate to the Star Wars universe.

• Cons: You have to be very careful about figuring out a balanced point cost.

These two are not mutually exclusive. In both cases, you need to figure out the point cost for the ship: in case 1 for the stock ship, and in case 2, the stock ship plus the custom upgrades.

I prefer simply going with option #1 for the TIE Advanced.

If you put 4 Advanced against 4 X-Wings of the same point cost, the Advanced will lose pretty much every time, that is it's problem it will never get chosen over other ships. Dropping its points really doesn't change that. Giving it a functionality tweak that makes it viable in its class is a good solution.

You have much to learn in the ways of the force... Your answer is here:

... or consider that you could fly 5x PS2 TIE Advanced and still have 5 points left over for upgrades.

Personally I fail to see how the Advanced is best compared to the A-wing, both via in-game mechanics and rules, as well as how either ship fits within the faction that can take them.

The Advanced compares well to the A-wing from a gameplay mechanics and cost perspective, that's all. I was trying to figure out technical balance issues, not write ballads about space battles.

I still maintain that altering the points is not the way to go here. The Advanced still doesn't have a place even at 18 points, it just has no utility when it is up against the cheaper Tie or superior movement of the Int. Again, I argue that a simple upgrade in its utility brings it into a slot that makes it useful. The A-Wing has the same issue, if the A-Wing were a point cheaper I still wouldn't use it, if it had barrel roll, upping it's utility I most certainly would.

I guess my argument is simple, redressing point values doesn't make the ship a place utility does.

Several things:

1. At what point value would the TIE Advanced be worth taking in its current state for competitive play? You must be able to answer that question, along with a valid rationale as to why, in order to elevate your premise from merely being "an interesting but unsubstantiated opinion" to a constructive discussion of game mechanics based on fact.
2. Lets play devil's advocate and go with option #2, in this case simply adding System Upgrade. How many points should we now add to the TIE Advanced for that? If zero, then you agree that the ship is currently overpriced, and we are back to option #1 as being valid, we are simply haggling over the specifics. I will therefore assume an additional cost of one point, since you seem to imply that the ship is currently points balanced, and simply needs a versatility change to become relevant. This would result in a baseline squad of: PS2 TIE Advanced (22) with Advanced Sensors (3) x4. I still don't think that this is competitive.
3. The prototype A-wing has been successfully used at Worlds, in at least 1 of the Top 8 squads. Just because you don't like it, doesn't mean that it's a bad ship.

With the general idea of "more being better" that you generally see on the imperial side

...

When compared to an x-wing, I dont really see a problem with the advanced. It swaps the damage output of an x-wing for a longer life span )through the use of evade, barrel roll, and the 3 evade dice) for exactly the same point cost.

It's not just the Imperials: all of the Rebel squads in the Top 8 at Worlds had at least 4 ships (or 1 large + 2 small). It's just math, that more HPs and more dice is generally always going to have an advantage.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lanchester's_laws

The point then, in a game with all sorts of kinds of unit types, is to make sure that the relative point cost for each of the ships is balanced, otherwise all we would ever see would be 8-TIE swarms. Most of the ships are very well balanced in this regard. The TIE Advanced, however, is not.

Re: Advanced vs X-Wing: the math strongly disagrees. They are not equal. I have written several scripts to analyze a whole bunch of different scenarios. Anyone who has analyzed this, or who has even looked at the numbers and understands statistics will agree that attack dice are worth significantly more than defense dice.

Yes I know there is an upgrade. This allows you to put two. It isn't redundant, unless you think any ship with more than one shield is redundant. A tie advanced with four shields, three hull, three agility, with focus+evade+barrel roll (and it's small!) would be the most powerful defensive ship in the game -- it SHOULD be expensive.

So you are suggesting a PS2 Tempest Squadron Pilot would be more combat effective if it has 2 more shields even if it costed 29 points? Again, the math does not support this. Combat effectiveness is proportional to the square of the number of ships present, and approximately equal to the multiplication of each ship's durability times its damage output. Linearly increasing durability at significant cost is not going to work out well for you, when the problem is a geometric one.

Here's the thing, if you are only looking at the stats when comparing the Advanced vs the X-wing, it will look unfavorable. You have to remember that the Advanced has 2 additional actions over the X-wing. The Barrel Roll will give the Advanced a slight advantage over the X-wing.

Here's the thing, if you are only looking at the stats when comparing the Advanced vs the X-wing, it will look unfavorable. You have to remember that the Advanced has 2 additional actions over the X-wing. The Barrel Roll will give the Advanced a slight advantage over the X-wing.

That might be true on a 1 vs 1 basis (I still doubt it), but in the game you have more than 1 ship. If the X-Wing player knows a little bit of his game the barrel roll might save one of your ships each turn, but never all, so he will simply concentrate fire on the others. Sooner than later the superior firepower of the X-Wing will kick in and you will be outnumbered.

When I stumbled over information about a "TIE Advanced x2":

The little known successor to Darth Vader's famous fighter. It has numerous improvements over the first version, but was never produced. Several more versions were produced, up to the Advanced x7. It had boosted weapons.

I thought like: Hey sounds like a way to fix the TIE Advanced. Upgrade it to its successor with "boosted weapons", so I guess boosting the attack value to 3 would be quite right and it would also fit to the background:

What do you think about this? Is this an acceptable way to fix the TIE Advanced? Are 4 points feasible? Would ...

Maarek Stele be useful in the end?

Darth Vader became too powerful - yet too expensive?

a battle between 4 x Tempest Pilots + Title VS 4 X Red Squadron Pilots + R2 be in balance?

You got a cool idea. I just thought you should know the X2 is The TIE Avenger. X3 is the prototype TIE Interceptor, and was the Interceptor looking ships seen by Rebs before Yavin. X7 Is the TIE Defender prototype.

ref Star Wars The Essential guide to warfare page 135 paragraphs 6-9.and the "Holocron keeper."

When I stumbled over information about a "TIE Advanced x2":

The little known successor to Darth Vader's famous fighter. It has numerous improvements over the first version, but was never produced. Several more versions were produced, up to the Advanced x7. It had boosted weapons.

I thought like: Hey sounds like a way to fix the TIE Advanced. Upgrade it to its successor with "boosted weapons", so I guess boosting the attack value to 3 would be quite right and it would also fit to the background:

What do you think about this? Is this an acceptable way to fix the TIE Advanced? Are 4 points feasible? Would ...

Maarek Stele be useful in the end?

Darth Vader became too powerful - yet too expensive?

a battle between 4 x Tempest Pilots + Title VS 4 X Red Squadron Pilots + R2 be in balance?

You got a cool idea. I just thought you should know the X2 is The TIE Avenger. X3 is the prototype TIE Interceptor, and was the Interceptor looking ships seen by Rebs before Yavin. X7 Is the TIE Defender prototype.

ref Star Wars The Essential guide to warfare page 135 paragraphs 6-9.and the "Holocron keeper."

Oh cool, then this x2 Title card would be just right ^^

I've read that the Avenger is the MkI and MKII

the x1 had a fairly inefficent shield generator which drained the power which was intended for the engine, which was designed to outperform the X-Wings. the x2 got a more efficient shield generator, so there was enough energy to boost the weapons and unleash the engines full potential.

The engine lead to the Tie Interceptor, the Advanced x-series lead to the Avenger, with an even more efficient power supply and 4 laser cannons.

I don't know what is 'canon' and what is crap ... I just had the feeling the Advanced deserves more love

Here's the thing, if you are only looking at the stats when comparing the Advanced vs the X-wing, it will look unfavorable. You have to remember that the Advanced has 2 additional actions over the X-wing. The Barrel Roll will give the Advanced a slight advantage over the X-wing.

That might be true on a 1 vs 1 basis (I still doubt it), but in the game you have more than 1 ship. If the X-Wing player knows a little bit of his game the barrel roll might save one of your ships each turn, but never all, so he will simply concentrate fire on the others. Sooner than later the superior firepower of the X-Wing will kick in and you will be outnumbered.

True, if you get on ship out of arc you can simply fire at the other 3. But if you evade with the advanced it actually comes out better (if you'll be taking shots)

A focused x-wing at rng 2 will do 2.25 hits, while a advanced with evade will evade 2.12 hits, meaning Most of the time the advanced wont take damage. If the advanced then fires back it will do 1 hit. The x-wing will evade .75 hits, giving the advanced a slight advantage I damage dealt. Granted if luck shifted to the x-wing it could be a full 3 hits on the advanced, but I'm going with an avarage here. And the barrel roll will help more late game when you can roll out of arc and not have any other ships able to shoot, because there is a lack of other ships.

When I stumbled over information about a "TIE Advanced x2":

The little known successor to Darth Vader's famous fighter. It has numerous improvements over the first version, but was never produced. Several more versions were produced, up to the Advanced x7. It had boosted weapons.

I thought like: Hey sounds like a way to fix the TIE Advanced. Upgrade it to its successor with "boosted weapons", so I guess boosting the attack value to 3 would be quite right and it would also fit to the background:

What do you think about this? Is this an acceptable way to fix the TIE Advanced? Are 4 points feasible? Would ...

Maarek Stele be useful in the end?

Darth Vader became too powerful - yet too expensive?

a battle between 4 x Tempest Pilots + Title VS 4 X Red Squadron Pilots + R2 be in balance?

You got a cool idea. I just thought you should know the X2 is The TIE Avenger. X3 is the prototype TIE Interceptor, and was the Interceptor looking ships seen by Rebs before Yavin. X7 Is the TIE Defender prototype.

ref Star Wars The Essential guide to warfare page 135 paragraphs 6-9.and the "Holocron keeper."

Oh cool, then this x2 Title card would be just right ^^

I've read that the Avenger is the MkI and MKII

the x1 had a fairly inefficent shield generator which drained the power which was intended for the engine, which was designed to outperform the X-Wings. the x2 got a more efficient shield generator, so there was enough energy to boost the weapons and unleash the engines full potential.

The engine lead to the Tie Interceptor, the Advanced x-series lead to the Avenger, with an even more efficient power supply and 4 laser cannons.

I don't know what is 'canon' and what is crap ... I just had the feeling the Advanced deserves more love

Sure it is pretty close to being true to the source. I think it would be closer to the source material if it had one less hit point, the Interceptor should have 1 less also. I have already talked about how the guns should be. What you did is good though.

As for what model led to what the Avenger came before the Interceptor but it wasnt finished until after Hoth. The one and only thing it was missing this whole time was a hyperdrive. They eventually got a very good low power required hyperdrive for the Avenger.

It is actully because their protypes where around the same tme that they ended up with the same reactor "SFS I-S3a" it is ether a missprint or later on the Interceptor got the "SFS I-a3a". Etherway that is why they both can handel major mods esp the Interceptor.

At the same time it is because the Avenger was finished before the Interceptor, excluding the hyperdrive, that the Interceptor ended up with some better pieces of equipment like the best Targeting computers in the G.C.W., tied for first place with Defender, and the most advanced engines. Take in mind though Avenger and Defender are faster and have better turning radius, the SFS designed revolutionary ion stream projectors that allow the Interceptor to do tight turns and rolls unheard for a ship it size. It had steering port deflectors that can be manipulated individually.

You can think of this as a more advanced version of thrust vectoring.

refrence The Stele chronicals, the Complete Stele chronicals, SW The new essential guide to vehicles & vessels page 159 2nd paragraph, SW Complete vehicles page 166 page 196.

Here's the thing, if you are only looking at the stats when comparing the Advanced vs the X-wing, it will look unfavorable. You have to remember that the Advanced has 2 additional actions over the X-wing. The Barrel Roll will give the Advanced a slight advantage over the X-wing.

It is true that Barrel Roll and Evade are nice to have, but you are drastically overstating their usefulness if you think that it will actually give the Advanced the advantage over an X-Wing! Lets look at some numbers.

Range 2, Attacker has no focus, defender has no focus

3 attack vs 3 defense does 0.67 average damage.

2 attack vs 2 defense does 0.51 average damage.

X-Wing: 33% more damage.

Range 2, Attacker has focus, defender has no focus

3 attack dice vs 3 defense does 1.21 average damage.

2 attack dice vs 2 defense does 0.85 average damage.

X-Wing: 43% more damage.

Range 2, Attacker has no focus, defender has focus

3 attack dice vs 3 defense dice does 0.30 average damage.

2 attack dice vs 2 defense dice does 0.26 average damage.

X-Wing: 16% more damage.

Range 2, Attacker has focus, defender has focus

3 attack dice vs 3 defense dice does 0.64 average damage.

2 attack dice vs 2 defense dice does 0.47 average damage.

X-Wing: 34% more damage.

Range 3, Attacker has no focus, defender has no focus

Several things:

1. At what point value would the TIE Advanced be worth taking in its current state for competitive play? You must be able to answer that question, along with a valid rationale as to why, in order to elevate your premise from merely being "an interesting but unsubstantiated opinion" to a constructive discussion of game mechanics based on fact.
2. Lets play devil's advocate and go with option #2, in this case simply adding System Upgrade. How many points should we now add to the TIE Advanced for that? If zero, then you agree that the ship is currently overpriced, and we are back to option #1 as being valid, we are simply haggling over the specifics. I will therefore assume an additional cost of one point, since you seem to imply that the ship is currently points balanced, and simply needs a versatility change to become relevant. This would result in a baseline squad of: PS2 TIE Advanced (22) with Advanced Sensors (3) x4. I still don't think that this is competitive.
3. The prototype A-wing has been successfully used at Worlds, in at least 1 of the Top 8 squads. Just because you don't like it, doesn't mean that it's a bad ship.

<a data-ipb="nomediaparse" data-cke-saved-href=" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lanchester " href=" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lanchester " s_laws"="">1) 18 to 19 points, on par with the basic TIE interceptor. one has the offensive power, the other has the defensive durability. 19 instead of 18 to maybe account for the missile slot and higher PS, but that's it.

2) actually, since we should not have negative point values for upgrades, the lowest we can set it to is 0. Like you mentioned, even at 21 with the sensor upgrade, the TIEadvanced isnt exactly competitive either.

3) bad overall, good only for that 1 particular niche role / card combo.

It's like MTG and other tcgs. That 1 card can be really horrid, but it could be the 1 key card for a very peculiar combo, and it is that combo that wins you the game, not the card. Same thing, it is the blocking that won the player the game, not the prototype Awing. He could use pretty much any other ship to do the exact same thing, and its just so coincidental that the rebels do not have anything more disposable than a prototype Awing

the TIEadvanced has no options for customizations, unlike the Xwing, which when coupled with the general consensus that attack dice > evade dice, it really is not a true rival of the Xwing, but rather more of the Awing

The HWK is cheaper, but it is way overcosted, so maybe that's why you discount it as disposable.

Here's the thing, if you are only looking at the stats when comparing the Advanced vs the X-wing, it will look unfavorable. You have to remember that the Advanced has 2 additional actions over the X-wing. The Barrel Roll will give the Advanced a slight advantage over the X-wing.

That might be true on a 1 vs 1 basis (I still doubt it), but in the game you have more than 1 ship. If the X-Wing player knows a little bit of his game the barrel roll might save one of your ships each turn, but never all, so he will simply concentrate fire on the others. Sooner than later the superior firepower of the X-Wing will kick in and you will be outnumbered.

True, if you get on ship out of arc you can simply fire at the other 3. But if you evade with the advanced it actually comes out better (if you'll be taking shots)

A focused x-wing at rng 2 will do 2.25 hits, while a advanced with evade will evade 2.12 hits, meaning Most of the time the advanced wont take damage. If the advanced then fires back it will do 1 hit. The x-wing will evade .75 hits, giving the advanced a slight advantage I damage dealt. Granted if luck shifted to the x-wing it could be a full 3 hits on the advanced, but I'm going with an avarage here. And the barrel roll will help more late game when you can roll out of arc and not have any other ships able to shoot, because there is a lack of other ships.

If the Advanced shoots first, then it does 0.26 damage, and the X-wing has better than a 56% chance of still having its focus to use for attack.

If the X-Wing has its focus, then it does 0.49 damage.

If the X-Wing doesn't have its focus, then it does 0.21 damage.

Average X-Wing damage: roughly 0.289

Winner: X-Wing by about 11%

If the X-wing shoots first, it does 0.49 damage.

If the X-wing still has focus (better than 56% chance), the Advanced does 0.26 damage.

If the X-Wing does not have focus, the Advanced does 0.508 damage.

Average Advanced damage: 0.378

Winner: X-Wing by about 29%

Your example actually disproves your own premise. Your simplistic math is wrong.

Here's the thing, if you are only looking at the stats when comparing the Advanced vs the X-wing, it will look unfavorable. You have to remember that the Advanced has 2 additional actions over the X-wing. The Barrel Roll will give the Advanced a slight advantage over the X-wing.

It is true that Barrel Roll and Evade are nice to have, but you are drastically overstating their usefulness if you think that it will actually give the Advanced the advantage over an X-Wing! Lets look at some numbers.

*snipped stats*

And the TIE Advanced has no droid slot, which can also be quite good.

The only thing you're neglecting in the stats is the burst damage the Advanceds will put out at range 3 from missiles. I would lean toward homing missiles for general utility over Concussions, unless you can action stack with the concussions. Anyway, 2 homing missiles tend to knock out an X-wing in the first pass on my experience (Lets assume the target of the missiles is the most expensive X-wing), meaning 4x Advanced's vs 3x X-Wings, and one of those X-Wings is likely without shields or even damaged from the other homing missile. Now the Advanceds can play pure defense and either barrel roll out of arcs, or just plain run evade if there is any chance an X-Wing is going to get shots on them. Once they take out the 2nd X-Wing pure hit points should give the advantage to the Advanceds.

From my experience, in a game of Tie advanced vs X-Wing, the Advanceds all about the effectiveness of that burst damage from the missiles. Score 4 hits with each missile and knock out 2 X-wings by turn 3 and the Advanceds win. Have a poor set of rolls on those missiles and the X-Wings will win.

Thought it about time I joined in and probably repeated a load of stuff...

I think we can all agree that whether the ship is over costed or not FFG are extremely unlikely to ever adjust its cost so we can stop talking about that can't we..

which only leaves creating new pilots that may not fit the point scale they already used to make them but may at least add some options that see play.

or they give us an upgrade like the imperial aces.

I cannot stress how much I want to fly Vader with advanced sensors but I may honestly be happy with a Fire control system, at least it helps to fire close range missiles with a lock + focus, it also helps with dogfighting.

Maybe this could even be at a slightly different cost /value

Advanced Tie specific FCS costing 1 point, I don't know just spit balling

I do not know what the star wars cannon is on the ordinance but what if we got a proton torp slot for the advanced.

Certainly I would feel a little happier with Maarek Steele if I could fire a Proton Torp.

not to mention Vader with an APT, but that is sort of where the plan falls apart

Sienar Test Pilot

TIE Advanced

PS1

20pts

...comments? (sorry if it was suggested already, haven't seen it)

Sienar Test Pilot

TIE Advanced

PS1

20pts

...comments? (sorry if it was suggested already, haven't seen it)

I don't see how that fixes the issue of Advanced being overcosted. You are just introducing another pilot that is overcosted for what it brings to the table.

I think we can all agree that whether the ship is over costed or not FFG are extremely unlikely to ever adjust its cost so we can stop talking about that can't we..

They have done similar in the past with other games. So nothing is impossible.

What if all the base pilots got an EPS slot? Would you use them then? (or a PS 3, PS 5 {new pilots} that cost 21 and 23 respectively, all with EPS)