What is the INTENDED role of the advanced? And what fix would serve best to archive its role?

Maybe a combination of giving the non-uniques an elite upgrade slot (just like the X-Wings have a droid-slot), then we make the advanced cheaper by one point and the we add a system upgrade slot. If its role is to be 'better' then other starfighters, then this would be the solution....

Just making it 2 points cheaper don't make the Advance better - you may add concussion missiles on your squad of 4 storms - this would make them stronger. But in the end its not much of a difference.

I think a system upgrade slot would serve best, maybe together with a discount of 1 point.

Well being a ship that can mount ordnance, but also is a capable dogfighter after launch is a place for them. The issue is that they are just too expensive to be a viable alternative to a Bomber in an ordnance list.

Never to be seen to not rise to the challenge, we have a local tourney soon and I will fly this puppy.

36 points

Darth Vader

Homing Missiles, Swarm Tactics

35 points

Maarek Stele

Homing Missiles, Push the Limit

28 points

Storm Squadron Pilot

Homing Missiles

Meanwhile, I am going to drop Maarek to a Storm and sort a three Advanced squad with Advanced Sensors for testing purposes.

Just following this thread, and I'm wondering if the advanced really needs to be fixed a all. Perhaps the problem isn't with the ship at all, but with the meta and play style of the typical imperial player. With the general idea of "more being better" that you generally see on the imperial side, the advanced seems to not fit, as well as it fairs badly when faced with swarms of imperial TIE fighters because of its 2 attack. When compared to an x-wing, I dont really see a problem with the advanced. It swaps the damage output of an x-wing for a longer life span )through the use of evade, barrel roll, and the 3 evade dice) for exactly the same point cost. In addition to this I believe it has a better movement diel (though not having it on me I can't say for sure). Sure x-wings get a droid spot, but missiles give you more, and better options then torps. So what you end up getting for the same price as a rookie x-wing, one of the most use ships in the game, is a fighter that will stay around longer, with a lower damage output. A perfect mid or late game ship when backed with missile alpha strikes, or against any of the one or two evade dice ships out there.

Sure with the exception of vader the named poppers aren't much to look at, but I think the basic tempest tie advanced has simply gotten a bad rep because of the popularity of to swarms and the manor in which most imperials think about listbuilding

Yes I know there is an upgrade. This allows you to put two. It isn't redundant, unless you think any ship with more than one shield is redundant. A tie advanced with four shields, three hull, three agility, with focus+evade+barrel roll (and it's small!) would be the most powerful defensive ship in the game -- it SHOULD be expensive.

If the main advantage of tie advanced over ties is the shields, why not a title that reflects that?

Title: Tie Advanced X2, Cost 4: Add one shield.

You know, there is a generic upgrade card that can already do that? That would be redundant unless you wanted to put two mods on the ship, which is generally not cost effective.

Perhaps the problem isn't with the ship at all, but with the meta and play style of the typical imperial player. With the general idea of "more being better" that you generally see on the imperial side, the advanced seems to not fit, as well as it fairs badly when faced with swarms of imperial TIE fighters because of its 2 attack.

When compared to an x-wing, I dont really see a problem with the advanced. It swaps the damage output of an x-wing for a longer life span )through the use of evade, barrel roll, and the 3 evade dice) for exactly the same point cos t. In addition to this I believe it has a better movement diel (though not having it on me I can't say for sure). Sure x-wings get a droid spot, but missiles give you more, and better options then torps. So what you end up getting for the same price as a rookie x-wing, one of the most use ships in the game, is a fighter that will stay around longer, with a lower damage output.

A perfect mid or late game ship when backed with missile alpha strikes, or against any of the one or two evade dice ships out there.

"but I think the basic tempest tie advanced has simply gotten a bad rep because of the popularity of to swarms and the manor in which most imperials think about list building"

Yes.

Yes.

Yes.

Yes!

Oh goodness, thank you for explaining this in words i couldn't think of. The imperials general play style is just so much different to the Advanced… They are about maneuverability, speed, strength in numbers, or potent - deadly offense. The Advanced plays much more like a rebel ship that can survive far better. Yea, it can't put down the damage in the short term like a rebel ship, but if you're able to keep it alive through 'Evade' and Barrel Roll and such, then you're ensured more shots later - often with a TL against a 2 or 1 defense ship. This is less accepted in the Tournaments as well because it's a ship that will stick around a long time, and those games are timed...

Maybe if they just got EPS (the generics, or a new card in a set that's a PS3 with EPS for 22 or something)…i think that would make them extremely playable…like elite, hard to kill ships, that will push down damage when they need to (Focus+TL is good against almost all ships)

Perhaps the problem isn't with the ship at all, but with the meta and play style of the typical imperial player. With the general idea of "more being better" that you generally see on the imperial side, the advanced seems to not fit, as well as it fairs badly when faced with swarms of imperial TIE fighters because of its 2 attack.

When compared to an x-wing, I dont really see a problem with the advanced. It swaps the damage output of an x-wing for a longer life span )through the use of evade, barrel roll, and the 3 evade dice) for exactly the same point cos t. In addition to this I believe it has a better movement diel (though not having it on me I can't say for sure). Sure x-wings get a droid spot, but missiles give you more, and better options then torps. So what you end up getting for the same price as a rookie x-wing, one of the most use ships in the game, is a fighter that will stay around longer, with a lower damage output.

A perfect mid or late game ship when backed with missile alpha strikes, or against any of the one or two evade dice ships out there.

"but I think the basic tempest tie advanced has simply gotten a bad rep because of the popularity of to swarms and the manor in which most imperials think about list building"

Yes.

Yes.

Yes.

Yes!

Oh goodness, thank you for explaining this in words i couldn't think of. The imperials general play style is just so much different to the Advanced… They are about maneuverability, speed, strength in numbers, or potent - deadly offense. The Advanced plays much more like a rebel ship that can survive far better. Yea, it can't put down the damage in the short term like a rebel ship, but if you're able to keep it alive through 'Evade' and Barrel Roll and such, then you're ensured more shots later - often with a TL against a 2 or 1 defense ship. This is less accepted in the Tournaments as well because it's a ship that will stick around a long time, and those games are timed...

Maybe if they just got EPS (the generics, or a new card in a set that's a PS3 with EPS for 22 or something)…i think that would make them extremely playable…like elite, hard to kill ships, that will push down damage when they need to (Focus+TL is good against almost all ships)

But even then I still feel they are a point or two more than they should be. I would consider them on par with the A-Wing, they have an extra Hull but the A-Wing has a FAR better dial (I would say that Barrel Roll and Boost are similar in level of effect), yet X1s are 3 points more.

Note that also the Green get +2 PS and an EPT for 2points.. the Storm Squadron gets +2 PS...

TBH I don't think anyone would have any issue with them if the Tempest was 18, the Storm 20 with EPT... But at 21 for the Tempest and 23 for the Storm (with not EPT) you are heavily overpaying for what they bring to the table.

Much like the interceptor, they just don't fit the meta. If you we're facing more Y and A wings it would likely see play. We're not be a use those ships are also not playing well. It can't outfly swarms or Bwings and it can't outshoot the big ships. Until there is a big meta shift, it isn't viable.

I expect packs similar to Imperial Aces for both of those other ships and maybe for the advanced someday. Until something like that happens we're just not going to see them in significant numbers.

Much like the interceptor, they just don't fit the meta. If you we're facing more Y and A wings it would likely see play. We're not be a use those ships are also not playing well. It can't outfly swarms or Bwings and it can't outshoot the big ships. Until there is a big meta shift, it isn't viable.

I expect packs similar to Imperial Aces for both of those other ships and maybe for the advanced someday. Until something like that happens we're just not going to see them in significant numbers.

I really don't think it's a Meta thing, I really think they are just 2 or even 3 points more expensive than they should be.

Lets say you had a ship with Attack 2, Defence 3, Hull 2, Shields 2 and a fairly basic dial and you had the choice of

Making the Dial the BEST in the game OR an extra Hull

Boost OR Barrel Roll

That's the choice you are making between an A-Wing and a X1. I would probably choose the Dial and the Boost out of those options, which is what the A-Wing gets. Yet the X1 is 3 points more expensive.

The Advanced needs more love. It is very unlikely that the costs will be cut down, since this is no computer game you can balance with a patch. I really hope for a System Upgrade some day. But its also unlikely that there will be an 'Advanced Aces'

What do you expect? Advanced in a different color? And even then you will get 2 new Advanced and 2 upgrade cards of some kind ... and your old Advanced? ... well ... yeah ... no upgrade card left for the old ones.

If you put 4 Advanced against 4 X-Wings of the same point cost, the Advanced will lose pretty much every time, that is it's problem it will never get chosen over other ships. Dropping its points really doesn't change that. Giving it a functionality tweak that makes it viable in its class is a good solution.

If you put 4 Advanced against 4 X-Wings of the same point cost, the Advanced will lose pretty much every time, that is it's problem it will never get chosen over other ships. Dropping its points really doesn't change that. Giving it a functionality tweak that makes it viable in its class is a good solution.

Dropping the costs would at least allow to get better missiles. Imagine 4 x Storm with Homing Missiles. I think this squad could actually beat 4 X-Wings ... if you don't **** up the rolls for the missiles ...

Yep functionally I don't see any issues with them. The problem they are vastly over-pointed. 4 of them with missiles would not be an awful squad at 100pts.

And yet, 3 pts is ironically what Hull Upgrade costs...

I like the Advanced. It is a personal favorite ship of mine. I just don't think there is enough support for it right now. It is perfectly valid to compare an A-wing to the Advanced. But you truthfully aren't choosing between the two ships. If you are thinking of running the Advanced, you are looking an Imperial squad, with all the options available to them. And sadly, there isn't much synergy to be had for the kind of ship the Advanced is. Imperials tend to lean toward high numbers, or overwhelming power.

I do expect them to get some new stuff ala Aces pack. I'm sure the EU ships will be great fun, but I think FFG would be foolish to not keep supporting the classic, movie ships.

I guess the point I'm trying to make is that the ship needs to be fixed within its role, not made a slightly more expensive bomber.

I guess the point I'm trying to make is that the ship needs to be fixed within its role, not made a slightly more expensive bomber.

Well what role do you think it should have? It's not a slightly more expensive bomber it's a missile boat which can survive and maneuver well once it missile is fired off, that makes it significantly different from a Bomber. Giving it a System Upgrade wouldn't change that.

And yet, 3 pts is ironically what Hull Upgrade costs...

And how much would you be willing to pay to upgrade a ship to the A-Wings Dial? I would say they were comparable.

And sadly, there isn't much synergy to be had for the kind of ship the Advanced is. Imperials tend to lean toward high numbers, or overwhelming power.

There is no reason this has to be the case. I've been happily running loaded up Bombers and a Lambda and it works, and I wouldn't say that list is either overwhelming power or high numbers. The problem is the X1 is simply not worth it's points. I want to like it, but whenever I try to slip it into a squad it just doesn't fit well. If I try to load it up with missiles it comes to far too many points, and if I'm dogfighting it just can't compare to an Interceptor which is far cheaper.

The Advanced was not designed as a missile boat anymore than the X-Wing was designed to be a torpedo boat. They are both heavy weight dog fighters. Sure they can carry ordinance, but if you drop it's cost then that will become its primary role and not make it work for what it was built to do, dog fight. System Upgrades enhance its dog fighting role. If I want to shoot missiles and dog fight second surely we have the bomber for that?

I'm not trying to be obtuse, just get one of the most iconic ships in the canon to work in its role as a counter to the X-Wing. If it was supposed to be a missile boat Vader would have just put a rocket up Luke's tailpipe.....

Personally I fail to see how the Advanced is best compared to the A-wing, both via in-game mechanics and rules, as well as how either ship fits within the faction that can take them.

The A-wing is the lightest armored ship in its faction, as well as the fastest and most mobil. In addition is has one of the lowest attack values of its faction.

The TIE Advanced is the heaviest armored small ship the Imperials have, as well as having basic movement

Really the comparison that should be made is between the Advanced and the X-wing. The movement dials are pretty much the same, a difference of 2 moves.

They have the same hull and shields.

They are the same point value.

The share an inverse of attack and evade values.

They can both take an ordnance option (different ordnance to be sure, but still ordnance)
The x-wing can take a droid, the Advanced has evade and barrel roll actions.

I fail to see how the advanced is worth 1-3 points (depending on who's talking) less then an x-wing.

Yes, I agree that in a timed turny style game the advanced may suffer simply because it seems to rely on attrition to win it's games, while the majority of the imperial ships would prefer to massively outgun the enemy as soon as possible, but that seems to me to be a problem with the turny rules, not the Advanced itself.

Also, I fail to see how " 4 Advanced against 4 X-Wings of the same point cost' will beat the advanced "pretty much every time"

The advanced has more of a chance to be out of fire arcs (due to barrel roll), and with judicious use of evade when you can't barrel roll out of the fire arc most damage can be mitigated. In return, the two attack dice doesn't seem all that low when the x-wing is rolling only 2 evade. If the advanced were to run 4 concussion missiles as well (with the point increase on the x-wings as well) I think they would stand an even better chance of winning out.

I think the advanced is simply a more tactical fighter then other. It requires a more thoughtful use of actions, as well as the understanding that you won't be one shotting anything, you have to play the long game and whittle the enemy ships down, while relying on your evade and barrel roll action to see you though incoming fire.

The Advanced was not designed as a missile boat anymore than the X-Wing was designed to be a torpedo boat. They are both heavy weight dog fighters. Sure they can carry ordinance, but if you drop it's cost then that will become its primary role and not make it work for what it was built to do, dog fight. System Upgrades enhance its dog fighting role. If I want to shoot missiles and dog fight second surely we have the bomber for that?

I'm not trying to be obtuse, just get one of the most iconic ships in the canon to work in its role as a counter to the X-Wing. If it was supposed to be a missile boat Vader would have just put a rocket up Luke's tailpipe.....

Lowering it's cost would make it much more viable in this role too. at 18pts you could fit 5 of them in a 100pt force and they would all be much more survivable than a standard TIE. Adding a System Upgrade wouldn't fix the fundamental issue that they are overcosted. A ship with Advanced Sensors is still the same overcosted ship, but now you have added another 3pts to it's cost.

I'm not against them having System Upgrades. I just don't think it will fix them.

I have, I think exhausted my arguments now and will be repeating myself going forwards. I am going to fly my Advanced fighters next tourney minus missiles as true fighters and we'll see.

Here is the ' Pete Proves His Point' list (that is tongue in cheek folks)

31 points

Darth Vader

Swarm Tactics

23 points

Storm Squadron Pilot #1

23 points

Storm Squadron Pilot #2

23 points

Storm Squadron Pilot #3

deadlyflorist

Really the comparison that should be made is between the Advanced and the X-wing. The movement dials are pretty much the same, a difference of 2 moves.

They have the same hull and shields.

They are the same point value.

The share an inverse of attack and evade values.

They can both take an ordnance option (different ordnance to be sure, but still ordnance)
The x-wing can take a droid, the Advanced has evade and barrel roll actions.

I see your point, and on the first glance it seems right. Only, the inversion of attack and evade makes a great difference. An evade die is far less valuable compared to an attack die; you have a lower chance to get a success with the agility roll; and while a successful attack might remove the threat (which is the best defense absolutely) a successful evade gets you another round.

The evade ability might somewhat balance that, but you sacrifice your action for that...

Even if a player is not aware of that fact you somehow have a gut feeling after some games that something is not right with the Advanced compared to a X-Wing.

I do find it funny that people are lamenting about the A-wing's "superiority", while that ship has similar issues in Rebel builds. I don't see an errata to lower their point cost ever happening. Outside of Vader, they sadly do not play very well with other ships.

I do not think the A vs Advanced is a comparison, they fulfill different roles.

The X is the Advanced Ties counterpart.

I have, I think exhausted my arguments now and will be repeating myself going forwards. I am going to fly my Advanced fighters next tourney minus missiles as true fighters and we'll see.

Here is the ' Pete Proves His Point' list (that is tongue in cheek folks)

31 points

Darth Vader

Swarm Tactics

23 points

Storm Squadron Pilot #1

23 points

Storm Squadron Pilot #2

23 points

Storm Squadron Pilot #3

I'd even look into dropping one of the Storms, and adding engine upgrades and a missile to each of them.. that kind of maneuvering ability has got to be an asset..

Will have to try it when I can get in another game.. not sure the solo rules will allow me to make the most advantage of it

I do not think the A vs Advanced is a comparison, they fulfill different roles.

The X is the Advanced Ties counterpart.

I'm not arguing that this shouldn't be the case.

But gameplaywise, the Advanced doesn't play like that. An X-Wing can do an awful lot more damage. The X1 is far more defensive, and due to the low attack has far less impact. The Advanced plays more like an A-Wing, which also has these traits, high defense, low impact. Both are considered poor for similar reasons, while you can still get a reasonable amount of play out of the A-Wing, the Advanced does a similar thing but is more expensive for no real boost in power level.