Again - I am not denying that knowledge skill are important.

They just are too specific to pay the full price for.

You also dont buy swim and climb anymore, but athletics. 1 price for several ingredients.

And this bundle is worth the same as Common Lore (Arbites) ? Really ?

Or Scholastic Lore (Chilis) ?

That I can understand and agree with. I too feel that knowledge skills should be cheaper.

Not sure I agree with this. Many common lores are awarded free as part of their associated background. Higher levels of the skill represent more in-depth knowledge. Since the aptitudes for common lores are General and Intelligence, Nobody will be paying big experience for basic skill lvls. Scholastic characters should and do have an advantage when learning about additional lores. Whether Lore skills are as sexy as active combat skills is a matter of interpretation. To reduce the skill costs further is to reduce the value of characters who specialise in intelligence based skills. (like sages). Also, bear in mind that the common lores listed are only truly 'common' if you belong to the organization in question. Lore in the Imperium is in many ways less common than it is today. So it makes sense that it would take some effort to learn about things outside most peoples very limited area of experience. For example; Many Imperial citizens are completely unaware of what actually happened during the Horus Heresy! It is only told via legend and Allegory during Imperial Mass. Tell the average Hierophant that the Emperor was an Atheist and that his Atheism was at the heart of the "Imperial truth" and what do you think will happen? I would guess even most Inquisitors would burn you at the stake for even suggesting it! (Even though it's true!)

Again - I dont say they are useless (not sexy maybe, but also not useless).

They are too specific to cost that much.

In a worst case, to get the whole package in DH1 you needed:

> Common Lore (Imperial Creed)

> Scholastic Lore (Imperial Creed)

> Common Lore (Ecclesiarchy)

> Language (High Gothic)

> Secret Tongue (Ecclesiarchy)

> Ciphers (Ecclesiarchy)

Thats a ton of XP, which would be easily and elegantly bundled into Specialist (Ecclesiarchy).

The SPecialist Talent offered a very good bundling option, that also made sense in fluff.

And the Remembrance skill and Linguistic skill were used for tests inside your specializations.

For a knowledge-based character, I think grabbing Infused Knowledge early (possibly even with starting xp) is currently a really attractive choice.

I don't know if that means knowledge skills need merging more, but currently if I was genning a Sage, I'd grab Infused Knowledge first thing.

Not sure if it has come up yet but the week one updates has all common lore skills replacing Knowledge with general.

Not sure if it has come up yet but the week one updates has all common lore skills replacing Knowledge with general.

A welcome change in my opinion.

Isnt it the other way round ?

In my original Beta2, theres General already...did they mean to swap it with knowledge ?

I still thin CL should have General - General and SL/FL General Knowledge

Or re-introduce Remembrance with the Specialist Talent.

Yeah, the Common Lores should be General / General to keep costs low. I mean, it is called "Common" for a reason right?

And I dont think its easier for a Sage to learn Common Lore...

Yeah, the Common Lores should be General / General to keep costs low. I mean, it is called "Common" for a reason right?

Yeah, the Common Lores should be General / General to keep costs low. I mean, it is called "Common" for a reason right?

No not really.

Ask a Death Worlder about Sororitas and you might get information about a six-legged lizard-like creature that eats peoples faces in the middle of the day.

Ask a Feudal World commoner who the law enforcement is and they point to the planet-spanning traditional Yakuza clan.

Ask a fool what a Space Marine is and he’s likely to tell you it’s a ‘marine’ that takes up ‘space’.

Common only means that the information ‘can’ be found with relative ease if one is looking for it (and has at least ‘some‘ access to information on the Imperium), it doesn’t mean its so common everyone already knows it already. What is ‘common knowledge’ in one place is considered totally unknown elsewhere, and for knowing something on one planet makes you a genius while being a dunce on another.

I'm not saying that Common Lore is common for everyone, after all, you have to buy the skill. It's just common within the scope of an Inquisitorial Agent. Common Lore should also be much easier to find for agents of the Inquisition. However, out of all of the types of Lore, Common should be the cheapest and by far the easiest to obtain.

I like the 1.0 Beta solution much better. Remembrance Skill + Specialist Talent and you are good to go.

I like the 1.0 Beta solution much better. Remembrance Skill + Specialist Talent and you are good to go.

I second that.

I like the 1.0 Beta solution much better. Remembrance Skill + Specialist Talent and you are good to go.

I second that.

Thirded

I like the 1.0 Beta solution much better. Remembrance Skill + Specialist Talent and you are good to go.

I second that.

Thirded

Fourthed.

I'm not saying that Common Lore is common for everyone, after all, you have to buy the skill. It's just common within the scope of an Inquisitorial Agent. Common Lore should also be much easier to find for agents of the Inquisition. However, out of all of the types of Lore, Common should be the cheapest and by far the easiest to obtain.

But in most cases you don't. Almost all the staring backgrounds provide common lore for the relevant organization for free! This makes sense since (for example) a beginning Arbitrator will certainly NOT know the ins and outs of Imperial law but he certainly knows basic arrest procedures, Rankings within the Arbites and other such "Common" knowledge within the organization. That doesn't mean he knows much at all about the IG or the Astartes! So most characters will either be searching for knowledge outside their field or getting more indepth knowledge within it. Things like making your arrest stick without a confession if using the above example.

I'm gonna throw a complete spanner in the works here. This is one of the reasons I liked DH1's split of skills between 'general' and 'advanced' which has since been removed. What it meant was that in practice a general knowledge skills could always be attempted at a -20 like any other skills, but a forbidden knowledge or specialist knowledge had to be possessed by the character in order to even attempt the test. This meant that there was a great deal of worth in having characters with these skills.

Another good way to do it is to make it that there are certain times when the roll is required to be taken regardless of the skill being possessed by the character or not. If they fail the roll feed them false information (its usually a good idea to have this mapped as an 'alternate route' in your adventure). Have them kill the wrong person or accidentally reveal something important to the wrong man. At first you can just use it to make them look foolish, but after a while the groups complete lack of intelligence towards any problem that doesn't involve combat can come back to hurt them in both plot and mechanics. The influence system plays right into this btw, Mr Inquisitor would love to give you that nice shiny boltgun, but he's worried you can't be trusted with it since you misidentified the sigil or House Orlock for that of the serrated Query and shot the arch duke...

I also find its a good idea to regularly force them to split up, which means that it becomes a shared responsibility to have knowledges incase the designated 'lore master' isn't there at the right time. Also as a GM you can offer the players reductions on knowledges for certain things. I frequently offer reductions on forbidden lores to players who read heretical texts. This kind of thing generates plot guys!

One of the most interesting character's I've ever had was an player who built an adept in DH1 with the 'Thy Name I keep' elite advance, using it for the power 'Show me... everything...' (Player counts as having ALL knowledge skills, and any knowledge skills he actually has can be re-rolled on tests). Not only was he invaluable to the party, but him carrying a deamon around in him became the focus of a huge part of the plot.

You guys are all talking carrot to make them comply. I tend to lean more towards 'stick' for not taking them

I would add that in creating a scholarly character I feel kind of paralyzed by the vast array of knowledge skills to take. Combat characters improve a single characteristic and are instantly better at every kind of combat. Scholarly characters have to take literally dozens of skills in order to have generalizable knowledge. I really REALLY preferred the old betas system, which just had a single list of specializations and a single knowledge skill to upgrade. Those specializations were also broadly applicable to every skill, which allows you to have an otherwise dumb guardsman who nonetheless knows a lot about Xenos from his time spent killing them. Having that as a specialization talent also gives more meaning to having it be a part of all of the backgrounds, especially for low Intelligence characters.

Here is how I think knowledge should be run in the game:

Bring back the single remembrance skill and use different characteristics for it. Base the knowledge off of people's backgrounds in terms of what they can roll for

Have all of the specialties grant a +10 bonus to ANY roll to which they apply. Limit the number of specialties you can have to your Int Bonus.

I would add that in creating a scholarly character I feel kind of paralyzed by the vast array of knowledge skills to take. Combat characters improve a single characteristic and are instantly better at every kind of combat. Scholarly characters have to take literally dozens of skills in order to have generalizable knowledge. I really REALLY preferred the old betas system, which just had a single list of specializations and a single knowledge skill to upgrade. Those specializations were also broadly applicable to every skill, which allows you to have an otherwise dumb guardsman who nonetheless knows a lot about Xenos from his time spent killing them. Having that as a specialization talent also gives more meaning to having it be a part of all of the backgrounds, especially for low Intelligence characters.

Here is how I think knowledge should be run in the game:

Bring back the single remembrance skill and use different characteristics for it. Base the knowledge off of people's backgrounds in terms of what they can roll for

Have all of the specialties grant a +10 bonus to ANY roll to which they apply. Limit the number of specialties you can have to your Int Bonus.

I like this suggestion. I was a fan of the old beta's Knowledge/Specialty system as well, and I think it has a lot of potential.

It was not only a good solution, it also made sense.

If a character gets some experience in a certain area (like the eccelsiarchy), it is very likely that he gets a whole bunch of knowledge, including linguistic abilities that are common there (e.g. High Gothic).

So these packages in the shape of the specialist talents were a good improvement, combined with Remembrance / Linguistics.

I would add that in creating a scholarly character I feel kind of paralyzed by the vast array of knowledge skills to take. Combat characters improve a single characteristic and are instantly better at every kind of combat. Scholarly characters have to take literally dozens of skills in order to have generalizable knowledge. I really REALLY preferred the old betas system, which just had a single list of specializations and a single knowledge skill to upgrade. Those specializations were also broadly applicable to every skill, which allows you to have an otherwise dumb guardsman who nonetheless knows a lot about Xenos from his time spent killing them. Having that as a specialization talent also gives more meaning to having it be a part of all of the backgrounds, especially for low Intelligence characters.

Here is how I think knowledge should be run in the game:

Bring back the single remembrance skill and use different characteristics for it. Base the knowledge off of people's backgrounds in terms of what they can roll for

Have all of the specialties grant a +10 bonus to ANY roll to which they apply. Limit the number of specialties you can have to your Int Bonus.

I agree at inconceivable levels.

Ill chime in support for remembrance and specialists skills.

I also find the int bonus limiton on number of specialists skills interesting!

Ill chime in support for remembrance and specialists skills.

I also find the int bonus limiton on number of specialists skills interesting!

Yes, this is a good cap, which would give IntB a little more use.

+1 for fewer skills.

+1 for fewer skills.

And while at it - merge intimidate & interrogation and dodge/parry (evade) again.