I was looking over the Version 2.0 of beta rules and am pleased with a good bit of it. I liked the reversion to some of the old system yet still maintaining the innovative ideas 2nd edition is bringing.

I do have a complaint from cursory overview.... Hot-Shot Packs are 1 shot devices that have a decent pen (4 if I recall) for a one shot round. Perfect for that needed Long-Las and Lasgun. These Hot-Shot Lasgun/Pistols are Pen 7! I imagine this has to be a numpad typo, from the description they are to be like the hellguns stormtroopers used. Which should be Pen 4. I was hoping that others have seen this.

Thanks,

A new beta 2nd Edition User

Hell weapons have been Pen 7 since they started to have AP 3 in the tabletop game, mon. They're supposed to be laser in steroids, with the drawback of the twenty kilo backpack.

The thing penetrates straight through light power armour for goodness sake! Perhaps the item should be "Rare"? I can't imagine the hot-shots requiring a backpack as the other hell weapons.

My apologies I was under the impression Hellguns were AP 4 not AP 3 which is Pen 6-7 in Dark Heresy Terms. If that is the case. I know its used by Kaskrin Squads and other elite troops.

My apologies I was under the impression Hellguns were AP 4 not AP 3 which is Pen 6-7 in Dark Heresy Terms. If that is the case. I know its used by Kaskrin Squads and other elite troops.

Hot-shot lasguns/-las pistols are AP 3 in the curent Codex.

It is not called a Hellgun in the codex, though the text for Hot-shot Lasgun does refer to it as such.

Codex Imp Guard, p. 46 - no references to p. 46 in the errata.

AP 3 would be Pen 7-8 i DH terms, agreed?

PS: There might be a different hellgun in the GK Codex, no clue about that then.

Isnt a hot-shot charge pack something different than a hellgun entirely ?

A hellgun has kind of a hot-charged high-enegy package to support it, but I thought that the said hot-shot charge pack was only a 1-shot-magazine for Lasers...

No ?

Isnt a hot-shot charge pack something different than a hellgun entirely ?

A hellgun has kind of a hot-charged high-enegy package to support it, but I thought that the said hot-shot charge pack was only a 1-shot-magazine for Lasers...

No ?

Absolutely correct.

Did you check the reference provided, to the imp guard codex which mixes the two concepts?

As I dont have a codex of the tabletop, I cannot follow the reference so far.

It was just my understanding of the past DH publications so far.

Would you say though a Pen 7 is too high, as Power Weapons are Pen 6 and clearly have the same AP 3 in the newest edition of Warhammer 40k Tabletop. Just I dont feel comfortable with Hot-shot Lasgun/Laspistol (aka Hellguns/Hellpistols) being Pen 7. I feel its too much. Anybody else agree that at least they should be comparable to Power Swords?

Isnt a hot-shot charge pack something different than a hellgun entirely ?

A hellgun has kind of a hot-charged high-enegy package to support it, but I thought that the said hot-shot charge pack was only a 1-shot-magazine for Lasers...

No ?

And Yes Gaunt the Hot-Shot Pack is a 1 use clip whereas the Hellgun/Hellpistol (Hot-Shot Lasgun/Laspistol) is different. The thing is in the fluff Hot-Shot Packs can penetrate Power Armor in the right places.... so Pen 4 is nice and seems appropriate.

You all are talking about what "feels right" when discussing game mechanics, which is exactly the wrong way to discuss mechanics.

How does it's current Pen value affect the game? A space marine will still have 6-8 TB reduction on top of his armor, so does lowering the Pen to what "feels right" make the gun unable to do damage at all? Have you considered that at all?

Do some math before you go changing numbers around.

You all are talking about what "feels right" when discussing game mechanics, which is exactly the wrong way to discuss mechanics.

How does it's current Pen value affect the game? A space marine will still have 6-8 TB reduction on top of his armor, so does lowering the Pen to what "feels right" make the gun unable to do damage at all? Have you considered that at all?

Do some math before you go changing numbers around.

CPS,

When it comes to both balance and fluff quite frankly a hellgun/hellpistol should not have a higher pen than a power weapon. In fluff hell weapons do not have the armor cutting power as power weapons and on tabletop they are the same AP... Im saying they need to be the same as ranged weapons are easier to do damage with than melee and if a hellgun can semiauto with a higher pen compared to a power sword which puts you in harms way there I believe an issue. This is my opinion, I am welcome to it, just as you are welcome to yours. Being condescending does nothing except take your point an nullify it.

Just a small note: hellpistols/hellguns and hot-shot laspistols/hot-shot lasguns are not the same kind of weapons. It is a copy/paste mistake in the IG codex. Hell- weapons are long-ranged, very high RoF laser weapons, the Imperial equivalents of Eldar lasblasters. Hot-shot weapons are short-range, high-power laser weapons, effectively juiced-up lasguns.

"Sometimes known as hellguns and hellpistols, “hot-shot”

I agree that penetration 7 is way too high.

Generally I think that penetration values for most weapons are much too high. In most cases where a high penetration weapon is involved the target may as well just be naked, because armor does absolutely nothing to increase survivability. This feels wrong in my opinion.

^^That's just plain wrong. There was an internet debate on the topic soon after the IG codex came out and I think Curddace (the codex writer) himself said that hellguns and hot-shot guns were two different weapon categories.

You all are talking about what "feels right" when discussing game mechanics, which is exactly the wrong way to discuss mechanics.

How does it's current Pen value affect the game? A space marine will still have 6-8 TB reduction on top of his armor, so does lowering the Pen to what "feels right" make the gun unable to do damage at all? Have you considered that at all?

Do some math before you go changing numbers around.

CPS,

When it comes to both balance and fluff quite frankly a hellgun/hellpistol should not have a higher pen than a power weapon. In fluff hell weapons do not have the armor cutting power as power weapons and on tabletop they are the same AP... Im saying they need to be the same as ranged weapons are easier to do damage with than melee and if a hellgun can semiauto with a higher pen compared to a power sword which puts you in harms way there I believe an issue. This is my opinion, I am welcome to it, just as you are welcome to yours. Being condescending does nothing except take your point an nullify it.

You mistake critical questions for condescension. Have you done the math for the average damage inflicted by these weapons with your proposed changes? If you have not, your opinion is worthless - you'd be talking out your ass. I have to give FFG the benefit of the doubt and assume they have some idea of how the math for their own weapon tables work out. I doubt very much that most people here have done the same work to fully understand the system they put forward. You can't just go changing numbers willy-nilly - you need to know how the system as a whole works.

If you have done the math, I'd love to see it, and your argument for why your change is an improvement.

It isnt the first time a canon conflict has occurred.

I really wish people would stop talking about the stupid, self-conflicting fiction of this fictional world in the god damned MECHANICS subforum.

You all are talking about what "feels right" when discussing game mechanics, which is exactly the wrong way to discuss mechanics.

How does it's current Pen value affect the game? A space marine will still have 6-8 TB reduction on top of his armor, so does lowering the Pen to what "feels right" make the gun unable to do damage at all? Have you considered that at all?

Do some math before you go changing numbers around.

CPS,

When it comes to both balance and fluff quite frankly a hellgun/hellpistol should not have a higher pen than a power weapon. In fluff hell weapons do not have the armor cutting power as power weapons and on tabletop they are the same AP... Im saying they need to be the same as ranged weapons are easier to do damage with than melee and if a hellgun can semiauto with a higher pen compared to a power sword which puts you in harms way there I believe an issue. This is my opinion, I am welcome to it, just as you are welcome to yours. Being condescending does nothing except take your point an nullify it.

You mistake critical questions for condescension. Have you done the math for the average damage inflicted by these weapons with your proposed changes? If you have not, your opinion is worthless - you'd be talking out your ass. I have to give FFG the benefit of the doubt and assume they have some idea of how the math for their own weapon tables work out. I doubt very much that most people here have done the same work to fully understand the system they put forward. You can't just go changing numbers willy-nilly - you need to know how the system as a whole works.

If you have done the math, I'd love to see it, and your argument for why your change is an improvement.

Are we attempting accuracy to warhammer 40k or just balancing mechanics. Because to gain one is to forsake the other in some way. You cannot have both because the very nature of Warhammer 40k is unbalanced and unfair. Usually not in your favor. It is clear that a Hellgun/Hellpistol is AP 3, we all agree. In generic terms this translates to Pen 6-7 in DH/DH2. A Power Sword is also AP 3. If you think for half a second that a Hellgun has more armor cutting power than a Power Sword then thats your call. I have an issue with Hellguns/Hellpistols being spitting distance of plasma weapons in DH/DH2 when Plasma is AP2. I play DH/DH2 for the Role-play and accuracy to the lore. Now if you can refute anything I have stated go ahead. The pen of ONE weapon is not going to affect the game mechanically, but it does insert accuracy into the weapons as far as the lore is concerned.

The pen of ONE weapon is not going to affect the game mechanically, but it does insert accuracy into the weapons as far as the lore is concerned.

This is a very silly comment, honestly. If anything, changing ONE weapon is the most risky thing for balance and mechanics. It can easily lead to grossly overpowered or underpowered weapons. You really need to consider the armoury as a whole when making changes if you don't want to create useless or 'must have' items.

The pen of ONE weapon is not going to affect the game mechanically, but it does insert accuracy into the weapons as far as the lore is concerned.

This is a very silly comment, honestly. If anything, changing ONE weapon is the most risky thing for balance and mechanics. It can easily lead to grossly overpowered or underpowered weapons. You really need to consider the armoury as a whole when making changes if you don't want to create useless or 'must have' items.

This is precisely what I'm talking about. Make your changes without looking at the whole system and all of the sudden you've got weapons that are literally useless and weapons that you never have a reason not to use.

I would rather have a mechanically solid game. If players having access to an armory with several valid options for weaponry and solid, balanced mechanics breaks your immersion in your silly spacewizard game, that's on you. You don't need a ruleset to play pretend 40k; just go play pretend. Rules exist to balance the player action economy and a big part of that is having actual choices, rather than the illusion of choice.

To be fair, it would be helpful to have some kind of formula for doing the math. Pen Values basically muck up all of the math because the baseline is damage, and pen does not neatly translate to damage due to differing target armors. In essence, you would have to run the math for every weapon for every situation from armor 1-10. And, in order to be realistic, you would have to run the math for every weapon for armor 1-10. I have a feeling that FFG didn't actually do this and just go off tabletop values and see how they work in play rather than checking the math.

The pen of ONE weapon is not going to affect the game mechanically, but it does insert accuracy into the weapons as far as the lore is concerned.

This is a very silly comment, honestly. If anything, changing ONE weapon is the most risky thing for balance and mechanics. It can easily lead to grossly overpowered or underpowered weapons. You really need to consider the armoury as a whole when making changes if you don't want to create useless or 'must have' items.

To be honest I cannot stand power gamers or those who misuse mechanics. I dont mind an underpowered item that is accurate to an RP concept. This is a roleplaying game not a strategy game to out-think an opponent. We have tabletop for that. Personally a lot of people are complaining about homogenized stuff and no diversity, im saying diversity with lore accuracy is the way to go. If this goes the way of D&D 4th Ed. I will not be playing this system. I loved the original DH, yes it had some mechanical holes. I houseruled to fix it, and in the end I probably will end up doing it with this system. In the end though the system isnt going to be perfect, and its why I normally dont post on these forums. My players enjoy what I do to create a more accurate feel of the world. And in the end thats what matters.

This is precisely what I'm talking about. Make your changes without looking at the whole system and all of the sudden you've got weapons that are literally useless and weapons that you never have a reason not to use.

This is a very silly comment, honestly. If anything, changing ONE weapon is the most risky thing for balance and mechanics. It can easily lead to grossly overpowered or underpowered weapons. You really need to consider the armoury as a whole when making changes if you don't want to create useless or 'must have' items.

The pen of ONE weapon is not going to affect the game mechanically, but it does insert accuracy into the weapons as far as the lore is concerned.

I would rather have a mechanically solid game. If players having access to an armory with several valid options for weaponry and solid, balanced mechanics breaks your immersion in your silly spacewizard game, that's on you. You don't need a ruleset to play pretend 40k; just go play pretend. Rules exist to balance the player action economy and a big part of that is having actual choices, rather than the illusion of choice.

And yet again you are condescending. Thats my point, you can argue a point without the need for this. You come off as angry and self-righteous, no one, and I mean no one, in this world listens to that. People usually reserve words for those who come off like you.