Doesn't that idea change the role of the Advanced though and I was trying to make it the heavy fighter it is supposed to be, not an Imperial version of a Y-Wing?

17 points for a PS1 Prototype vs 19 points for a PS2 Advanced is about right. The prototype has a better dial + engine boost, and the Advanced gains 1 shield and +1PS for 2 points. It's about a wash.

At 19 points you do get +2 shields relative to a TIE fighter, but you have the same attack, so the TIE Fighter is actually much better value. If you had 19 TIE Fighters vs 12 TIE Advanced, the TIE Fighters would clean house because they have much more attack and redundancy.

The more I think about it, the more I like the idea of different upgrades that you could put on the Advanced for free, or for some cost. You could argue that some of the improvements that later were fitted to the TIE Interceptor, Avenger, and Defender, could trickle down to the original x1 Advanced. All of these would be TIE Advanced only, and would preclude you from taking any other ship upgrade. Summarizing some of the ideas here:

Improved Manufacturing (0 points)

Reduce the cost of this ship by 2 points.

Weapons Upgrade: (3 points)

Add +1 attack to this ship's primary weapons

Increased Maneuverability (0 points)

This ship now uses the TIE Interceptor maneuver dial, and gains the Engine Boost action

Versatile Payload (0 points)

This ship gains the System Upgrade slot, and may equip any secondary weapon in the Missile Slot.

I am sure we can think of some other ideas. Balance-wise, 3 points for +1 attack is probably about right. Compared to an X-Wing, you're basically paying +3 to get one agility, barrel roll, and the evade action, but you do lose the forward 1 maneuver. Compared to a TIE Interceptor, you are paying 5 points to get 2 shields, but lose boost and the improved maneuver dial.

I think 3pts for +1 atk die is possibly overpowered when you consider it becomes an interceptor with shields al be it minus the dial and a few tricks but will give it more thought.

I really like the idea of a free upgrade to reduce the ships cost but maybe it should come with a reduction in PS of one point or something.

Also FFG should include more of these reduction upgrade titles than ships in the pack to help people who have already bought a few tie advances

I worry about any upgrade that says use another ships dial as people may not own that ship

Yeah right. I want to have the TIE Aggressor for this role.

And don't you - MajorJuggler - said you want to save the 3 attack for the TIE Avenger?

@swamp: yeah you stressed kind of ^^

No offence, you are a good man, maybe you should better outline your core statement.

I think I would be happy with a built-in FCS. Its so easy to be done. Even for FFG. They yust need to print this into the next errata. Ne need for additional cards. The TIE Advance has now a built-in FCS.

Pete, what do you think?

Would you prefere a different free upgrade?

If you use the square root rule for balancing cost, then a PS1 advanced would be 18*(5/3)^0.5 = 23.24 points. Add 1 point for +1 PS and you're at 24 points, which equals a PS2 Tempest plus the 3 point upgrade card. But, the Tempest doesn't get Engine Boost or the better dial, so I think it's fine. It's basically a 5 point upgrade considering you get can -2 cost for free.

I certainly would not want to see +1 attack for the Advanced across the board. But adding it as one possible upgrade could be cool. The Avenger would have +2 shields, a WAY better dial, and boost, so there is still quite a bit of distinction there.

I agree, I also don't know about allowing Turret weapons on the Advanced. It seems a little wonky. Maybe change it to:

Versatile Payload (0 points)

This ship gains the System Upgrade slot, and may equip a cannon in its Missile Slot.

(Do we want to allow Torpedoes? Give Vader the chance to use APTs?)

Edit: reducing the cost while also reducing the pilot skill is kind of self-defeating, since 1 PS = 1 point. It would also change the dynamic from PS 2/4 to PS1/3, which is weird.

I would simply like to see the Systems Upgrade added to the ship. It is a simple fix that allows the player to choose their option and fly the Advanced in a way that doesn't alter its core roll.

Yes, it would be a cool system - but over the top in terms of complexity and the materials you need. You need a lot of cards printed ... and this is not going to be happen - unless FFG has a chance to earn money in doing so.

I am looking for a more simple solution. Just like a built-in upgrade. Don't you think it would be cool to have a free FCS?

The Avenger will be 3-3-3-2 btw ^^

Yes, it would be a cool system - but over the top in terms of complexity and the materials you need. You need a lot of cards printed ... and this is not going to be happen - unless FFG has a chance to earn money in doing so.

I am looking for a more simple solution. Just like a built-in upgrade. Don't you think it would be cool to have a free FCS?

The Avenger will be 3-3-3-2 btw ^^

I still don't think you're going to get the avenger. Its really nothing more than an upgraded advanced, which could easily be taken care of with an upgrade card similar to the Royal Guard Interceptor.

@swamp: yeah you stressed kind of ^^

No offence, you are a good man, maybe you should better outline your core statement.

I think I would be happy with a built-in FCS. Its so easy to be done. Even for FFG. They yust need to print this into the next errata. Ne need for additional cards. The TIE Advance has now a built-in FCS.

Pete, what do you think?

Would you prefere a different free upgrade?

thank you StarKiller I do waffle and should stop mixing ideas into the same post.

the thing I take away from this most though is that through brainstorming we both cam to the same conclusion

I like to think great minds etc..

I would simply like to see the Systems Upgrade added to the ship. It is a simple fix that allows the player to choose their option and fly the Advanced in a way that doesn't alter its core roll.

This solution still is simple yet effective ... but the Advanced remains overcosted

I'm right now about to test a Tempest + FCS vs a Rookie shootout at range 2. The Advanced performes far better now! I think it is an even match. Maybe MajorJuggler want to outline the odds, but I got a good feeling on this one.

If you use the square root rule for balancing cost, then a PS1 advanced would be 18*(5/3)^0.5 = 23.24 points. Add 1 point for +1 PS and you're at 24 points, which equals a PS2 Tempest plus the 3 point upgrade card. But, the Tempest doesn't get Engine Boost or the better dial, so I think it's fine. It's basically a 5 point upgrade considering you get can -2 cost for free.

I certainly would not want to see +1 attack for the Advanced across the board. But adding it as one possible upgrade could be cool. The Avenger would have +2 shields, a WAY better dial, and boost, so there is still quite a bit of distinction there.

I agree, I also don't know about allowing Turret weapons on the Advanced. It seems a little wonky. Maybe change it to:

Versatile Payload (0 points)

This ship gains the System Upgrade slot, and may equip a cannon in its Missile Slot.

(Do we want to allow Torpedoes? Give Vader the chance to use APTs?)

Edit: reducing the cost while also reducing the pilot skill is kind of self-defeating, since 1 PS = 1 point. It would also change the dynamic from PS 2/4 to PS1/3, which is weird.

System upgrade slot + cannon slot for 0 points? wow ... this would render the Advanced a fairly good heavy fighter just like the B-Wing for the rebels is ... or almost

By replacing the missile slot for the cannon upgrade, I think that would be a great idea.. and doesn't feel over powering to me..

Awesome concept..

I am not sold on allowing cannons on the Advanced, just doesn't seem quite right. That is the Firesprays job.

I could live with a free FCS I guess.

It would at least make my 2 shots stick.

It is also very "canon"

I am not sold on allowing cannons on the Advanced, just doesn't seem quite right. That is the Firesprays job.

I could live with a free FCS I guess.

It would at least make my 2 shots stick.

It is also very "canon"

Right ... cannons on a small ship is more the job of the Defender.

You should try the FCS. Its really decent. You can even get a good shot while using the evade action ... so there is still a lot of options. Even Maarek + Markmanship would be of better use. And Vader is still Vader. Finally Expose would be good on him ... and maybe even worth the 4 points

Titles are the way to go. These should be 0-1pts (x7 might need to be 1-2)

Advanced- Lord Vader's x1 (unique): free, add the elite pilot skill upgrade to your upgrade bar.

Advanced- Prototype x2: 1pt, add the systems upgrade to your upgrade bar.

Advanced- Prototype x3: 1pt, your firing arc is increased to 180 degrees.

Advanced- Prototype x7: 2pts, you may use the tie interceptor movement dial rather than the tie advanced movement dial.

Advanced- Prototype Aggressor: 1pt, you have a rear firing arc equal to your front firing arc

Titles are the way to go. These should be 0-1pts (x7 might need to be 1-2)

Advanced- Lord Vader's x1 (unique): free, add the elite pilot skill upgrade to your upgrade bar.

Advanced- Prototype x2: 1pt, add the systems upgrade to your upgrade bar.

Advanced- Prototype x3: 1pt, your firing arc is increased to 180 degrees.

Advanced- Prototype x7: 2pts, you may use the tie interceptor movement dial rather than the tie advanced movement dial.

Advanced- Prototype Aggressor: 1pt, you have a rear firing arc equal to your front firing arc

I agree, but as the X1 is already overcosted, paying 1 more pt to then be able to pay more for a system upgrade doesn't really help.

Heresy!

So, tossing everything out there again, there are the first 2 that everybody seems to like as options, followed by 3 more:

It is hard to exactly quantify the effects of Fire Control System, because you can't be guaranteed that your target will be in your sights next turn. I think as long as you provide the option to take 2 points off the ship cost instead of adding FCS, that it should be inherently balanced since either way it's essentially a net 2 point boost.

Here's some comparisons, format is:

Vanilla TIE Advanced vs X-Wing

TIE Advanced with FCS vs X-Wing

X-Wing vs TIE Advanced

0 hits 1+ hits 2+ hits 3+ hits 4+ hits

range 2, defender and attacker have focus

60.5% 39.5% 7.9% 2 attack dice + Focus vs 2 defense dice with focus = 0.475

44.8% 55% 12.4% 2 attack dice + TL + Focus vs 2 defense dice with focus = 0.676

54% 46% 15.6% 2.2% 3 attack dice + Focus vs 3 defense dice with focus = 0.637

30.1% 69.9% 31.6% 5.9% 3 attack dice + Focus vs 2 defense dice with focus = 1.07

7.4% 92.6% 52.5% 11.6% 3 attack dice + TL + Focus vs 2 defense dice with focus = 1.57

29.6% 70.4% 38.4% 12.2% 1.7% 4 attack dice + Focus vs 3 defense dice with focus = 1.23

If the Advanced can get in range 1 with a TL, then it looks pretty good. At range 2, then the X-Wing and Advanced do about the same damage to each other. But if the X-Wings can maneuver well and the Advanced can't use their TLs, then game:set:match to the X-Wings. So, it's reasonable, which is what we expected since we figured that the Advanced costs 2 points too much, and FCS is 2 points. 2 points = 2 points, News at 11.

It does open up interesting options with Vader though, especially with Expose.

Titles are the way to go. These should be 0-1pts (x7 might need to be 1-2)

Advanced- Lord Vader's x1 (unique): free, add the elite pilot skill upgrade to your upgrade bar.

Advanced- Prototype x2: 1pt, add the systems upgrade to your upgrade bar.

Advanced- Prototype x3: 1pt, your firing arc is increased to 180 degrees.

Advanced- Prototype x7: 2pts, you may use the tie interceptor movement dial rather than the tie advanced movement dial.

Advanced- Prototype Aggressor: 1pt, you have a rear firing arc equal to your front firing arc

I would like to vet these and break them down.

x1: I'm cringing on this one, because:

1. It means that Vader lent out his own ship (that he personally built) to some n00b pilot
2. Said n00b pilot suddenly can do elite stuff.

Meh. It also requires spending MORE points on the elite pilot skill, on a PS2 or PS 4 pilot. Also, unrelated, I would rather see the PS4 pilot have an elite slot, but whatever. If the Advanced gets the shaft here, then I guess its more motivation to get PS7/PS9 pilots.

x2: Good idea, but you can't make it cost more points. Even the "Versatile Payload" variant that I added is still of questionable value.

x3: You technically need a new ship base for that. It wouldn't work for tournament play.

x7: Nice idea, I added Boost as well and balanced the points to zero. As it stands now, it should be a free upgrade. See my breakdown a few posts back.

Aggressor: this absolutely needs a new ship base, so I don't see how this could be implemented.

Titles are the way to go. These should be 0-1pts (x7 might need to be 1-2)

Advanced- Lord Vader's x1 (unique): free, add the elite pilot skill upgrade to your upgrade bar.

Advanced- Prototype x2: 1pt, add the systems upgrade to your upgrade bar.

Advanced- Prototype x3: 1pt, your firing arc is increased to 180 degrees.

Advanced- Prototype x7: 2pts, you may use the tie interceptor movement dial rather than the tie advanced movement dial.

Advanced- Prototype Aggressor: 1pt, you have a rear firing arc equal to your front firing arc

I would like to vet these and break them down.

x1: I'm cringing on this one, because:

1. It means that Vader lent out his own ship (that he personally built) to some n00b pilot
2. Said n00b pilot suddenly can do elite stuff.

Meh. It also requires spending MORE points on the elite pilot skill, on a PS2 or PS 4 pilot. Also, unrelated, I would rather see the PS4 pilot have an elite slot, but whatever. If the Advanced gets the shaft here, then I guess its more motivation to get PS7/PS9 pilots.

x2: Good idea, but you can't make it cost more points. Even the "Versatile Payload" variant that I added is still of questionable value.

x3: You technically need a new ship base for that. It wouldn't work for tournament play.

x7: Nice idea, I added Boost as well and balanced the points to zero. As it stands now, it should be a free upgrade. See my breakdown a few posts back.

Aggressor: this absolutely needs a new ship base, so I don't see how this could be implemented.

I asked for point feedback and no one bit the first time.

I agree about the need for them to cost 0 but was looking for someone to yell "That broken if it's free" and not have everyone agree with me! Yay for great minds...and all that.

These are solely for casual play at this point. Turning your base around for a rear firing arc fire is pretty easy, the 180 isn't really that hard either (but we do have a laser level). New cardboard bases or "clear" overshields would be a great thing to package in the "Imperial Aces: Tie Advanced" product along with a bunch of different pilots.

From a fluff perspective Vader giving out his own ship is icky but it's the only thing I could think of for a legitimate reason for someone who previously didn't get an EPT to get one (he's so awesome that his ship is just infused with his awesomeness), for Vader himself to not be able to get a second EPT, and a great reason for you to just not be able to load up and entire squad with the same upgrade.

Thats what I experienced during my little tests in the range 2 duels:

An Advanced with FCS vs a X-Wing is pretty much balanced.

Thanks MajorJuggler.

And imagine you can use the TL bonus even if you are stressed out after kturns.

Of course you need to keep the same target in your arc to gain an advantage from FCS.

I think thats the way i'd go.

No cards to print - just a line in the errata.

Improved Targeting ... nice feature

Purely theoretical here but just going through all the system upgrade possibilities. FCS good, advanced sensors good Sensor Jammer?

It's expensive, and probably not worth it, but is sensor jammer fun with an advanced with a stealth device? Sounds like a tank.

If you had Carnor Jax nearby then it could be OK, since they couldn't spend the focus. 7 points is a pretty steep cost for those 2 upgrades though, you would be sitting at 28 points at PS2. You would probably get more overall health if you spent that towards getting another ship, but that's the story with upgrades in general.

Purely theoretical here but just going through all the system upgrade possibilities. FCS good, advanced sensors good Sensor Jammer?

It's expensive, and probably not worth it, but is sensor jammer fun with an advanced with a stealth device? Sounds like a tank.

The issue is you have no reason to attack it at the moment. It doesn't do enough damage to be a threat, so you leave it till last. It might work in scenarios.

I am really sold on the free FCS, especially as the canon states the Advanced had new and highly advanced targeting systems.

Improved Manufacturing (0 points)

Reduce the cost of this ship by 2 points.

Improved Targeting (0 points)

This ship can now equip the Fire Control System upgrade for zero points.

Weapons Upgrade: (3 points)

Add +1 attack to this ship's primary weapons.

Increased Maneuverability (0 points)

This ship now uses the TIE Interceptor maneuver dial, and gains the Engine Boost action.

Versatile Payload (0 points)

This ship gains the System Upgrade slot, and may equip a cannon in the Missile Slot.

So, the first two options are good, I think they should both be available. This change alone would probably be fine. Anyone have any thoughts about the other three, or have any other options?