On thinking about it, I'm not really a huge fan of a free FCS on the advanced. It is very out of character for the rest of the ships and modifications in the game. I'd actually suggest something like this:

Advanced Targeting Computer: Tie Advanced Only (or, potentially Imperial Small based only)

Modification, 1 point

When this ship takes a TARGET LOCK action, it also gains a FOCUS token.

This modification would be similar, yet more powerful than the FCS, though it would cost a point. In general, it would provide the non named Tie Advanced with a limited version of Push the Limits. It doesn't really break Vader any more than he already is, as vader would have to choose between Advanced Targeting Computer and Engine Upgrade. The biggest benefit, in my eyes, is that it would follow the standards set by other upgrade cards and ships a lot more than giving the Advanced an existing card for free.

Ouch - way to make missiles rather OP...

I'm not sure OP.. definitely much easier to make them worth their points, missiles are a bit of a pain to get the most out of. If I ever run ordnace, I normally need at least one ship who is designed to give the carriers a token of some kind to make the list work.

Ouch - way to make missiles rather OP...

Its actually the same point cost as a Green Squadron w/ Push the Limits, and the PtL Green Squadron is still a better ship.... and the general forum opinion of the Green Squadron is its bad.

I'm not seeing FCS + Cluster as OP but certainly powerful and a pretty straight forward go to combo. I'm going to test it more today!

After all we do know the targeting system was a prototype, hence Vader constantly playing with the controls

no... it has been established that since his wingmen were giving him the "protect" action during the trench run and he couldn't barrel roll in the trench, he had nothing better to do with his second action.

I'm not sure OP.. definitely much easier to make them worth their points, missiles are a bit of a pain to get the most out of. If I ever run ordnace, I normally need at least one ship who is designed to give the carriers a token of some kind to make the list work.

I sort of find that true with almost all upgrades. Not that you need another ship to give out tokens, but upgrades IMO need to be used to get some sort of synergy. Fell with PTL is grear because Fell has so many green maneuvers.

You would only put swarm tactics on ship with a really high PS.

I like Expert Handling on the Firespray because of the Large base + the rear firing arc.

The only upgrades that I think are pretty much always good tend to be limited severely on what ships you can put them on.

Advanced Sensors currently have to be put on B-wings or Shuttles. Who wouldn't want AS on an X-wing or an A-wing.

If you really want to fix the TIE Advanced all it really needs is some good mid-PS pilots with good abilities.

Vader is awesome as is and I will fight anyone who says otherwise. And Vader will kill them.

Tempest and Storm squadron are not super good, but they make solid light missile ships, especially backed up with Jonus or something else that makes the missiles a bit better.

The only thing about the TIE advanced that I think needs improvement in Marrek. For two points less than Vader he just is more than 2 points worse. Every time I ever built a list with Marrek (whether I ended playing it or not) I ended up wanting to find 2 points somewhere and changing him to Vader.

I think the TL+focus is a bit much for 1pt (compared to a offensive PTL, where it is an elite talent, 3pts, and causes stress). This would also kinda make a mockery of Tie Bombers for an alpha strike (which doesn't help balance).

I do like the FCS on the Tie advanced title. Perhaps it should be 1pt in order to make you skip a missile on one of the Tie Advanced in a 100pt list. Not sure getting a pretty nice buff for free would be best (even if the ship is overcosted).

Just ran 4x FCS version Tempest + Clusters Vs. Roark and BBX. Even with clusters providing solid alpha they just couldn't finish anything off and since the rebel {scum} had init they were shooting first. I'm thinking 4 isn't the way to go.

FCS helps essentially ensure a single round with double attack and TL on that second attack. Evade or barrel roll out of arcs is a good defense... try staying at range 3 after you fire off the clusters so you get 4 evade dice. Much better but I still don't think running 4 is what you want to do.

This is why I like FCS on them, the object is not to make them the new super ship, it is to make them usable. FCS does that without breaking them. Even 4 with missiles doesn't become overpowered.

I really like the creativity behind some of the suggestions here. The 'PtL light' is not bad - but using concussions would really be pain in the ass - no need for Jonus.

I tried to find different solutions for myself ... but i came back to the FCS every time. Its just an elegant and simple, yet effective solution. No need to change the pilot cards - which i gues would not be happen anyway.

It could just be realized by a modification upgrade card or a title card or just by an errata / rule card.

I am with RealStarKiller. FCS in general really isn't breaking the T/A here. Look at the usage on a B-Wing and I'm not hearing anyone shouting broken on them :-)

I think the Issue of Disagreement comes down to FCS + Cluster Missiles.

With the way Both Cards are worded Clusters make 2 Attacks, FCS grants TL after an Attack.

The combination of the 2 makes your Second Attack from your Cluster Missile a "Homing Missile Shot" minus the "cannot spend evade tokens" part.

IF B-Wings had access to Cluster Missiles + FCS. or a Torpedo Equivalent of Cluster then people would be shouting "broken! OP!" because the FCS - TL granted after the First Attack allows a TL - reroll for the Second.

Focus and Evades are more likely to be spent on the first shot so that ship can possibly survive the second.

Which means the second shot is against only Dice. Combined with the ability to reroll granted from FCS makes that second shot incredibly potent since the attacker has the option to reroll if they were "unlucky" the defender on the other hand has no fallback.

Arguably you can say "save the tokens for the second shot" if the defender rolled "unlucky" for the first shot worse yet both shots that fighter is gone.

from a single ship for 4pts for a possible 6 damage not including Criticals is huge, especially IF the second half of the 6 damage has an increased chance of hitting.

Homing Missiles cost 5pts for a possible 4 damage not including Criticals and that includes the option to spend you TL for increased chance of hitting.

----

FCS-TL after Primary - no issue.

FCS-TL after Cluster Missiles - Major issue considering how low cost the secondary is and how it functions.

FCS-TL after other Secondaries - no issue.

Yep it's a possible 6 damage. but normally it's equivalent to 2 shots from an X-Wing at range 2... for 4pt... and costs a Target Lock... normally the X-Wing will be firing a shot with a TL anyway... So it's really an additional 3 dice attack once a game.... It can't even be used at range 3. SO it's not getting the secondary weapon advantage of not generating a green dice at range 3.

It is very decent against low Agility ships... It's really not great against A-Wings and Imperial ships.

From what I saw it was tested under the best possible situation, against a low agility opponent.

Saying that having it work off just Primary might be the answer.

I see. but running the scenarios in my head still has me feeling unsure about it in respects to Cluster.

As you say it's roughly equivalent to 2 shots from an X-Wing at range 2.

In a close formation of 3 TIEx1's that's an Alpha Strike of 6 X-Wings vs a single target. half with target lock.

It essentially means IF you have a special character in Alpha Strike range it's gone and useless.

Vs. Small Squads - the TIEx1 with Cluster + FCS is heavily favoring the TIEx1.

Vs. Swarm Squads - the ability to Snipe the Focal Point would be much harder to align a shot but potentially still take it out with ease.

I see. but running the scenarios in my head still has me feeling unsure about it in respects to Cluster.

As you say it's roughly equivalent to 2 shots from an X-Wing at range 2.

In a close formation of 3 TIEx1's that's an Alpha Strike of 6 X-Wings vs a single target. half with target lock.

It essentially means IF you have a special character in Alpha Strike range it's gone and useless.

Vs. Small Squads - the TIEx1 with Cluster + FCS is heavily favoring the TIEx1.

Vs. Swarm Squads - the ability to Snipe the Focal Point would be much harder to align a shot but potentially still take it out with ease.

But that is the point of missiles, to do an Alpha strike. Missiles will always do a better alpha strike than no missiles. Otherwise there would be no point in taking them ever. Howver You need to do enough damage to make up for the fact your spending lots of points on missiles.

Also there is far more to this than just statistics. The Cluster Missiles are range 1-2 and need a Target Lock to fire. SO the approach on that first attack matters a lot.

Expensive pilots will move in after the Tempests have moved. The Tempest therefore wont be able to get the TL to fire the first turn (the target will be outside 1-3 after the Tempests move). After that if the X-Wing player is canny he can make it a real pain to get the shot off.

But that is the point of missiles, to do an Alpha strike. Missiles will always do a better alpha strike than no missiles. Otherwise there would be no point in taking them ever. Howver You need to do enough damage to make up for the fact your spending lots of points on missiles.

Also there is far more to this than just statistics. The Cluster Missiles are range 1-2 and need a Target Lock to fire. SO the approach on that first attack matters a lot.

Expensive pilots will move in after the Tempests have moved. The Tempest therefore wont be able to get the TL to fire the first turn (the target will be outside 1-3 after the Tempests move). After that if the X-Wing player is canny he can make it a real pain to get the shot off.

I entirely agree with the purpose of Missiles being Alpha-Strikes. And that it's more than "Just Stats".

yes, Clusters do require Range 2-3 1-2 AND Target Lock. But you can acquire that target lock by taking snapshots at the target from range through FCS. With the target lock readily available you can spend your action on focus. which means after the first attack from Cluster FCS proc's TL. On Cluster's second attack you have TL + Focus to ensure hits. Which makes Alpha Striking all the easier.

Granted as you said you still need to line up a shot which can prove to be difficult. But the TIEx1 is an X-Wing with a built-in R2-F2 that doesn't require an action and can make still Evade Actions rather than spending a Turn TL-ing from FCS. The additional survivablity of the evade action makes closing to range a little easier.

EDIT:: oops on the range thanks for the catch.. meant to type "1-2"

Range 1-2.

But, it's really about the Alpha strike.. It's still quite hard for them to get the Alpha-strike off. And it's not an Alpha Strike if it happens in the 2nd or 3rd round of shooting. By that time the X-Wing should already have the advantage.

The Advanced is much worse than an X-Wing at the moment. With the FCS, you can get off a decent shot with the Cluster Missile (which costs 4pts). But it's still not better than the X-Wing the rest of the time. A Tie/X1 with a Cluster Missile is more expensive than an X-Wing without. so it's not really a fair comparison.

Compared to them to Red Squadron with an R2 unit and I think they don't really shine to well.

True it would be more of a Beta-Strike unless your opponent mismanages movement.

X-Wing vs TIEx1 isn't the best comparison the X1 trades an Attack dice for the evade action whereas the X-Wing is the opposite. A better game play comparison would be the A-Wing.

But many read this:

"[...] capable of fighting a T-65 X-wing starfighter to a draw." --- Wookiepedia

and feel:

it means =Firepower. which I don't believe is the case. to "Draw" in my mind means when comparing the 2 they either have =Firepower, =Defense, or 1's Firepower = 2's Defense. The last in the list is my interpretation of the " X-Wing vs TIEx1 to a Draw comparison ." but that is sort of beside the point.

That said from a point value perspective, RookieX vs Tempest

in a head to head comparison

RookieX Moves First. which means if they are equipped Protons they might need to wait for the next turn for TL.

Tempest Moves. Both are in Range 3 of each other. Tempest Evades, X Focuses, Both Fire, Tempest acquires FCS-TL.

Movement phase again.

RookieX acquires TL for Proton.

Tempest Moves into range 2 and Focuses.

this brings up the Cluster/FCS issue.

Tempest shoots First 3-Cluster then 3-Cluster + TL and Focus.

RookieX if alive shoots 4-Proton.

yes it's a head-to-head engagement which doesn't always occur but it displays how with equal points across the 2 ships the TIEx1 has an opportunity to still "Alpha-Strike" against a ship of equal points value.

also I will acknowledge in advance that during actual game play their are other ships with higher PS shooting before a Tempest. the example is to reflect an equal points scenario.

The theory work is all well and good, but on the table the T/A simply doesn't work. It is down to the mechanics of the game play.

Attack dice > Defense Dice and most dials > T/A

I've tried umpteen ways to hell and back to use the T/A and it simply is a fail. :-(

The theory work is all well and good, but on the table the T/A simply doesn't work. It is down to the mechanics of the game play.

Attack dice > Defense Dice and most dials > T/A

I've tried umpteen ways to hell and back to use the T/A and it simply is a fail. :-(

I'm telling you, go with this squad to use the TA:

Jonus, PtL, Homing missile

Scimitar Squadron, Proton Torp

Tempest Squadron, Cluster Missile

Tempest Squadron, Cluster MIssile

Unless your opponent's green dice are amazing (or your reds hate you) the missiles knock out enough damage early that the Advanceds can just clean up whatever is left.

Jendon shuttle / ion cannon / FCS / ST321

Tempest TIEadv / concuss

Tempest TIEadv / concuss

Dark Curse

"[...] capable of fighting a T-65 X-wing starfighter to a draw." --- Wookiepedia

With a FCS added we will have the draw.

Maarek + Opportunist anybody? Should work on the first glance - at least 3 dice and tl gives him a better chance to roll crits. Even better in range 1 ... but on the second look ... its just too easy to just focus if Maarek has a tl on your ship already.

Had a 200 points game yesterday (2vs2 team play), where the opponents used Vader in his TA (normal rules though). It was sad to watch him struggle to be relevant. They also had a firespray and a couple of Interceptors (with Turr and Soontir among those), so we concentrated on the Spray first and then on Turr and Soontir and the Interceptors - simply because they were much more dangerous than Vader. So Vader was the last to go down, and he didn't shine in the game (the missile he fired missed). We played Rebels and had Wedge, Biggs, Garven, 1 Blue w/hvy Laser, Jan Ors and Han Solo.

Now, my point: Every ship in the game was considered more dangerous than Vader... come on, it's Darth Vader, the Dark Lord himself, and we constantly ignored him. Would FCS had on him had made any difference? Hardly :-/ I would still go for an Interceptor first, more dangerous with its maneuvers and firepower, and easier to kill.

As you can see from my earlier two testreports (some 2 pages back), the FCS + cluster was successful vs the Bs, and ok vs the Shuttles (where I lost a fighter before I could fire all missiles). The reason why I used 4 TA was to get the chance to see what happens (if I play one along other ships I might not get enough data). Since you can only play 4 + cluster when using the PS2 version you are in grave danger to be shot down before getting missile off. So even IF FCS + cluster is mighty we might not see many lists that brings 4 on the field (just like you rarely/never see 4 Rookies with torpedoes). The tournament meta moves toward PS 4+ already, and the Aces will kick it more in that direction. I was able to keep all 4 in the first game and got all 4 missiles off, not easily done vs a good player (leaving dice luck out here).

The next testgames should give me more data on the FCS issue.

@RealStarkiller: Opportunist seems nice on Maarek, especially if you are able to deny actions from opponent. Still, Marksmanship might do better job (much better if you also get that cluster off :-) but it's an expensive Maarek then)

Now, my point: Every ship in the game was considered more dangerous than Vader... come on, it's Darth Vader, the Dark Lord himself, and we constantly ignored him. Would FCS had on him had made any difference? Hardly :-/ I would still go for an Interceptor first, more dangerous with its maneuvers and firepower, and easier to kill.

Yeah ... just ignore the Dark Sith Lord and kill him at last ... just you would ignore a single A-Wing. Bugs me as well.

Even Mauler Mithel is a bigger thread for most players (including myself) like "shoot Mauler before he can get into range 1!

I never used (or played against) Vader + expose( or the upcomming opportunist). Together with a FCS you shouldn't ignore him any longer.

Seems like Vader is the obvious candidate for Expose (as well as Daredevil), he's the only one that can sacrifice an action since he has two. Never seen an Exposed Vader so far, wonder why? Exposed and FCS would have him look more dangerous, especially since he will have some other action (evade, focus?)