Honestly I don't see them changing it.. or any ship really.. it's added cost.. so this is an interesting concept, but only for house rules everyone agrees upon..

Honestly I don't see them changing it.. or any ship really.. it's added cost.. so this is an interesting concept, but only for house rules everyone agrees upon..

Well it's added cost that would probably allow them to sell an extra 2 or 3 Advanced to all of us that only brought 1 for Vader and the Squad Leader card.

If they were worth flying I would have 4 like all the other Imperial fighters/bombers.

I do have 4 of them.. and i do like them as is.. sure FCS would be cool.. i think we forget that they already did all this play testing and made decisions based on those results. They have to work with game balance and playability of all ships.

I guess i have never been a big fan of changing a game to fit my perceived concepts, i try to use what they gave me in the best manner possible.. If i wanted to change games... I'd start making my own..

it's a big difference if you have a bunch of playtesters, that have a tight schedule, running a couple of tests on all ships, or if you get the experience from several hundred or even thousand of players out there, at different experience level. Sure a number of them will try to have their personal flavor become reality, but a lot others just share their experience with the community.

The tournament scene gives you a good overview on game balance, as you will find the toughest rules jockeys there (just ask the folks from Wizard/MtG, as soon as you release your stuff to the public you will see how well balanced it really is - when all the sudden crazy combos pop up). The TA not really showing in tournaments tells you something here. I'm pretty sure that it came out at a lower cost then 21 during game design but playtests might have shown that 5 at 100 points is probably not so funny. So the points tipped over 20 to avoid that. Just my personal guess here though (I have no deeper insights in the development process).

Agreed, I have no insite to their exact methods, and I can also agree that the tournaments will bring out the crazy stuff they probably didn't think of, there are a lot of creative people here and it is interesting to see what comes from a community like this.

My original thought on this was .. possibly, that with Vader being the only one out there they might have wanted it as a rare item. I do feel they are underused, but I also see a trend.. swarms, and people wanting more ships and using less upgrades to get thos extra ship.. with that thinking any costly ship will suffer. Quantity over quality is not a good environment for the T/A.

Me.. I like the upgrades and I use what I can, so I get fewer ships with cool stuff, and in my group I do ok.. I win some, I lose some. I'm sure in a tourney atmosphere I might suffer due to this desire for more ships.. and I do understand that quantity can typically mean survivability. I'm ok with all that, as long as I'm having fun.. the only reason I play at all.. I enjoy the game and can care less ifni lose.. I don't go down without a fight and I give as good as I get.. lol

Now and again I grab my 4 T/As and I take em for a spin.. maybe I win, maybe I lose..

It is not uncommon to adjust older game elements in a living and growing game.

In this case the uncommon step would be to chance meta by adding a specific rule to a ship. Thats new. Its a chance to further develop and balance the game.

sure if this game haD been out for the last 4 or 5 years maybe that's a viable aspect, but it is only, what, a year and a half.. a little too soon.

None of us knows what they will, or won't do.. that much is true.. all we can go on is their history.. and if I remember correctly, they are notorious for not making much change to their game systems.. though admittedly this is mostly what I have heard, as my only other game experience with them is the Wings of War thay used to put out... they no longer produce that game..

@Oneway.

I think you raised a good point when you said "I pull out my 4 T/A's and sometimes I win, sometimes I lose' to me, that is the measure of a balanced ship.

The problem that I am seeing with the T/A is it consistently loses where most of the other ships have a fairly even balance if you pull out the basic ships and fly against other basic ships.

4 X-Wings good win/loss balance

4 Y-Wings good win loss balance

8 Ties good win/loss balance

3 Firesprays

4 Interceptors

Even 5 A-Wings.

I have tried all the above against 4 T/A's and the T/A's always lose. (Granted the sample size is small)

Pete, I've played some solo games and they do alright, I think the solo rules are... favoring the player side of the game though, as I typically win verses the AI ships.. lol granted I only use a 2 on 2 game, but I don't always get to go against another person. Working on that lol.. trying to get others involved in the game.

My thought is that it should be similar to an X-wing in game play.. that it isn't, kind of baffles me. They are really close in most ways. When I am using the advanced I try to utilize its maneuverability as much as I can, and I try to get out of firing arcs of enemy ships. I onow I am not the greatest flyer outnthere, so ot does puzzle me that they don't get more use, but I see many people trying to get more ships on the table and figure that's why itnisnt getting used.. if you use Vader and Stele you only have so many points left for other ships an upgrades, if you use them.

If I had a consistent and regular opponent I would be trying all the options I could to try and figure some good tactics and lists to add them too.. I really dig the advanced..

@TheRealStarkiller: Please don't assume that I only read the first post just because I haven't posted in this thread before. I do agree with you that the TIE Advanced is under-represented in serious play. I just don't think this is because of a lack of balance mechanically, but rather it's role compared to other Imperial starfighters. Frankly, I would like more options and upgrades for it too, but those should be truly optional . More on that below.

@Shaadea: Agree with you on the difficulty of modifying it. People paid money for it, but they paid money for it as it is, and having a modified reprint would be frankly insulting (as well as setting a precedent that I fervently hope this game can avoid!). Title cards would be the best way to apply any such modification, but a free Title card giving the same ability as Fire Control System might be too much. I haven't tested that idea specifically, but all existing and announced 0-cost cards only give the option of spending points to add other, previously unavailable, upgrades. No in-game ability is free, and that's probably a good thing, otherwise it would become effectively mandatory.

If the ability were given a point cost (even one smaller than it might objectively be worth), it would be a way to increase the relative effectiveness and desirability of the TIE Advanced without either invalidating older printings of the ship or creating a "must-have" upgrade card, as players who don't have access to or don't want to use the new ability could use those points on other parts of their list instead. Using the Fire Control System example:

"TIE/X2

Title Card

TIE Advanced only. After you perform an attack, if you do not have a stress token, acquire a target lock on the defender.

1 Point"

This would represent an increase in the TIE Advanced's relative desirability, as other ships must spend 2 points to acquire a similar ability. Its ability isn't quite as good as a Fire Control System, because of the no-stress requirement, but actually reflects the TIE Advanced's movie appearance better, as Vader calmly pursues his targets down the trench, as well as reinforcing the prototype nature of the ship.

Also, there are plenty of situations where a player might want to spend that point on something else in their squadron, and players without access to it would be able to play without feeling that they were being denied an ability they should have. It could be included in a theoretical TIE Avenger or TIE Defender expansion, and be available to that ship as well, so that the TIE Advanced Expansion could remain unchanged, but a future expansion wouldn't have to include a card irrelevant to its ship.

It would help if the T/A at least had the 1 straight on its dial ... but no. I find its somewhat hard to dogfight with the T/A ... and then it don't even does some damage unless you use your action for a TL or focus ... so if you use the barrel or evade, you can just like forget its attack. So with the FCS added you could use your action else - or use Kturns, and still you have a 75% chance to score 2 hits. That helps a lot. Suddenly it isnt that worse that the 1 straight is missing - you can kturn and you are still able to do some damage. This would add a lot more value to the T/A, while the 'expensive prototype' feeling is even enhanced in a good way.

I'd love to have competitive T/As. I'd buy 3 more instantly.

What if the TIE Advanced is priced right, but the problem is 100 point games?

The Storm Squadron pilot is 23 points. This is a terrible points value for 100 point games, because it rules out 3 point upgrades. If the Storm Squadron pilot was reduced by a mere one point, to 22, I predict a resurgence of TIE Advanced in tournaments. Both Stealth Device and Push the Limit could be taken in 4 ship squads.

The other issue is, of course, Storm Squadron needs an EPT slot.

I would suggest a card that gives 4+ PS TIE Advanced an EPT slot and reduces the points of one EPT or Modification by 1 to a minimum of 1. Either that, or errata it to 22.

Tempest Squadron may be OK at 21 because it can already take Stealth Device or 4 point Missiles. Vader seems OK at 29. He is the most widely used. Not sure about Maarek.

I have been wondering this myself, but figured... again... nothing that is changing anytime soon... tournament wise that is..

In casual play a group could easily move to 150 or 200 points, but 100 is nice for a quock game. Possibly a new ormat of 125 points for games would open up some options.. good call onebit

What if the TIE Advanced is priced right, but the problem is 100 point games?

Not a bad idea. TIE swarms would be less viable if Assault Missiles were also easier to come by, giving more room for other Imperial builds.

@oneway 105 point games would go a long way to "fix" the TIE Advanced. But then you screw up everything else!

Dynamics will change no matter what point spread you choose, just depends on how people think.. at 125 or 150.. someones gonna think a dozen TIEs are a fun way to go.. lol.. or 6 X-wings, or 6 or 8 TIE/Ins..

Would be fun to field 5 advanceds with Vader leading though..

My thought is that it should be similar to an X-wing in game play.. that it isn't, kind of baffles me. They are really close in most ways. When I am using the advanced I try to utilize its maneuverability as much as I can,

The thing is I feel it's maneuverability other than it's barrel roll is worse than an X-Wing. I would rather have a 1 straight over a 5.

I don't think changing the point size helps a lot. being able to slip in a 5th would help obviously. But it would help the X-Wing the same amount. AND X-Wing would still be better. They are just a bit overpointed.

Personally as someone that has brought a Tie Advanced, I wouldn't mind if it was improved, so it was more useful in game. Then I might use it more. Allowing me to use one of my ships more would never be a problem. Running the same 3 or 4 ships all the time is never going to be as fun or engaging as being able to run 4 or 5 ships and mix it up more.

My thought is that it should be similar to an X-wing in game play.. that it isn't, kind of baffles me. They are really close in most ways. When I am using the advanced I try to utilize its maneuverability as much as I can,

The thing is I feel it's maneuverability other than it's barrel roll is worse than an X-Wing. I would rather have a 1 straight over a 5.

I can't really disagree with this.. lol

I guess I find it odd that Vader takes out a lot of rebels while in the trench, granted, from behind.. but he basically oneshots them, unless you count each laser bolt as a different turn (how long is a turn in this game, do they say anywhere?) And he does seem to match them move for move..

So this begs the question.... why is the advanced TIE dial missing a 1 straight green move...

My thought is that it should be similar to an X-wing in game play.. that it isn't, kind of baffles me. They are really close in most ways. When I am using the advanced I try to utilize its maneuverability as much as I can,

The thing is I feel it's maneuverability other than it's barrel roll is worse than an X-Wing. I would rather have a 1 straight over a 5.

I can't really disagree with this.. lol

I guess I find it odd that Vader takes out a lot of rebels while in the trench, granted, from behind.. but he basically oneshots them, unless you count each laser bolt as a different turn (how long is a turn in this game, do they say anywhere?) And he does seem to match them move for move..

So this begs the question.... why is the advanced TIE dial missing a 1 straight green move...

Well too be honest they are running fast down a trench. I doubt they are doing much slow flying.

I don't think changing the point size helps a lot. being able to slip in a 5th would help obviously. But it would help the X-Wing the same amount. AND X-Wing would still be better. They are just a bit overpointed.

Personally as someone that has brought a Tie Advanced, I wouldn't mind if it was improved, so it was more useful in game. Then I might use it more. Allowing me to use one of my ships more would never be a problem. Running the same 3 or 4 ships all the time is never going to be as fun or engaging as being able to run 4 or 5 ships and mix it up more.

Indeed it would be nice to mix it up a little.. and honestly, if I had a advanced like yours, I'd have it in almost every list.. lol.. my vision issues are keeping me from trying any ideas to paint or decal a decent looking model.. frustrating.. as I want to paint up some red TIEs (adv, Ln, In and bombers) as a unit and have them stand out on the table..

My thought is that it should be similar to an X-wing in game play.. that it isn't, kind of baffles me. They are really close in most ways. When I am using the advanced I try to utilize its maneuverability as much as I can,

The thing is I feel it's maneuverability other than it's barrel roll is worse than an X-Wing. I would rather have a 1 straight over a 5.

I can't really disagree with this.. lol

I guess I find it odd that Vader takes out a lot of rebels while in the trench, granted, from behind.. but he basically oneshots them, unless you count each laser bolt as a different turn (how long is a turn in this game, do they say anywhere?) And he does seem to match them move for move..

So this begs the question.... why is the advanced TIE dial missing a 1 straight green move...

Well too be honest they are running fast down a trench. I doubt they are doing much slow flying.

"We're going in full throttle. That ought to keep those fighters off our backs." - Luke Skywalker, Battle of Yavin.

You do see his wingmen fire in a couple scenes, their attacks or the turbolaser defenses could have brought down shields.

As for the dial, probably because straight maneuvers are noticeably shorter than bank maneuvers, and they didn't want it to be able to go that slow, especially since the TIE Fighter doesn't have either at speed 1.

Didn't think about that... turbos taking the shields.. good call.. lol

Yet again:

Don't read the first post only!

There is a development in this topic.

The current solution is to give the Advanced a free FCS in exchange for the 2 points it is overcosted.

If you want to post in this topic, please take the time and read first!

Thank you.

do you have any idea how long it takes to read through 20 solid pages of redundant text?

when threads get this large nobody reads the entirety unless that have 0 time on their hands

The lack of a 1 straight really hinders the Advanced. Honestly, the biggest drawback is the fact that it is supposed to be the X-Wings mirror, but due to game dynamics 3 attack and 2 def on the X is far better than 3 def and 2 att on the T/A.

It's why I think FCS on the T/A is so elegant. Would I like a 1 straight as well. Very much, but that just won't happen. :-(