+1 for fewer skills.

And while at it - merge intimidate & interrogation and dodge/parry (evade) again.

Maybe an hybridation of both skill systems would be good. Keep the Aptitudes but use the 21 old beta skills. Might have some work to balance aptitudes, tho.

Its just about 5 skills that arent merged now:

> Intimidate/Interrogate ---> Intimidate

> Remembrance & Specialist talents instead of Lores

> Dodge/Parry --> Evade

> Sleight of hand/Security --> Subterfuge

> Awareness/Scrutiny --> Observe

I think, the Remembrance part is the most important though...the others are ok if merged, but not really necessary that much.

I'd prefer Dodge & parry combined as Evade to make parry less of an additional cost for the obligatory dodge though.

Its just about 5 skills that arent merged now:

> Intimidate/Interrogate ---> Intimidate

> Remembrance & Specialist talents instead of Lores

> Dodge/Parry --> Evade

> Sleight of hand/Security --> Subterfuge

> Awareness/Scrutiny --> Observe

I think, the Remembrance part is the most important though...the others are ok if merged, but not really necessary that much.

I'd prefer Dodge & parry combined as Evade to make parry less of an additional cost for the obligatory dodge though.

I dunno, I think you need to be very careful about limiting the amount of skills to much. WoD/nWoD does this and it leads to some very strange anomalies, like someone who is good at lying to crowds is also great at playing the guitar just because they both come under 'perform'. That doesn't come across as a game breaking example, but you get my meaning I'm sure.

Right - but bring back Remembrance+Specialist and Evade (Dodge+Parry) at least.

I dunno, I think you need to be very careful about limiting the amount of skills to much. WoD/nWoD does this and it leads to some very strange anomalies, like someone who is good at lying to crowds is also great at playing the guitar just because they both come under 'perform'. That doesn't come across as a game breaking example, but you get my meaning I'm sure.

We had the Specialist talent to avoid such phenomena.

I dunno, I think you need to be very careful about limiting the amount of skills to much. WoD/nWoD does this and it leads to some very strange anomalies, like someone who is good at lying to crowds is also great at playing the guitar just because they both come under 'perform'. That doesn't come across as a game breaking example, but you get my meaning I'm sure.

We had the Specialist talent to avoid such phenomena.

So does WoD It doesn't.

I actually agree with remembrance as a skill. I just don't like the merging of things like 'parry/dodge' into 'evade' or 'sleight of hand' and 'security' (my ability to pickpocket and pick a lock should be separate, but would probably both be AG + 'sunterfuge' using GauntZero's terms). I think there is a point where mass group of skills can really start to hurt the game if you want anything vaguely roleplay like from it.

If not just play HoL, six stats and skills like 'whining at the GM til you get what you want'

I actually agree with remembrance as a skill. I just don't like the merging of things like 'parry/dodge' into 'evade' or 'sleight of hand' and 'security' (my ability to pickpocket and pick a lock should be separate, but would probably both be AG + 'sunterfuge' using GauntZero's terms) . I think there is a point where mass group of skills can really start to hurt the game if you want anything vaguely roleplay like from it.

This right here is an example of "Makes Sense" game design. It makes sense that someone who spent a lot of time learning how to open locks really well wouldn't be able to transfer that knowledge to picking pockets, so opening locks and picking pockets become separate skills. Likewise, an experienced free climber might not know how to swim, so those become separate skills, and so on.

The result is a system in which physical skills are broken down into many small pieces, and in order to be an athletic rogue who can get places and steal things, now you need to invest a boat load of XP into all of the disparate skills that let you do that stuff, at the expense of options that let you do other interesting things (like Shooting Good or Doing Magic).

I would prefer a system opposite of this - where I can play a competent athlete without investing in 5+ skills (climb, swim, endurance, athletics, etc.). It may not "Make Sense" that a character really good at climbing is also really good at swimming and running marathons, but it's a more playable game that way.

I'm trying to say that its important to find the balance between the two CPS. Going too far one way is a ball ache in terms of charactergen and xp (like say, SLA industries), then go too far in the other direction and you kill immersion.

I'm trying to say that its important to find the balance between the two CPS. Going too far one way is a ball ache in terms of charactergen and xp (like say, SLA industries), then go too far in the other direction and you kill immersion.

Your example explicitly said that picking pockets and picking locks should be two separate skills. I disagree with that level of separateness. Then again, I don't really give a **** about so-called immersion, which seems to be a minority point of view here.

What game does SLA make, and why is it burdensome?

I think continuing exactly what should and shouldn't be merged on every level will be too subjective here. We'll just have to agree to disagree on the fine details I think. However even though you don't give a **** about immersion (which is fine) remember that for some of us its the main draw of the hobby, so it can't be discounted entirely.

SLA Industries is the name of the game, not the company. Its a dystopian post-cyberpunk type job. Its burdensome for all the reasons we agree going too far in the 'makes-sense' (to coin your phrase) of game design can become troublesome. That and its combat turn is split into 5 different initiative steps, which can be acted on or not depending on your agility score. Its probably easy enough to download if you're interested in an example of good setting/bad game design.

Eeegads, SLA Industries! I have a 1st printing of that on my shelf! Dave Allsop and Jared Earle are really cool guys, had a drink with them once, would love to again.

SLA does suffer from what could..lightly..be termed terrible initiative. A phenomenal setting

ruined diminished by clunky mechanics. Still worth playing though!

Do steer clear of dynamic initiative though, it's just a colossal pain in the ass. Adds horrendous overheads I find.

I know I'm late to the discussion here, but I also want to state for the record that I much preferred the original Remembrance + Specialty Talent; not only because it cut down on the clutter of having so many Lore skills, but because the talents could be applied to other things like Linguistics (which makes no sense to me in the current incarnation) and Tech Use.