Starting agents start with that competency though. As a group, they have inquiry, scrutiny, lore skills, weapons training, and sometimes more. They just don't have crazy combat talents.

What's telling is, your statement can apply as well to DH1 starting characters as DH2 ones.

Starting agents start with that competency though. As a group, they have inquiry, scrutiny, lore skills, weapons training, and sometimes more. They just don't have crazy combat talents.

What's telling is, your statement can apply as well to DH1 starting characters as DH2 ones.

It is indeed. What is considered "an average joe" as a rank 1 agent is actually very skilled compared to the common citizen in 40K.

Average stat of say.. 35, perhaps 40 for a few skills that may have had +5 invested as part of the 500 starting XP (DH2B1).

Rank 1 skills then have a 25-30% chance to work on a challenging test. An average Joe who-has-survived-the-horrors-that-dwell-in-the-dark-places-of-humanity-and-survived-by-grace-of-the-Emporer... Definitely!

Starting agents start with that competency though. As a group, they have inquiry, scrutiny, lore skills, weapons training, and sometimes more. They just don't have crazy combat talents.

What's telling is, your statement can apply as well to DH1 starting characters as DH2 ones.

It really doesn't.

A starting Guardsman in DH1 isn't even a private; the starting rank is "conscript". He doesn't start with Common Lore (Imperial Guard). He can't even buy Common Lore (Imperial Guard) with his starting experience. Common Lore (Imperial Guard) is a Rank 2 advance. He needs to earn the right to learn Common Lore (Imperial Guard) by attaining Rank 2, the lofty and illustrious rank of "Guard".

A starting Adept is similarly too lowly to yet be entrusted with the guarded secrets of Common Lore (Administratum). A starting Arbite is not yet trusted with the secrets of using the Shock Maul, the iconic Arbites weapon. Want to know what's going on in the Underworld? Don't ask a starting Scum, he doesn't know any more about it than you.

If a group of DH1 starting characters and a group of DH2 starting characters both walking into a bar, you know which one I reckon will draw more attention? The DH1 characters, because given where they are in their chosen careers I'm not convinced they're old enough to get served yet!

Would more xp be an ok trade off for higher stats?

Would more xp be an ok trade off for higher stats?

Probably. DH1 worked pretty alright if you just started characters at a higher level. You could also take DH2 characters and give them 20+2d10 stat generation; they'll still be more competant than DH1 characters and you'll probably end up with something that looks quite close to typical Arbites/Guardsmen/Priests rather than either DH2's "creme of the crop" feel or DH1's "work experience boy" feel.

Would more xp be an ok trade off for higher stats?

It would be a perfect trade. If you want high starting characteristics then you can always buy characteristic advancements. But if you happen to be happy with your low starting characteristics then you can spend that xp to buy something else like skills, talents and psychic powers.

Given that DH2 characters are in no way prohibited from buying ANY skill the question of competencies becomes one of choice. I agree with some others that the starting aptitudes should be tweaked though. 2d10+20 or 2d10+25 to me is largely a matter of GM choice. If you're going to go with TKG's Asset model then I would assume a pretty normal person starting out. If the team were actually candidates Identified as Potential agents by the Inquisition than I would go with the "Cream of the crop" Idea. In all cases I think it's important to Identify what the Acolytes really are to the =I=. In modern day intelligence work, there is a huge difference between an "Agent" and an "Asset". Agents are actual members of the relevant agency. These would be the Equivalent of the Inquisitor himself and his immediate retinue of advisors and specialists. (Basically, what the players would call 'Reinforcements'). Assets are those people outside the Agency that are used to accomplish specific goals. This would be where the Acolytes come in. Whether by random chance or by active recruitment they are assets. They may have the possibility of becoming agents themselves (Since that's apparently how the Inquisition recruits) but that will only be after they prove themselves worthy! The power of an Inquisitor is not just 'Given' to Anybody! To do so would be the height of irresponsibility! The Inquisition recognizes this and takes it's time screening and molding their Acolytes to see if they have the potential to progress beyond the Acolyte stage.

^Acolytes are full-blown agents running around with their Inquisitor as his/her "warband". According to GW's Inquisitor supplement at least. Also, being an Acolyte is being part of the Inquisition in all respects. The lowliest part, but still a part.

I would think that the intelligence network the Inquisitor has in place in the sector, as well as any favours they can call on and local organisations they are able to co-opt, would fulfil the role of "asset". I view acolytes as being the agents the Inquisitor trusts with the power and authority of the Inquisition and feels confident enough in their abilities that they will send them out on missions unsupervised, much like how they are portrayed in "Scourge the Heretic" and "Innocence Proves Nothing".

I would think that the intelligence network the Inquisitor has in place in the sector, as well as any favours they can call on and local organisations they are able to co-opt, would fulfil the role of "asset". I view acolytes as being the agents the Inquisitor trusts with the power and authority of the Inquisition and feels confident enough in their abilities that they will send them out on missions unsupervised, much like how they are portrayed in "Scourge the Heretic" and "Innocence Proves Nothing".

This.

That Underhive prostitute may be a valuable information source on the criminal underworld, but that's about the extent of her usefulness, and trying to push her into doing more than reporting all relevant gossip and "pillow talk" will result in a mission failed and an asset lost more often than not.

More importantly, such informants aren't PC material, because for the most part, they're just doing their day jobs all their lives, passing a report to the Inquisitor from time to time. Playing that would be boring, and playing "that, but things go south and these lowly guys have to fight tooth and nail for survival" may be first session material at best, after which they either die or get "upgraded" to actual Acolytes.

More importantly, such informants aren't PC material, because for the most part, they're just doing their day jobs all their lives, passing a report to the Inquisitor from time to time. Playing that would be boring, and playing "that, but things go south and these lowly guys have to fight tooth and nail for survival" may be first session material at best, after which they either die or get "upgraded" to actual Acolytes.

That actually sounds like an interesting idea for a one-off...

More importantly, such informants aren't PC material, because for the most part, they're just doing their day jobs all their lives, passing a report to the Inquisitor from time to time. Playing that would be boring, and playing "that, but things go south and these lowly guys have to fight tooth and nail for survival" may be first session material at best, after which they either die or get "upgraded" to actual Acolytes.

That actually sounds like an interesting idea for a one-off...

And with the current 2.0 Beta rules it wouldn't be that hopeless either. Combat is a non-issue because they would only need an automatic weapon and use Suppressive Fire and the rest is a passable challenge even for a lowly commoner.

More importantly, such informants aren't PC material, because for the most part, they're just doing their day jobs all their lives, passing a report to the Inquisitor from time to time. Playing that would be boring, and playing "that, but things go south and these lowly guys have to fight tooth and nail for survival" may be first session material at best, after which they either die or get "upgraded" to actual Acolytes.

That actually sounds like an interesting idea for a one-off...

Each character begins with their chosen profession. Upon coming to the attention of the Inquisition, and surviving for more than a couple of games, they become Acolytes appropriate to their abilities. It might require a special house rule to make them Acolytes, but that's what a good Games Master does. Anyone who was useful but rather "meh" would go into the list of "contacts" to return in a future plot.

To use some earlier examples, who are not actually characters...yet...

Billy no-mates next door: a rather unremarkable, and slightly sinister, young man whose lack of social skills could mean PARIAH tahdah. Frankly I won't be unleashing sorcerous power or opening up the gates of the Immaterium this early in a plot so his soulless nature is of no importance unless there's a psyker or two among the lowly acolytes. I'd assume that any big important psykers, or the Inquisitor, would keep their suspicions (or well founded knowledge) to themselves until the opportune moment.

Hairdresser Molly: Ok, the local gossip isn't really that useful. She can blather for Britain and charm a smelly Ogryn but that isn't really useful in the grand scheme of things. Resigned to "contact" duty.

Stripper Sarah: Beautiful, agile and very friendly, she'd have a number of skills that could lead her down the assassin route since she can, quite literally, charm the pants off most men. She's the kind of woman who can get close to the upper classes and make them very happy, while putting poison in their drinks.

Though I do like the idea of having a game of "how long will civilians last during a warp rift incursion"; when it comes to serious gaming, the Average Joes don't stay average for long. It is therefore, as you so sensibly and directly put it....

A ONE-OFF

The only time I would return to the lowliest depths of Imperial society is to recruit fresh contacts who may, or may not, make the grade and become acolytes.

More importantly, such informants aren't PC material, because for the most part, they're just doing their day jobs all their lives, passing a report to the Inquisitor from time to time. Playing that would be boring, and playing "that, but things go south and these lowly guys have to fight tooth and nail for survival" may be first session material at best, after which they either die or get "upgraded" to actual Acolytes.

That actually sounds like an interesting idea for a one-off...

Like I said, you can run one scenario with it quite easily, and it can be good. But after that, the premise fails - they are burned as informants, and it's hard to expect them to maintain the "ordinary Joe" perspective after surviving whatever went after them (seeing they work for the Inquisition, anything willing to pursue them is likely extremely scary).

"Bring 5 character sheets and we'll see which one makes it to Player Character status" may be fun for you, but I would not play that game. All of the examples you posted are things I would use as character backstories - things that happened off-camera, before the game started. I'd rather play a game where the players start competent.

"Bring 5 character sheets and we'll see which one makes it to Player Character status" may be fun for you, but I would not play that game. All of the examples you posted are things I would use as character backstories - things that happened off-camera, before the game started. I'd rather play a game where the players start competent.

Challenge accepted!

I'll make 5 character sheets. I'll play out a game, or series of games, to see how each character does. All this will be posted on the Dark Heresy forum asap.

Look out for an "Average Joes" topic by me.

"Bring 5 character sheets and we'll see which one makes it to Player Character status" may be fun for you, but I would not play that game. All of the examples you posted are things I would use as character backstories - things that happened off-camera, before the game started. I'd rather play a game where the players start competent.

Challenge accepted!

I'll make 5 character sheets. I'll play out a game, or series of games, to see how each character does. All this will be posted on the Dark Heresy forum asap.

Look out for an "Average Joes" topic by me.

It wasn't a challenge, it was a statement of preference. We get that you like the story of Joe Plumber going against Chaos cults. Most people here don't. Might as well try to convince us to prefer apples over oranges.

It was also a statement of fact, to some degree: characters such as you endorse were never meant to be playable in either edition of Dark Heresy. Even if DH1 chargen created... less than impressive characters, to say it mildly, the fluff attached to it made it clear that they are exceptional individuals chosen by the Inquisitor for their great potential and hand-picked to bring their expertise where it counts the most. The disparity between these assumptions and the poor character sheet is just the symptom of the murderhobo trend of the time cps and I have already mentioned.

By which I don't mean to say you're playing it wrong or anything like that - by all means, knock yourself out playing and running the games the way you want it. We're just refuting your initial assessment that there has been some significant tonal shift between DH1 and DH2 beta when it comes to the role of the Acolytes. There hasn't - both systems assume starting Acolytes as exceptional individuals of great potential, yet quite new to the byzantine world of the Inquisition and the mind-melting threats faced in this line of duty. It's just that the mechanics represent it differently due to a subtle shift in scaling that happened during the later development of 40k as a system.

I kinda like the idea. It also fits the 40K mold. It's about overcoming overwhelming odds, being in completely over your head and finding a way to survive. Sounds 40Kish to me. I'm interesting in knowing how TK's test of it goes because i've been pondering that scenario for some time myself.

I can see that many of you are serious gamers with your face firmly on what the book says. That is fine if that is what makes you happy. I'm of the fun "what if" field where no idea is thrown out if it can be played.

Is it not in the realms of possibility that a worthless nobody can become a mighty Inquisitor.

Once again Elior replied while I was typing. Expect my topic soon. I might not have time to play for a couple of weeks, but I hope to have a week off so I can go nuts.

P.S. I'll also be doing a warp rift incursion and seeing how long civilians survive. Not serious campaign material, but an interesting "what if". How long will a group of civilians last, and what malignancies, mutations and dark pacts occur, is just part of the fun.

Just introduced the Average Joes on Dark Heresy forum. Will get to gaming when I can.

Just a little comparison here:

In DH1 the Acolytes were newbs with some life experience (400xp worth). This was only 100xp away from level two in DH1 so the point was that those that prospered would move beyond basic "Asset" to Acolyte since the basic exp guidelines called for 200xp per session. Thus that "Initial" stage was meant to be a "one off" implicitly within the rules. If the GM wishes to introduce characters with more Experience in the beginning than they should feel free to do so! But I wouldn't recommend codifying that into the basic rules because then you remove the 'beginner option from players (Like myself and TKG) who like it!

I agree with Radwraith. Low starting competence can be eliminated for those who don't like it by starting at a higher XP total, but if the game system has 'heroic' stats locked in on Day 1, there is no practical work-around for people who want to start small and build up.

And with the current 2.0 Beta rules it wouldn't be that hopeless either. Combat is a non-issue because they would only need an automatic weapon and use Suppressive Fire and the rest is a passable challenge even for a lowly commoner.

Yeah, we need to fix that when we get to working on the Combat chapter.

I agree with Radwraith. Low starting competence can be eliminated for those who don't like it by starting at a higher XP total, but if the game system has 'heroic' stats locked in on Day 1, there is no practical work-around for people who want to start small and build up.

I also agree with this.