Dark Heresy Rulebook. Page 12. Chapter 1: Character Creation.

Third paragraph down:

It's not going to be easy. In the earliest stages, you are little better than anyone else of the 41st Millennium. You are merely one of the many scores of Acolytes recruited into the Inquisition. You'll need to use your wits, luck and the skills of your companions to the best of your abilities if you are to survive.

Dark Heresy Rulebook. Page 12. Chapter 1: Character Creation.

Third paragraph down:

It's not going to be easy. In the earliest stages, you are little better than anyone else of the 41st Millennium. You are merely one of the many scores of Acolytes recruited into the Inquisition. You'll need to use your wits, luck and the skills of your companions to the best of your abilities if you are to survive.

Good find TK. I think that is the smoking gun to the debate.

Of course it doesn't help that the pool of character options itself is a bit contradictory. Whilst a Hive ganger or a Guardsman might be a perfect example for "the average guy", the same prolly does not apply to the Assassin or the Arbites.

My own misgivings about the chosen original power level aside ("let's make a game about the Imperium's most powerful organisation .. and have everyone play scrubs!"), I feel it would help to categorise character options in a way that supports both the narrative compatibility as well as mechanical balance. DH2 has already moved towards this by disconnecting role names from specific professions, which I think was a good thing to do for multiple reasons. Perhaps it would be sufficient to provide a table of exemplary professions to tell the player whether they'd belong in a "scrub" or "advanced" game, and then add a box about the starting differences between characters in both categories?

There is a problem with conflicting information. These sentences do not tell the same story about the acolytes:

"Players in Dark Heresy take on the role of unique and exceptional individuals plucked from across the galaxy to become Acolytes in the service of an Inquisitor."

“Inquisitors do not choose their Acolytes at whim. The player characters in Dark Heresy are a cut above the rest of humanity, and fated for a greater destiny.”

“It's not going to be easy. In the earliest stages, you are little better than anyone else of the 41st Millennium. You are merely one of the many scores of Acolytes recruited into the Inquisition. You'll need to use your wits, luck and the skills of your companions to the best of your abilities if you are to survive.”

I think the game-designers need to choose which of the above they want to be true, remove the conflicting information, and make sure that the mechanics reflect this decision. The book could also benefit from a little information on who are likely to be selected as acolytes. And, if they choose to go with the “Average Joe” option, a good reason why an Inquisitor with the authority to blow up planets would choose acolytes who are “little better than anyone else of the 41st Millennium” when they can choose anyone they want to. This may be a genre thing, but it still needs some in-game justification.

I don't think it really matters which is true. If you want more exceptional characters than add more attribute points and starting xp, otherwise they can be closer to the average joe.

We don't really need one or the other. That is what our imaginations are for.

I, on the other hand, think it would be an advantage if the game had a clear and mechanically supported vision of what the characters are supposed to be like. It is much easier to use ones imagination and change the game if we know what the game is supposed to be like to begin with.

Thing is 50% of the fans have the first imagination, the other 50% have the second.

Making a hard definition means one half will be angry.

Offering both choices would be an easy way out and would hurt no-one.

I, on the other hand, think it would be an advantage if the game had a clear and mechanically supported vision of what the characters are supposed to be like. It is much easier to use ones imagination and change the game if we know what the game is supposed to be like to begin with.

I don't think their intention is to make it clear. It's a matter of interpretation and has never been clear even in the novels.

For instance, Ravenor's retinue were not superheroes but they were very resourceful, gritty, and planned well.

Thing is 50% of the fans have the first imagination, the other 50% have the second.

Making a hard definition means one half will be angry.

Offering both choices would be an easy way out and would hurt no-one.

I agree (as stated in my first post).

I, on the other hand, think it would be an advantage if the game had a clear and mechanically supported vision of what the characters are supposed to be like. It is much easier to use ones imagination and change the game if we know what the game is supposed to be like to begin with.

I don't think their intention is to make it clear. It's a matter of interpretation and has never been clear even in the novels.

For instance, Ravenor's retinue were not superheroes but they were very resourceful, gritty, and planned well.

If they don't want to be clear about the supposed power level, they should at least be clear about their intention to leave this up to interpretation instead of including conflicting statements IMHO.

Just a note about the "Reality" of DH. PC's ARE a cut above the "average Joe". They have fate points after all! They are not comrades or mooks. Inquisitors may have picked them because they show that "spark" of potential not because they're ready to get in a knife fight with Sly Marbo! I'm with Gaunt here;(Surprisingly enough! ). It does the game no harm for the Gm to artificially advance the Pc's if they so choose to do so and some guidelines for that would be most welcome, But; I believe it WOULD hurt the game to insist that the players are at RT lvl or whatever! Both play styles are valid! I definitely like the idea of keeping the base at 2d10+20 + 600xp and then awarding x number experience for "Elite" Operatives. I think 3000xp would be a good starting point because this is approximately where Stormtroopers start out OW! (For that matter; What's to stop a player from simply generating an OW Stormtrooper for such a game!).

@ Matias. I don't think the statements are in conflict at all. The reason the Inquisition picked you is not because you are the biggest badass on the block! They have access to those if they need them and in Dark heresy that Ain't you! At least not initially! Honestly! Think about it! If the goal was combat effectiveness, Why would an Inquisitor recruit a guardsman (Even a stormtrooper!) if he has access to Space marines? Or Vindicare temple assassins or, whatever! You are there because you are the appropriate tool at the time. You have what the Inquisitor believes is that special ingredient to get the job done! It may not be readily apparent to everyone around you but that's the point! You can slip in, investigate, Infiltrate or whatever and piece it all together so that when it's time to bring down the hammer you're ready. If you're not a big enough hammer on your own, believe me, your Inquisitor WILL find one that is!

@ Matias. I don't think the statements are in conflict at all. The reason the Inquisition picked you is not because you are the biggest badass on the block! They have access to those if they need them and in Dark heresy that Ain't you! At least not initially! Honestly! Think about it! If the goal was combat effectiveness, Why would an Inquisitor recruit a guardsman (Even a stormtrooper!) if he has access to Space marines? Or Vindicare temple assassins or, whatever! You are there because you are the appropriate tool at the time. You have what the Inquisitor believes is that special ingredient to get the job done! It may not be readily apparent to everyone around you but that's the point! You can slip in, investigate, Infiltrate or whatever and piece it all together so that when it's time to bring down the hammer you're ready. If you're not a big enough hammer on your own, believe me, your Inquisitor WILL find one that is!

This is not necessarily about combat effectiveness. Why would an Inquisitor rutinely recruit amateur spies (or whatever type of acolyte they are looking for), when they can recruit among the best on the planet?

Why indeed? There must be some reason! I tend to believe it's because Temple assassins and Space marines and such are a Finite resource. They cannot be wasted on every rumor of trouble! Because of the danger of letting heresy fester the Inquisitor must respond to new threats immediately but he must also reserve his truly powerful resources for truly big jobs! A hive world contains often Billions of inhabitants who generate millions of rumors of heresy. Even if a given Inquisitor only investigates 1% of the rumours he hears that leaves tens of thousands of leads! Now lets assume that the inquisitor eliminates 99% of those leads through secondary contacts that now leaves hundreds of rumors worthy of investigation. Does he have enough assets to send Elite grade operatives after all of them? I doubt it! That leaves you, The lowly scrub that one of the Inquisitors, Retinue's, contact's minions said might be useful in a given investigation. So you are contacted and told that the "fate of the world" rests on your shoulders (And who knows? It might!) and you have been given this task because those on high have seen your 'potential' (whatever that means!)! May the Emperor guide you in your endeavors! (For emphasis!).

Now if you survive this 'trial by fire' and better still, solve a mystery and bring down a nascent heresy, then you have indeed gotten the Inquisitor's attention and become one of those resources he keeps handy for more important jobs. (Not ALWAYS a blessing!)

Why indeed? There must be some reason! I tend to believe it's because Temple assassins and Space marines and such are a Finite resource. They cannot be wasted on every rumor of trouble! Because of the danger of letting heresy fester the Inquisitor must respond to new threats immediately but he must also reserve his truly powerful resources for truly big jobs! A hive world contains often Billions of inhabitants who generate millions of rumors of heresy. Even if a given Inquisitor only investigates 1% of the rumours he hears that leaves tens of thousands of leads! Now lets assume that the inquisitor eliminates 99% of those leads through secondary contacts that now leaves hundreds of rumors worthy of investigation. Does he have enough assets to send Elite grade operatives after all of them? I doubt it! That leaves you, The lowly scrub that one of the Inquisitors, Retinue's, contact's minions said might be useful in a given investigation. So you are contacted and told that the "fate of the world" rests on your shoulders (And who knows? It might!) and you have been given this task because those on high have seen your 'potential' (whatever that means!)! May the Emperor guide you in your endeavors! (For emphasis!).

Now if you survive this 'trial by fire' and better still, solve a mystery and bring down a nascent heresy, then you have indeed gotten the Inquisitor's attention and become one of those resources he keeps handy for more important jobs. (Not ALWAYS a blessing!)

Likewise, Inquisition agents are a finite resource as well. They have millions of possible threats with the most experienced members taking on the worst of them. A rumor of a small cult brewing due to a request from some Arbites doesn't necessarily constitute the attention of the Inquisitor or high ranking agents. Keep in mind that these leads are already being looked into by Arbites and enforcers on a regular basis. There just so happens that they might also need some extra backup or an "expert" or two to look into the matter further. This is where low ranking agents come in in my opinion.

I think that's what I said! But thanks for clarifying! Although you make good point... A squad of Arbitrators marching into the underhive asking questions is going to drive EVERY underworld element, especially the heretics in question, under cover as quickly as they can get there! Also, Mid level personnel often have just enough influence themselves to be part of the problem! (A BC Apostate starts at 7000xp!). Better to ask the guy in the mail room if his boss has been acting funny than to ask said boss why there are 'inconsistencies' in his reports.

I think that's what I said! But thanks for clarifying!

Just reinforcing the idea

You mean like Psykers and Arbites? Or better yet, Untouchables, to name just one of the several character options in DH1 that are rarer than Marines.

I would say that "little better than anyone else" does sound contradictory to an "exceptional indivual" who is "a cut above the rest" - but as has been said before, it would be simple to create a place for both kinds of characters by providing the framework for both types of games.

The first series of 40k RPGs has already tried to create a sort of tiering compartmentalised into groups of 4 Ranks, with suggesting that Rank 1 RT characters are the equivalent of Rank 5 DH characters, and Rank 1 DW characters being the equivalent to Rank 9 DH. So, leaving aside how "well" that actually worked out in practice, maybe DH2 could offer various "higher-powered" professions as starting at higher Rank by default, either for games that just start at this higher level by default, or if someone got his character killed and now opts to try one of the other classes that got "unlocked" by the party progressing past the minimum Rank.

(in essence, the character would "experience" their first couple Ranks as part of their background package before joining the game, such as a Schola Progenium education or a term of service with the Imperial Guard)

Even exceptional starts somewhere Lynata.

I personally don't see a problem with Pc's graduating into other 'higher powered' professions such as arch-militant or something but this could be handled through rules similar to those in OW Hammer of the Emperor. I still think the starting point should be fairly low.

The thing is a lot of positions don't let you 'rank up' into them. An Acolyte is never going to become a Temple Assassin, for instance. A generic shrine worlder Priest is never going to get suddenly swept up into the Adepta Sororitas. Some positions kind of require a high level from the outset.

The thing is a lot of positions don't let you 'rank up' into them. An Acolyte is never going to become a Temple Assassin, for instance. A generic shrine worlder Priest is never going to get suddenly swept up into the Adepta Sororitas. Some positions kind of require a high level from the outset.

According to the fluff, Temple assassins would most certainly come from lower level Assassins. They would probably be an Elite advance though. Other's, Like the Sororitas are already defined as reinforcements. Even the Space marines would typically start as Feral world warriors (Most commonly at least!). Of course the selection process for an Astartes would be a game in itself!

Space Marines also have to be around fourteen when they're created, so that rules out the vast majority of PCs. Temple Assassins are raised within the organisation as far as I know, and their training starts at a similarly young age (no doubt FFG retconned this in Ascension, but let's pretend that book didn't happen, yeah?).

Anyway, even if adults could go into these sort of lofty organisations, all the training, augmentation and general preperation would take YEARS, you could basically remove them from the game at that point.

As for your point about Sororitas, why limit them from being PCs? I see nothing wrong with something existing as both a reinforcement and a PC option. Anyway, the Reinforcement Sororitas is a Cannoness, a bit of a step above a typical sister (cheaper than a Deathwatch marine though, for some unknowable, silly reason).

In GW's version of the setting, Temple Assassins are recruited out of the Schola Progenium, similar to the Sororitas.

Of course, FFG may well have gone different ways regarding this - again, similar to their portrayal of the Sisterhood - so that does not have to mean much.

But our positions are not actually that far from one another - it's just that some professions would allow you to "rank up into them", whereas others simply start out at a higher level by default, because it'd be simply impractical to play out their background. I don't think this would be a problem for the game, considering the many options to use them in one.

Anyway, the Reinforcement Sororitas is a Cannoness, a bit of a step above a typical sister (cheaper than a Deathwatch marine though, for some unknowable, silly reason).

FFG really, really likes their Space Marines.

Though in some twisted way it actually makes sense. In FFG's version of the setting, the Sororitas are far more numerous, whereas the Deathwatch is no longer part of the Ordo Xenos - so the former are easier to request, and the latter are more difficult to procure. So maybe it helps thinking of the cost as a matter of connections and responsiveness/authority.

Ironic how this completely negates the reason for the Deathwatch's existence in GW's original material, tho.

The Reinforcement system is wonky in general. The fact you can call in Temple Assassins before you're even affluent enough to become an Inquisitor is ridiculous. Officially, only the bloody High Lord of Terra can call in Temple Assassins. The idea of someone who's got the influence of an Interrogator at best calling one in is as hilarious as it is stupid.

I should probably make a thread about this, I have a lot of issues with the Reinforcement system.

That may be more of an issue with the studio writers' idea of the setting, though. Ascension already broke with the original Temple Assassin fluff in that such a character can be permanently assigned to a group of Acolytes, whereas in GW's world, every single mission needs to be authorised individually.

Every single one of these RPGs is conflicting with Codex background on so many details, it's probably best to discard all expectations you may have from the original material. That doesn't make the many contradictions any less frustrating (I am actually in favour of Sororitas not being made available as PCs simply because I no longer believe they'd "get them right"), but given how lax 40k is when it comes to details in continuity, I have long ago converted shock and protest into bitter sarcasm and the occasional potshot.

That may be more of an issue with the studio writers' idea of the setting, though. Ascension already broke with the original Temple Assassin fluff in that such a character can be permanently assigned to a group of Acolytes, whereas in GW's world, every single mission needs to be authorised individually.

Every single one of these RPGs is conflicting with Codex background on so many details, it's probably best to discard all expectations you may have from the original material. That doesn't make the many contradictions any less frustrating (I am actually in favour of Sororitas not being made available as PCs simply because I no longer believe they'd "get them right"), but given how lax 40k is when it comes to details in continuity, I have long ago converted shock and protest into bitter sarcasm and the occasional potshot.

Lynata is right on this. It is up to the Gm to just say 'no' when the players want to do something silly. Also, It should be noted that I agree that at least mathmatically, The reinforcement system does not work as advertised. In the guidlines mentioned, A deathwatch marine (Or ANY veteran space marine for that matter) should require an Influence of 130 to attempt and 13 spent to actually deploy! This will need to be fixed in the final product!

Why indeed? There must be some reason! I tend to believe it's because Temple assassins and Space marines and such are a Finite resource. They cannot be wasted on every rumor of trouble! Because of the danger of letting heresy fester the Inquisitor must respond to new threats immediately but he must also reserve his truly powerful resources for truly big jobs! A hive world contains often Billions of inhabitants who generate millions of rumors of heresy. Even if a given Inquisitor only investigates 1% of the rumours he hears that leaves tens of thousands of leads! Now lets assume that the inquisitor eliminates 99% of those leads through secondary contacts that now leaves hundreds of rumors worthy of investigation. Does he have enough assets to send Elite grade operatives after all of them? I doubt it! That leaves you, The lowly scrub that one of the Inquisitors, Retinue's, contact's minions said might be useful in a given investigation. So you are contacted and told that the "fate of the world" rests on your shoulders (And who knows? It might!) and you have been given this task because those on high have seen your 'potential' (whatever that means!)! May the Emperor guide you in your endeavors! (For emphasis!).

Now if you survive this 'trial by fire' and better still, solve a mystery and bring down a nascent heresy, then you have indeed gotten the Inquisitor's attention and become one of those resources he keeps handy for more important jobs. (Not ALWAYS a blessing!)

There is a pretty big difference in competence between a temple assassin and the average citizen. While the Inquisition may not be able to send temple assassins every time there is a rumor, it should be quite possible to select only agents in the top 0.01% of a planets population and still have more than enough agents to investigate all these rumors.

However, my primary point is that it would be really easy to just write something similar to what you wrote if this is also the opinion of the game designers. Just like it would be really easy to remove the somewhat conflicting statements from the book.