Hi all, I wanted to get some feedback on a few areas we're looking at addressing in future updates (Update #1 just went up as a note). Don't feel this is all we're looking at of course though.

Character Generation: Several testers have suggested lowering the overall starting characteristics and increasing the starting experience points. We’d like folks to try starting with 20 rather than 25 for generating characteristics, with the points allocation system using a base 25 (+ characteristics at 30, – ones at 20). Players can also increase their starting xp to 600. Try these out and let us know how it goes.

Adeptus Arbites: We’re thinking of change their starting talents to include both Shock and Solid Projectile Weapon Training. Try this out and let us know if it’s making new Arbitrators too powerful, especially in early games.

Some possible Role changes:

• Change Assassin Role Aptitudes to Agility, Ballistic Skill or Weapon Skill, Fieldcraft, Finesse, Perception
• Change Assassin Role Bonus to Sure Kill: In addition to the normal uses of Fate points (see page 245), an Assassin who inflicts damage in an attack can spend a Fate point to add his degrees of success to the damage inflicted.
• Change Chirugeon to Fieldcraft, Intelligence, Knowledge, Strength, Toughness
• Change Chirurgeon Role bonus: Dedicated Healer: In addition to the normal uses of Fate points (see page 245), when a Chirurgeon character fails in a test to provide First Aid, he spend one Fate point to automatically succeed with the degrees of success equal to his Intelligence bonus.

Untouchables and Evasion are areas we’re strongly looking over as a note. More to come on those.

A very big thanks to everyone who has participated in the testing, especially those who've emailed in their game reports.

-Tim

Hey Tim,

Thanks for the response and for giving us some direction. I appreciate it!

I appreciate the transparency in what the team's thoughts are. More of this kind of thing would be great.

I dont like the idea - I do like the information flow though.

Time permitting (I'd love to do nothing but read and post all day here), we'll certainly be doing more of this.

-Tim

Just one thing: the starting experience boost should be much higher. Me and my 2.0 Beta testing group talked about this yesterday and we all agreed in an optimal starting xp value of ~2000. A high starting xp would be very helpful as players often have to take expensive advancements (advancements with one or no Aptitudes) to make their characters viable.

"Sure Kill"

This should be a general option for called shots to make them meanwhile (without need of a fate point).

If the assassin got this for general attacks, this would lead to inconsistancies with multiple attacks where DoS make more hits...

Just one thing: the starting experience boost should be much higher. Me and my 2.0 Beta testing group talked about this yesterday and we all agreed in an optimal starting xp value of ~2000. A high starting xp would be very helpful as players often have to take expensive advancements (advancements with one or no Aptitudes) to make their characters viable.

This would balance it out, XP-wise. But in this case I'd also like to see 1 more possible characteristic increase (5 instead of 4). Imo, DH is not a game for amateurs, but for acolytes which are chosen because they have some kind of use for the inquisition and are rather outstanding in their usual environment.

Just one thing: the starting experience boost should be much higher. Me and my 2.0 Beta testing group talked about this yesterday and we all agreed in an optimal starting xp value of ~2000. A high starting xp would be very helpful as players often have to take expensive advancements (advancements with one or no Aptitudes) to make their characters viable.

2000 might be a bit high to start, but 4-600 starting XP just doesn't go as far in DH2 as it did in DH1. The starting DH1 tables are full of 100 and 200 XP options and you get very few of those in DH2.

Lowering overall stats, bad. For reasons that I have never understood DH1 was "random shmuck somehow gets recruited by the Inquisition" ... a situation which ultimately, IMO, lead to the absurdity that has Ascension where "real Throne Agents" were made into superheroes. To my mind, the better answer is somewhere in between when DH Acolytes are exceptional but not godlike agents of the Imperium... rather like Rogue Traders. The 25+ starting stats goes a long way to making that happen.

600 exp isn't enough to make the least bit of difference especially with Roles not starting with the skills and/or talents that are essential to those roles.

Arbites starting with two weapon training talents won't break the game... as long as everyone else gets a decent number of weapon training talents too. Really, DH1 characters started with more weapon training than this. WTF?

Lowering overall stats, bad. For reasons that I have never understood DH1 was "random shmuck somehow gets recruited by the Inquisition" ... a situation which ultimately, IMO, lead to the absurdity that has Ascension where "real Throne Agents" were made into superheroes. To my mind, the better answer is somewhere in between when DH Acolytes are exceptional but not godlike agents of the Imperium... rather like Rogue Traders. The 25+ starting stats goes a long way to making that happen.

600 exp isn't enough to make the least bit of difference especially with Roles not starting with the skills and/or talents that are essential to those roles.

Arbites starting with two weapon training talents won't break the game... as long as everyone else gets a decent number of weapon training talents too. Really, DH1 characters started with more weapon training than this. WTF?

Keep in mind that lowering overall stats makes a balance better for a unified system, otherwise stats for normal humans start to encroach on Space Marine starting stats at high ranks.

Keep in mind that lowering overall stats makes a balance better for a unified system, otherwise stats for normal humans start to encroach on Space Marine starting stats at high ranks.

Not really a concern as long as Space Marines have Unnatural Strength and Toughness as the main thing setting them apart from mortals, and as long as we remember Acolytes are exceptional (again, a conceit that's been there ever since 1e core, even if the rules didn't really live up to the hype) rather than "normal".

It still doesn't make sense that a veteran human would have the same starting strength or toughness of an augmented beginner Space Marine. Unnatural or not it's still the same ability score (60)

If anything, characters should top out at 60.

Lowering overall stats, bad. For reasons that I have never understood DH1 was "random shmuck somehow gets recruited by the Inquisition" ... a situation which ultimately, IMO, lead to the absurdity that has Ascension where "real Throne Agents" were made into superheroes. To my mind, the better answer is somewhere in between when DH Acolytes are exceptional but not godlike agents of the Imperium... rather like Rogue Traders. The 25+ starting stats goes a long way to making that happen.

600 exp isn't enough to make the least bit of difference especially with Roles not starting with the skills and/or talents that are essential to those roles.

Arbites starting with two weapon training talents won't break the game... as long as everyone else gets a decent number of weapon training talents too. Really, DH1 characters started with more weapon training than this. WTF?

I have addressed this extensively on another thread so I won't bother to repeat it here. (It's in "Not convinced" if anyone is interested.) I like the change to 20+2d10 for stats. 600 xp is an Ok starting point but Gm's should optionally feel free to let their players to start with more if iit suits their game. I believe that acolytes are "average joe schmucks" that may go on to greater things! I also believe DH stands as the Baseline for the rest of 40k Role-playing so these stat levels are appropriate.

BTW: @ Tim:

The communication on where you guys are wanting to go is VERY welcome! Keep it coming!

Lowering overall stats, bad. For reasons that I have never understood DH1 was "random shmuck somehow gets recruited by the Inquisition" ... a situation which ultimately, IMO, lead to the absurdity that has Ascension where "real Throne Agents" were made into superheroes. To my mind, the better answer is somewhere in between when DH Acolytes are exceptional but not godlike agents of the Imperium... rather like Rogue Traders. The 25+ starting stats goes a long way to making that happen.

600 exp isn't enough to make the least bit of difference especially with Roles not starting with the skills and/or talents that are essential to those roles.

Arbites starting with two weapon training talents won't break the game... as long as everyone else gets a decent number of weapon training talents too. Really, DH1 characters started with more weapon training than this. WTF?

I have addressed this extensively on another thread so I won't bother to repeat it here. (It's in "Not convinced" if anyone is interested.) I like the change to 20+2d10 for stats. 600 xp is an Ok starting point but Gm's should optionally feel free to let their players to start with more if iit suits their game. I believe that acolytes are "average joe schmucks" that may go on to greater things! I also believe DH stands as the Baseline for the rest of 40k Role-playing so these stat levels are appropriate.

It's a matter of perspective. When I play Dark Heresy, I was Eisenhorn the Roleplaying Game. I want to be playing characters like Amos, Bequin, Bentacore, Fischig and Nayl. Of those, only Bequin and Fischig could be called "average joe schmucks" and even then Fischig was an experienced Chastener when he joined Eisenhorn (and Bequin, frankly, reads like an NPC who got turned into a PC to accommodate a new player).

Other than the fact that Dark Heresy 1 was "average joe schmucks" and the "Baseline for the rest of 40K Role-playing" I see no reason for this position. I also see DH2 as a fine opportunity to do away with both of those errors.

Kudos for the communication. I'm glad to hear they are taking another look at Untouchables and Evasion.

A clear description of how competent a starting Acolyte is supposed to be would be nice. It seems to be a frequent topic of discussion. If starting characters are supposed to be somewhat average citizens 2d10+20 and few XP are fine. If they are supposed to be hand picked and highly competent then the starting stats seems comically low.

Guys his post said "try it and see how it works". How about we do that? Keep track of what you roll and how often you're successful.

What is there to try ?

I played DH1 and RT --> RT played out much better (more realistic chances on tests; the power level felt more right at RT).

In no way should DH go back to this +20.

As for the Space Marine Comparison. Before they are being turned into Space Marines (with training, geneseed and conditioning), they also ARE human, even if best of their kind.

As SM have all their implant bonus (incl. Unn. T / Str) and also starting talents, and a +30 instead of +25, that explains the difference quite well for me.

And we are talking about a Rank1 Space Marine here.

What is there to try ?

I played DH1 and RT --> RT played out much better (more realistic chances on tests; the power level felt more right at RT).

In no way should DH go back to this +20.

As for the Space Marine Comparison. Before they are being turned into Space Marines (with training, geneseed and conditioning), they also ARE human, even if best of their kind.

As SM have all their implant bonus (incl. Unn. T / Str) and also starting talents, and a +30 instead of +25, that explains the difference quite well for me.

And we are talking about a Rank1 Space Marine here.

Inquisition agents likely do not come from the same stock as Space Marine candidates. Native people on Space Marine home worlds are a no-no to recruit from.

Yes - but not every inhabitant of a Space Marine homeworld is superhuman.

The exact "level" of the population can have a great variety across the different chapters.

Also the way the chapters chose their recruits is very different from chapter to chapter.

Usually one would think they take the best out of their options (whatever that might mean) - which is quite well shown by the +30 on the characteristics. This means, compared to the current beta, those aspirants still are better than acolytes.

Afterwards they get their geneseed (with separate benefits), training (starting skills & talents) and conditioning (starting skills & talents; no fear at all).

Perfectly fine if you ask me, even with +25 for RT and DH2.

I'm with the +20 crowd, but with the following conditions:

- All characters gain +5 to 3 characteristics from their home worlds. No negative modifiers though. So you will have 3 +25 and 6(7) +20 characteristics.

- Fool-proof characteristic rolling. For example you roll 2D10 ten times -> discard the lowest roll -> repeat this twice more -> choose the pool you like -> distribute rolls amongst characteristics.

- Much more starting xp, So you can just buy characteristic advancements.

The problem with generally high starting characteristics is that they sometimes don't make much sense: a feral world barbarian won't have high Fellowship and a skin-and-bones hiver won't have high Strength or Toughness.

Hi all, I wanted to get some feedback on a few areas we're looking at addressing in future updates (Update #1 just went up as a note). Don't feel this is all we're looking at of course though.

First of all, thank you for communicating. That makes a huge difference. Possibly not to you, but certainly to us.

Secondly, while I obviously haven't had the time to test all of the changes yet, at a glance they seem rather sensible. Cudos.

Thirdly: Would it be possible to include a sort of "mission statement" for the game?

The vibe I got off of DH1 core was always 'Call of Cthulhu - In Space!' which ofcourse failed because one of the main points of call is that you can't win in a fight against an Old One or an Elder God, and theWH40K setting is full of guns designed to let you do exactly something like that.

I got much less of this vibe from books actually published by FFG, but I think that's what's really causing these debates about base stats.

Fourthly: I hate your forum software very much, thank you. Could you please hunt down whomever wrote it and condem him to an eternity in the gardens of Nurgle, please? And get some nicer (functional) forum software while you're at it please?

It feels like every time I'm trying to post something, especially if I'm trying to quote something, I have to fight the software. This cuts my input rates by about 50% or so and is making my wrists act up again. Sorry to bother you about this, but it matters, to me atleast.

Having generated characters under both schemes, I prefer the ones created with 25+2d10 and 500xp.

First thing to note; the extra 100 xp doesn't really make much of a difference. If you want to keep a consistant power level, I'd suggests 500 extra xp (that is, a total of 1000xp).

Second thing; characters created using 20+2d10 and 600 xp feel like typical Guardsmen, Outcasts, Priests, Arbites, etc. rather than exceptional Guardsmen, Outcasts or Priests. Which of these players should start as is a matter of personal preference (my preference is for exceptional individuals for Inquisitorial Agents, but I know some people like the idea of starting at normal and becoming exceptional over time)

The other changes you are considering sound very good; especially the adjustments to the Assassin's Aptitudes. I don't think allowing Arbites to use both Shock Mauls and Solid Projectile weapons out of character gen is likely to be a problem (characters are likely to focus of advancing either BS or WS anyway) and it seems odd to me that any given Arbiter wouldn't know how to use both.