I agree with Radwraith. Low starting competence can be eliminated for those who don't like it by starting at a higher XP total, but if the game system has 'heroic' stats locked in on Day 1, there is no practical work-around for people who want to start small and build up.

Sure there is, it's just a little more work.

A Rogue Trader character starts with 25+2d10 for Characteristics. It would be no effort at all to say, "for this campaign we will be starting as junior crew members so everyone starts with only 20+2d10 in Characteristics." What might be harder is to have everyone start with fewer skills and talents, but really it would just be a simple matter of agreeing that a junior Rogue Trader doesn't have the Command Skill for instance.

I agree with Radwraith. Low starting competence can be eliminated for those who don't like it by starting at a higher XP total, but if the game system has 'heroic' stats locked in on Day 1, there is no practical work-around for people who want to start small and build up.

Sure there is, it's just a little more work.

A Rogue Trader character starts with 25+2d10 for Characteristics. It would be no effort at all to say, "for this campaign we will be starting as junior crew members so everyone starts with only 20+2d10 in Characteristics." What might be harder is to have everyone start with fewer skills and talents, but really it would just be a simple matter of agreeing that a junior Rogue Trader doesn't have the Command Skill for instance.

It's always easier to scale up than it is to scale down though. There is no sense in scaling down.

Guys, you're comparing stats across different game systems . They all use the same words and similar numbers, but they are entirely separate games.

Any critique of starting characteristics should be based on things that exist in Dark Heresy 2: The Beta. Don't compare to starting characters from a game published a decade ago and don't compare them to imagine Space Marine stat lines.

Guys, you're comparing stats across different game systems . They all use the same words and similar numbers, but they are entirely separate games.

I'm sorry, I have to disagree with you on that. Six months ago, you would have been right, but now DH2 Beta is once more part of the overall 40K Roleplay line. Therefore, it is reasonable to compare a Rogue Trader to a Deathwatch Space Marine to an Acolyte. Just as I can compare attributes of a d20 Modern characters to a Pathfinder character, so too can I compare the characteristics of a DH2 Beta character to a Rogue Trader. Yes, there are differences between the lines but the basic mechanics remain largely the same.

Guys, you're comparing stats across different game systems . They all use the same words and similar numbers, but they are entirely separate games.

Any critique of starting characteristics should be based on things that exist in Dark Heresy 2: The Beta. Don't compare to starting characters from a game published a decade ago and don't compare them to imagine Space Marine stat lines.

I'm with LuciusT on this one. There may have been a few tweaks and adjustments along the way, but generally having, say, 40 WS in DH2beta works out almost exactly the same as it did in DH1, and generally represents the same thing (in this particular case, someone who's quite skilled with a blade)..

Also bear in mind, We have not one but two Space Marine statlines in the beta document, so it's not even a cross-system comparison at this point.

What I'm saying is that saying DH characters should start at +20 instead of +25/30 because RT characters start at +25 and DH characters are by divine mandate less powerful is a bad reason. Leave the other systems out of it when discussing starting characteristics and focus on how the numbers play in practice, rather than in theory.

My DH1 gaming group stuck with the early stages for love of the setting only. Luck played too much of a roll and character creation was rather assembly line and rigid. Adepts often out shot the gun bunnies by accident and knife wielding assassins were often times frustrated by mere thugs.

I agree with Radwraith. Low starting competence can be eliminated for those who don't like it by starting at a higher XP total, but if the game system has 'heroic' stats locked in on Day 1, there is no practical work-around for people who want to start small and build up.

Sure there is, it's just a little more work.

A Rogue Trader character starts with 25+2d10 for Characteristics. It would be no effort at all to say, "for this campaign we will be starting as junior crew members so everyone starts with only 20+2d10 in Characteristics." What might be harder is to have everyone start with fewer skills and talents, but really it would just be a simple matter of agreeing that a junior Rogue Trader doesn't have the Command Skill for instance.

A more plausible version of this would be: Today we are playing junior crewmembers from your Rogue trader's ship. We will roll up 1st lvl DH characters and may choose from any option available to Voidborne characters. This is an approach I HAVE USED in RT and it worked out pretty well!

"Bring 5 character sheets and we'll see which one makes it to Player Character status" may be fun for you, but I would not play that game. All of the examples you posted are things I would use as character backstories - things that happened off-camera, before the game started. I'd rather play a game where the players start competent.

Challenge accepted!

I'll make 5 character sheets. I'll play out a game, or series of games, to see how each character does. All this will be posted on the Dark Heresy forum asap.

Look out for an "Average Joes" topic by me.

Well when I'm wrong, I'm wrong. Five "Average Joes" had a simple game to play but at the end of gaming I was left feeling "what was the point of that?"

Two characters did nothing.

One character blundered his way to getting himself shot.

One character was taken to a secret temple to become infected by a Genestealer.

The fifth character managed to escape and run away.

I still want some Average Joe characters. Just have to rethink how to introduce and use them.

There's a reason PCs are a cut above. Cannon fodder are cannon fodder because they lack the means to avoid dying horribly. PCs need enough of an edge to let them actually win.

There's a reason PCs are a cut above. Cannon fodder are cannon fodder because they lack the means to avoid dying horribly. PCs need enough of an edge to let them actually win.

Consider me well and truly converted.

Shocking.

If you really want average joes, I think it could be fun to have them offered as a low-level reinforcement option. Let the players send out some cannon fodder to scout out a dangerous area or act as a distraction. Make a little one-shot of it. That seems like it could be interesting enough for players who want to play out characters who are awful at what they do.

Shocking.

I know; you totally did see that happening

If you really want average joes, I think it could be fun to have them offered as a low-level reinforcement option. Let the players send out some cannon fodder to scout out a dangerous area or act as a distraction. Make a little one-shot of it. That seems like it could be interesting enough for players who want to play out characters who are awful at what they do.

Having seen them in action ( or lack of it ) I think it would be best if such a character started out as being a "wrong place wrong time" NPC who just ends up being part of the plot. Perhaps someone with knowledge/skill/buddies which the actual Acolytes need.

It is now clear that amateur sleuths get their heads blown off in 40K.....if they're lucky.

Shocking.

I know; you totally did see that happening

If you really want average joes, I think it could be fun to have them offered as a low-level reinforcement option. Let the players send out some cannon fodder to scout out a dangerous area or act as a distraction. Make a little one-shot of it. That seems like it could be interesting enough for players who want to play out characters who are awful at what they do.

Having seen them in action ( or lack of it ) I think it would be best if such a character started out as being a "wrong place wrong time" NPC who just ends up being part of the plot. Perhaps someone with knowledge/skill/buddies which the actual Acolytes need.

It is now clear that amateur sleuths get their heads blown off in 40K.....if they're lucky.

How were you defining "Average joes"? Reading your post it sounds like your players weren't really into it and that could be part of the problem!

It is now clear that amateur sleuths get their heads blown off in 40K.....if they're lucky.

I can't help but think of how much I want to read clasic amateur sleuths storys set in 40k.

How were you defining "Average joes"? Reading your post it sounds like your players weren't really into it and that could be part of the problem!

Shocking.

You can read about them on the Dark Heresy forum under "Average Joes"

They were "Citizens", with a few characterful changes, but basically civilians.

I can't help but think of how much I want to read clasic amateur sleuths storys set in 40k.

It is now clear that amateur sleuths get their heads blown off in 40K.....if they're lucky.

They would be short stories. Very short. Very, very, very short stories.

Ok, Having read the post I think I see what happened. On the bright side you have proven that PC's are, Even at first level, quite a cut above your average schmoe! It might have been interesting to have an Arbites or Acolyte (Under cover of course!) around to gently "guide" the civvies in the right direction. In this case especially Molly and Sarah who seem to have the greatest contact with the bad guys. Having an undercover agent of some type show up and question the characters might have given them reason to look more deeply (And possibly die horribly but that would still serve the story! ) In the past I used a first level party of pre-made lvl 1 DH characters to kick off a "pre-quel" to my RT game. They were a random surveyor group on a frontier world who basically found something interesting...

Anyway, I find that the Scrub level type game generally works best as a precursor to the larger campaign. When I run low level DH that's usually how I treat first level characters. This is their first encounter with whatever draws them into the attention of the Inquisitor. (I remember one being a suspect!)

Ok, Having read the post I think I see what happened. On the bright side you have proven that PC's are, Even at first level, quite a cut above your average schmoe! It might have been interesting to have an Arbites or Acolyte (Under cover of course!) around to gently "guide" the civvies in the right direction. In this case especially Molly and Sarah who seem to have the greatest contact with the bad guys. Having an undercover agent of some type show up and question the characters might have given them reason to look more deeply (And possibly die horribly but that would still serve the story! ) In the past I used a first level party of pre-made lvl 1 DH characters to kick off a "pre-quel" to my RT game. They were a random surveyor group on a frontier world who basically found something interesting...

Anyway, I find that the Scrub level type game generally works best as a precursor to the larger campaign. When I run low level DH that's usually how I treat first level characters. This is their first encounter with whatever draws them into the attention of the Inquisitor. (I remember one being a suspect!)

That is good advice and probably what I'll do for proper games. What I did just an experiment that went horrifically wrong for the five characters.

You are most welcome! You didn't go horribly wrong! You just missed where your civvies needed a little "push". Hell, Even the Avengers needed something! BTW; I like you're storytelling style!

You are most welcome! You didn't go horribly wrong! You just missed where your civvies needed a little "push". Hell, Even the Avengers needed something! BTW; I like you're storytelling style!

Thank you.

I'm a better storyteller, game planner, meglomaniac mastermind than gamer. I should stick to plotting galactic domination

I would think that the intelligence network the Inquisitor has in place in the sector, as well as any favours they can call on and local organisations they are able to co-opt, would fulfil the role of "asset". I view acolytes as being the agents the Inquisitor trusts with the power and authority of the Inquisition and feels confident enough in their abilities that they will send them out on missions unsupervised, much like how they are portrayed in "Scourge the Heretic" and "Innocence Proves Nothing".

..except that kindof goes against the Inquisitions rules, only Inquisitors have "Inquisitional Authority", Acolytes have 0 Authority in anything they didnt earn by personal achievement. An Inquisitor has to prove that he's an Inquisitor with their Inquisitional Rosette, that contains (along with a crap-ton of other things) his credentials that authorize them as such.

Acolytes possess no such thing, they cannot (without their Inquisitor's presences) command 'anything' form anyone, and indeed without any evidence to prove their connection to the Inquisition they can be executed for 'impersonating an Inquisitor". Unless an Inquisitor gives his/her/it's Rosette to the Players they cant simply throw their weight around and not expect to be ignored and shot or noticed and tortured then shot.

And if the Players lost such a power item the whole system is at greater peril than if they werent there at all!

I know this isnt how they really did it in Old Heresy or in New, but I'm just saying.

I would think that the intelligence network the Inquisitor has in place in the sector, as well as any favours they can call on and local organisations they are able to co-opt, would fulfil the role of "asset". I view acolytes as being the agents the Inquisitor trusts with the power and authority of the Inquisition and feels confident enough in their abilities that they will send them out on missions unsupervised, much like how they are portrayed in "Scourge the Heretic" and "Innocence Proves Nothing".

..except that kindof goes against the Inquisitions rules, only Inquisitors have "Inquisitional Authority", Acolytes have 0 Authority in anything they didnt earn by personal achievement. An Inquisitor has to prove that he's an Inquisitor with their Inquisitional Rosette, that contains (along with a crap-ton of other things) his credentials that authorize them as such.

Acolytes possess no such thing, they cannot (without their Inquisitor's presences) command 'anything' form anyone, and indeed without any evidence to prove their connection to the Inquisition they can be executed for 'impersonating an Inquisitor". Unless an Inquisitor gives his/her/it's Rosette to the Players they cant simply throw their weight around and not expect to be ignored and shot or noticed and tortured then shot.

And if the Players lost such a power item the whole system is at greater peril than if they werent there at all!

I know this isnt how they really did it in Old Heresy or in New, but I'm just saying.

Who's to say that, once the acolytes realize that they're working for the big I, that they don't just fake authority Nothing says that one of them can't make an Inquisitorial icon and bluff like mad about having the full backing needed. Most people would probably crap their pants when faced with such things. As long as you don't flash it to the wrong people or too often you shouldn't have a problem if your bluff being called. Of coarse, the Inquisitorial Icon could also attract the wrong kind of enemies as well.

Has anyone noticed that characters in beta2 are less competent than beta1?

While I'm late to this party I have to say that most of the things you've listed in DH1's favour (although it holds a very special place in my heart) we're the reasons I often struggled to convince my friends (many of whom adore the 40k setting) to play it.

Common quotes were 'Why the hell would the inquisition trust anything to people like us?', 'Why do I have to pay for my own equipment? Aren't we part of the most powerful organisation in the Imperium?'.

Personally I like the move to acquisition rolls for pre-game load-outs (I was using the deathwatch system prior to this beta). For the 'on mission' parts I tend to give my acolytes a stipend to bribe people and pay for rooms etc. It has another bonus too, it discourages the players from looting and robbing everything they find because everything but their 'personal' gear can get returned to the armoury between missions. I've noticed in practice (though this might just be luck with my current group) it means the players aren't scrambling to try and get more money to buy some game breaking weapon.

'Its ok, I can get a plasma rifle when we earn the right to request one'.

Anyway, I find that the Scrub level type game generally works best as a precursor to the larger campaign. When I run low level DH that's usually how I treat first level characters. This is their first encounter with whatever draws them into the attention of the Inquisitor. (I remember one being a suspect!)

Very good idea! We have done the same in other game systems.