I sent over this message to FFG to see if they had any interest in our idea.

Dear Fantasy Flight,

Let me start by saying that your X-Wing game is one of the best games I have ever played and I have been miniature gaming for 31 years.

I was writing to you to propose an idea for the Tie Advanced ship. As of now it gets virtually no usage, which is a real shame both because it is an iconic ship and because you guys aren't making money selling them. (Not good for business that)

There has been a solid discussion on allowing the Tie Advanced to use the System Upgrade cards. This does not require any major game changes and would merely need an errata on your support page. This would help the community and help you sell ships, B-Wings and Shuttles to probably so people could have the needed cards.

The community would love to hear your thoughts on this.

Kind Regards Pete

You wanted it, you get it.

Credit goes to Duraham, for his creative yet simple and brilliant idea.

Sorry to disappoint, but i got the idea from someone else at BGG

The TIE Advanced was LESS maneuverable than a standard TIE Fighter, not more, so I have a hard time seeing advanced sensors on a TIE Advanced.

I'm not sure why how maneuverable a ship is, has any effect on how well the sensors work. If anything a less nimble ship would want better sensors to make up for it.

Personally, I would just adjust the cost of the ship so it is more balanced

Changing the cost of a ship is a pretty major deal. Would require some method of getting new cards to everyone who bought it, with the updated price. Errata wouldn't cut it IMO.

Advanced Sensors significantly increases a ship's maneuverability, if it has barrel roll. The finals with Paul's Biggs Walks the Dogs squad is a good example of this.

It's also a big deal to have a ship's cost be unbalanced. Choose your poison - it was just my 2 cents.

Maneuverability is pegged to the ship's dial and other actions, namely boost roll evade. Having the ability to use any of those before moving is more of a side effect of the game mechanics than any actual maneuverability improvements

You dont see the shuttle suddenly becoming more maneuverable after you slap on advanced sensors. If you gave it an engine upgrade, it does become more maneuverable. If you gave it both, theres no real change to its maneuverability, but thanks to the limitations of the game engine, there is a minor difference. Like how you could boost or roll after getting ionized, wtf?

You cannot use Advanced Sensors if ionized. The card states "before you reveal your maneuver" if ionized you do not reveal a maneuver, hence no using Advanced Sensors.

For the purposes of this game, I am considering "maneuverability" to be defined as a ship's ability to move around on the board. In this game, it is determined by the dial, and some actions or upgrades such as boost, barrel roll, daredevil, etc. Evade doesn't count, I'm not sure why you lumped that one in, unless you define "maneuverability" in some other way.

Having the ability to use any of those before moving is more of a side effect of the game mechanics than any actual maneuverability improvements

I think you are creating a semantics difference where there is none in reality. It's also an incorrect statement. If you can boost/barrel roll/etc before or after resolving the dial, then the number of movement permutations significantly increases. More movement permutations equals more maneuverability. See: Paul's blog post detailing various uses for advanced sensors on B-Wings.

So you are saying that by giving a ship (that has barrel roll or engine boost) advanced sensors, it becomes more maneuverable. I agree. However, this contradicts what you said in your previous sentence, where such a scenario would not result in "any actual maneuverability improvement".

Thanks Pete!

MajorJuggler, you keep stating that the Tie Advanced is overcosted by far. And I got the feeling that you dislike the ideas discussed here. So why you don't tell us how you would fix the Tie Advanced? Just my 2 cents.

You wanted it, you get it.

Credit goes to Duraham, for his creative yet simple and brilliant idea.

Sorry to disappoint, but i got the idea from someone else at BGG

In THIS forum, credit goes to you. Basta.

The Advanced is not over costed in my opinion, it comes out the same as an x-wing, which for it's stats is about right. It just doesn't have utility in an Empire list like the X-Wing does in the rebel list. If you dropped it to 18 points it still doesn't make it a better ship. Sure, you could have 5 in a list, but that list is still not very playable it is just more durable. The Tie Adv is supposed to be one of the best ships around in the Empire during this time period. Having access to the systems upgrade will go a long way to making it that in the game.

As already discussed, adding 1 attack die overpowers it, reducing cost just makes it cheaper, but no better, System upgrades make a usable compromise.

"The target tracking system was also more sophisticated than the already formidable advanced targeting system on standard TIE craft, used to overcome the extremely powerful electronic jamming used by all combat craft to defeat target lock in battle. For best performance, the targeting system of the TIE Advanced x1 required frequent adjustment in combat."

...

I find this one interesting .. have you ever asked yourself why Vader constantly rotate the buttons on the controls? ^^

The Advanced is not over costed in my opinion, it comes out the same as an x-wing, which for it's stats is about right. It just doesn't have utility in an Empire list like the X-Wing does in the rebel list. If you dropped it to 18 points it still doesn't make it a better ship. Sure, you could have 5 in a list, but that list is still not very playable it is just more durable. The Tie Adv is supposed to be one of the best ships around in the Empire during this time period. Having access to the systems upgrade will go a long way to making it that in the game.

As already discussed, adding 1 attack die overpowers it, reducing cost just makes it cheaper, but no better, System upgrades make a usable compromise.

With sublte exceptions the TIE advanced is a TIE Fighter + a little more, namely shields, target lock, and missile upgrades. The Target Lock ability alone is a big deal. Since most rebel ships have 2 (or few agility dice) 2 attack dice isn't that bad, throw on a target lock and the TIE Advanced can hit just about all of them almost all of the time. The TIE Advanced really only struggles with its firepower when you are fighting other imperials or A-Wings. And in that case unless you are fighting Interceptors they are going to have the same problem back at you (more so with TIEs becasue they don't have target locks)

I can not speak to what the TIE Advanced was supposed to be (from out of game sources) I don't think that is should match anything from the TIE Fighter or X-wing Computer game. Those builds wouldn't work in this sort of game. I also don't care much about wookiepedia or EU stuff. If Episodes I-III taught me anything it was that I had a better understanding (at least for me) than Lucas did.

It is true that you don't see the TIE Advanced swarm, but I don't think you ever should see TIE Advanced swarms, it is a proto-type / elite only fighter.

I agree, no Adv swarm, it is the Empires mid range fighter, like the x-wing. Hence why a small increase in capability would make it a very viable ship.

You wanted it, you get it.

Credit goes to Duraham, for his creative yet simple and brilliant idea.

Sorry to disappoint, but i got the idea from someone else at BGG

In THIS forum, credit goes to you. Basta.

In his thread maybe...

I posted a bunch of titles for the advanced, ywing, and awing in a thread awhile ago and one of the x# titles was advanced sensors. Someone not using a phone to post should pull those ideas over here.

Another one I thought of was a targeting computer adjustment. You don't get the extra die at range 1, you get it at range 2. Might be a cheap and interesting upgrade. I bet I take about 15-20% more shots at range 2 anyway... Or at least spend that amount of time and energy trying to get into range 1

"The target tracking system was also more sophisticated than the already formidable advanced targeting system on standard TIE craft, used to overcome the extremely powerful electronic jamming used by all combat craft to defeat target lock in battle. For best performance, the targeting system of the TIE Advanced x1 required frequent adjustment in combat."

...

I find this one interesting .. have you ever asked yourself why Vader constantly rotate the buttons on the controls? ^^

That explains it! Either that or he's just bored and has nothing interesting to do with his second action.

"The TIE Advanced proved effective in battle because it could endure numerous direct hits. The pilot survival rate was also greatly increased by the addition of a hyperdrive system, allowing the ship to flee hopeless battles. Despite the starfighter’s success, the Empire decided not to order the TIE Advanced x1 in large quantities, claiming that the vehicles were far too costly. However, many Navy strategists theorized that Imperial officers feared a starfighter with a hyperdrive would give Imperial bureaucrats an excuse to deny requests for new capital starships. Unconcerned with the Empire’s rejection of the TIE Advanced, Sienar designers simply incorporated the ship’s best qualities into the TIE Interceptor. By the Battle of Endor, Sienar had ceased producing the TIE Advanced x1."

... or the officials don't want to give their pilots the option to flee from battle. It is to win or to die - these are the options of an imperial pilot.

Thats why you'll never see the Advanced in large numbers.

That explains it! Either that or he's just bored and has nothing interesting to do with his second action.

vader is just trying to reset the clock to daylight savings time...

If the main advantage of tie advanced over ties is the shields, why not a title that reflects that?

Title: Tie Advanced X2, Cost 4: Add one shield.

If the main advantage of tie advanced over ties is the shields, why not a title that reflects that?

Title: Tie Advanced X2, Cost 4: Add one shield.

You know, there is a generic upgrade card that can already do that? That would be redundant unless you wanted to put two mods on the ship, which is generally not cost effective.

Let's do a quick analysis of 3 attack dice ships. Most of them have a heavy down side.

Ion turret - (it's not a ship, but I thought I would put it in) yes it has all it's ionization coolness, but it never does more than 1 damage.

B-wing - Only one agility makes them die pretty fast to consistent attack. pretty expensive

YT-1300 - (named pilots only) super expensive also only one agility.

TIE Interceptor - glass cannon, only 3 attack dice ship that can be one-shot. At 18 points min, pretty expensive for an Imperial ship.

FireSpray - Quite expensive.

X-wing - I don't actually see any weakness in the X-wing. But then the game is called "X-Wing" I think it is okay that it is an awesome ship. Though some may call it expensive.

Heretic! You have failed to mention the Great White Space Bison! Your ignorance has angered the Most Holy Space Cow! Your dreams shall be haunted by flying mystical albino space manatees until you acknowledge the greatness of the Pale One!

I would simply reduce the cost of the TIE Advanced so it is balanced. I haven't worked out the exact number, but obviously at least one point and possible two across the board. Off the top of my head, you can take a PS1 A-wing at 17 points, add a hull upgrade, add 1 point to get to PS2, and you have a ship that's 21 points and superior to the TIE Advanced. Given that upgrades are slightly over-costed (presumably intentionally), the A-wing has a much better dial and boost, and that the A-wing itself is probably overcosted by a point, you're looking at a minimum of -2 point adjustment for the TIE Advanced. I would consider upping Vader's pilot cost by one since it is so good, so he could end up being -1 net. These are just rough numbers, I would like to do some more numerical attack / defense analysis on it with my scripts, but I am busy working on other things (thesis), so it's a low priority.

If you are OK with adding things that fundamentally change how the ship plays, then go for it. I was just trying to point out that Advanced Sensors, which would be undeniably cool to play with, might not be true to the "historic" version of the TIE Advanced. If you don't mind, or disagree, then no big deal - go for it. Well, I have boring balance suggestions in this case, so it's all personal preference.

"The target tracking system was also more sophisticated than the already formidable advanced targeting system on standard TIE craft, used to overcome the extremely powerful electronic jamming used by all combat craft to defeat target lock in battle. For best performance, the targeting system of the TIE Advanced x1 required frequent adjustment in combat."

...

I find this one interesting .. have you ever asked yourself why Vader constantly rotate the buttons on the controls? ^^

That explains it! Either that or he's just bored and has nothing interesting to do with his second action.

Ha ha ha ha, that's the funniest thing I have read on these forums for a while.

Thanks for your thoughts, Juggler. It's all about figures.

I don't think the A-Wing is overpriced ... I would say it's underpriced compared to the Advanced.

But ok, it is an approach to take the most identical ship and make comparisons.

So the cheapest A-Wing is 17. If I punch the A-Wing's numbers into the calculation matrix which works quite well for other ships, I'll get a 24! While I get a 21 for the cheapest Advanced, which is exactly what we have.

Lets focus on the comparison.

We levy the ps of the A-Wing up to 2: 18 points

Now we add one hull value. A 'natural' hull value goes for one point, but since we have defence 3 ships, lets say it makes sense to go for 2 points: 20 points

Now the stats are almost equal - assunimg that barrel and boost have the same value.

The biggest problem we have is the dial. Assuming the Advanced' dial is worth 1 point and the A-Wings' 3 points, we need to lover the costs by 2 points: 18 points.

Lets sum things up:

Tempest Squadron Pilot: 18 Points

Storm Squadron Pilot: 20 Points

Maarek Stele: 24 Points

Darth Vader: 27 Points (+1 for Vaders' ability)

Would this be acceptable? Is this even the better way to 'fix' the Advanced? Would Maarek see action at last? Would the Rebels rebel against this new Advanced? Would 5 x Strom be OP?

I am OK with the prototype A-Wing being 17 points, since it was used in a top 8 squad, and is already pretty cheap. It is mostly the higher PS A-Wings that I have an issue with. PS6 and PS8 A-Wings are way overcosted, especially when you look at it as a percentage increase rather than a linear increase.

Without doing some hardcore battle simulation analysis, I would drop the TIE Advanced by 2 points, and Vader by only 1 point. From off-the-cuff comparison with the A-Wing, the Advanced should obviously cost 2 less, so I would start there. 3 points is probably a bit too much and might certainly risk breaking balance the other way, so I would start by sticking with just 2 points. So, exactly what you have, plus one point.

PS2 Tempest: 19

PS 4 Storm: 21

PS 7 Maarek: 25

PS 9 Vader: 28

Maarek's cost is about in line here, as named ships with an EPT tend to cost +1 point. But I would find a way to tweak his ability a little too.

I still maintain that altering the points is not the way to go here. The Advanced still doesn't have a place even at 18 points, it just has no utility when it is up against the cheaper Tie or superior movement of the Int. Again, I argue that a simple upgrade in its utility brings it into a slot that makes it useful. The A-Wing has the same issue, if the A-Wing were a point cheaper I still wouldn't use it, if it had barrel roll, upping it's utility I most certainly would.

I guess my argument is simple, redressing point values doesn't make the ship a place utility does.

I don't think the A-Wings are unusable at their current points, it works well missile boat if properly supported. If the Advanced was cheaper it would fill a similar slot. At the moment it doesn't compare favourably against Bomber, if it was lowered a tiny bit I could see myself running them with Jonus or Jendon.