I hope this clears up why I like "Average Joes" and why I think an smart Inquisitor would employ them.

It still doesn't make any sense to pick the "average joe" for the spying, infiltrating and investigating part. If you want to start a new cell and you need a "hacker" type, you are not going to pick a boy who just went out of the Informatics School and doesn't know a **** about real life and the real hacker things.

The same if you need somebody to infiltrate in the worst part of the hive and hunt some gangers down. You're not going to pick the first recruit you can get your hand upon, who have only shot targets in the trainings. You pick somebody who knows who the f*** is he doing.

I think you're mistaking "I don't believe an Inquisitor/Interrogator would pick an incompetent and naive unbearded boy for a subtle investigation" with "I want my character to be Stallone in steroids"

Give me some credit. Did I not say a Guardsman would be sent into a barracks. By the same logic, scum would be sent into an underhive. Unimpressive doesn't mean incompetent.

Trust me, my characters are not naive. They have dark backgrounds where their naive life gets smashed to splinters. My reference to certain superhero movies is not a coincidence. How much did the X-Men get their butts kicked in the first movie? Then how much butt kicking did they accomplish by the third movie? Batman was Bruce Wayne once. Spiderman started as bullied Peter Parker.

They gotta learn somehow and have a whole LOT of luck while they learn.

If they live they might be worth keeping close. Don't forget how many people must work for an Inquisitor, training and arming all of them is just not worth it.

I get that an Inquisitor can tell anyone to check somthing out but having a team you can move about without a paper trail has it's use.

You'd think the Inquisition would be picking the cream of the crop from the organisations they draw from.

The cream of the crop might also have too much renown to keep subtle.

If they live they might be worth keeping close. Don't forget how many people must work for an Inquisitor, training and arming all of them is just not worth it.

I get that an Inquisitor can tell anyone to check somthing out but having a team you can move about without a paper trail has it's use.

Wisdom speaks!

You'd think the Inquisition would be picking the cream of the crop from the organisations they draw from.

Yawn!

I hate repeat myself.....ASCENSION

The Inquisitor has a retinue who, like their master, are ASCENSION created characters. These ASCENDED characters lead and take care of their cell of newbies

Eh. The Imperium is ******* gigantic. Plus, most people will only have heard chinese whispered rumours about specific people, unless they're living legends. I don't see how it'd be that hard to conceal your identity, or just head to another sector so no one has any real idea who you are.

DH1 was based on WHFRP2e and both games are very much a product of their era. This was around the time when D&D 3.5 was peaking and was the game to beat in the industry. A theme common through all of the editions of D&D up to that point was that player characters start as incompetent dirtfarmers and work their way up to competency through a lot of luck. That's a big part of the reason why DH1 has the players starting at such a low level of competency.

You'd think the Inquisition would be picking the cream of the crop from the organisations they draw from.

They probably take from the best and the most convenient and people who have no other use.

Also cps might have a point.

The thing is that while someone might be a royal badass in the Imperial Guard, they still might amount to nothing but a dirtfarmer in the Inquisition. One needs a whole other set of skills to survive in their dark secretive world.

Eh. The Imperium is ******* gigantic. Plus, most people will only have heard chinese whispered rumours about specific people, unless they're living legends. I don't see how it'd be that hard to conceal your identity, or just head to another sector so no one has any real idea who you are.

What?

So as a group of renegades gather in the local bar to discuss their plans for world domination. In walks a Stallone, Bruce Lee, Tom Cruise , Steven Hawkins and Mystic Meg. At the same time, me and my friends walk in.

Who are they going to be more cautious about?

Unless they're all psykers firing off divination powers in your direction. I'm not exactly how sure they could tell that you're all grizzled veterans. It's not like every highly successful guardsman or arbite becomes a hero of legend. The scale of 40k is very important to consider here.

One needs a whole other set of skills to survive in their dark secretive world.

In a time of darkness evil must be fought by a different kind of darkness.

I'm remembering a point someone made about the new Subtlety system. What if the team is just really good at pretending to be some highly visible celebrities? Everyone knows them and knows they're in town, but nobody thinks they're anything more than that.

So in your case I'd have the cultists get all star-struck and ask Willis for his autograph while trying to politely humor Stallone's unapologetic weird fascination with Asian culture.

I believe the Ravenor books said something about Inquisition agents having extremely short life expectancies. A grizzled veteran going into the Inquisition is considered just as much of a dead man as the other guy.

Eh. The Imperium is ******* gigantic. Plus, most people will only have heard chinese whispered rumours about specific people, unless they're living legends. I don't see how it'd be that hard to conceal your identity, or just head to another sector so no one has any real idea who you are.

What?

So as a group of renegades gather in the local bar to discuss their plans for world domination. In walks a Stallone, Bruce Lee, Tom Cruise , Steven Hawkins and Mystic Meg. At the same time, me and my friends walk in.

Who are they going to be more cautious about?

Neither, as neither will be recognized. Even most Peers of the Imperium (Inquisitors, Rogue Traders, Chapter Masters and such) don't enjoy the level of fame that'd allow them to be recognized by face outside the small circle of the most interested people, so your comparison is absurd.

It's also worth noting that while 2e starts Acolytes as more competent than 1e, it's nowhere near the level of badassery that you imply. It's just, they are competent enough that the Inquisitor can mostly trust them not to screw up by accident. So what you're advocating isn't more stealthy, low profile Inquisition, but simply a less competent one.

I find it very hard to believe that an Inquisitor with the authority to choose among billions would have any reason to hire "Average Joe". Every acolyte might not be a living legend of unrivaled competence, but why would an Inquisitor ever choose someone that isn't at least very highly skilled to serve the Inquisition?

In my opinion acolytes should be at least as competent as rogue trader crewmembers, and vastly more competent than Imperial Guardsmen.

Eh. The Imperium is ******* gigantic. Plus, most people will only have heard chinese whispered rumours about specific people, unless they're living legends. I don't see how it'd be that hard to conceal your identity, or just head to another sector so no one has any real idea who you are.

What?

So as a group of renegades gather in the local bar to discuss their plans for world domination. In walks a Stallone, Bruce Lee, Tom Cruise , Steven Hawkins and Mystic Meg. At the same time, me and my friends walk in.

Who are they going to be more cautious about?

Neither, as neither will be recognized. Even most Peers of the Imperium (Inquisitors, Rogue Traders, Chapter Masters and such) don't enjoy the level of fame that'd allow them to be recognized by face outside the small circle of the most interested people, so your comparison is absurd.

It's also worth noting that while 2e starts Acolytes as more competent than 1e, it's nowhere near the level of badassery that you imply. It's just, they are competent enough that the Inquisitor can mostly trust them not to screw up by accident. So what you're advocating isn't more stealthy, low profile Inquisition, but simply a less competent one.

It's probably the intangible skills that an Inquisitor looks for such as courage, quick decision making, resourcefulness, etc. This is likely what makes them the most incompetent and besides, those skills in most situations cannot be taught easily or perhaps ever.

So as a group of renegades gather in the local bar to discuss their plans for world domination. In walks a Stallone, Bruce Lee, Tom Cruise , Steven Hawkins and Mystic Meg. At the same time, me and my friends walk in.

Who are they going to be more cautious about?

They are likely to be more cautious about the characters with the lowest levels of appropriate skills, such as deceive.

Some people are no fun.

So here goes my final words on this because some of you really don't get this (p.s. I started typing this before Elior replied. He seems to get this):

My acolytes do not come to Inquisitors notice because of some great feat they accomplish. They come to his attention because they are just Billy no-mates from next door, hair dresser Molly who loves to gossip, stripper Sarah from the local club who see or hear something. Rather than simply shrugging and moving on, they take action to learn more and report it to the authorites. Oh wait...there is an agent of the Inquisition (not the Inquisitor) in the Arbites precinct.

Said agent takes the trembling civi to one side: "do you think you can return and learn more?"

Shaking and trembling the civi looks up, their face hardening with determination: "I'll do what I can."

"Emperor be with you.....we will be watching."

P.S. Who was that guy standing in the shadows?......Just the young adept recording the conversation to pass on to his Sage master who has the ear of.......

Some people are no fun.

So here goes my final words on this because some of you really don't get this (p.s. I started typing this before Elior replied. He seems to get this):

My acolytes do not come to Inquisitors notice because of some great feat they accomplish. They come to his attention because they are just Billy no-mates from next door, hair dresser Molly who loves to gossip, stripper Sarah from the local club who see or hear something. Rather than simply shrugging and moving on, they take action to learn more and report it to the authorites. Oh wait...there is an agent of the Inquisition (not the Inquisitor) in the Arbites precinct.

Said agent takes the trembling civi to one side: "do you think you can return and learn more?"

Shaking and trembling the civi looks up, their face hardening with determination: "I'll do what I can."

"Emperor be with you.....we will be watching."

P.S. Who was that guy standing in the shadows?......Just the young adept recording the conversation to pass on to his Sage master who has the ear of.......

Well, you can run it as easily with DH2 as with DH1, seeing neither was ever built to support your playstyle.

Actually TKG, As I've said before: DH2 beta supports your investigative theory. The Investigators are fairly low level typically undercover agents who come from humble beginnings and thus have not lost contact with their roots. The Inquisitor knows that the guy in the mail room can often find things that the guys in the offices upstairs don't even know exists. He doesn't call the mail room supervisor because he may be part of the problem! If the inquisitor wanted a 'mid level' group he could certainly recruit one but that isn't always the best option! Once your acolytes find (or stumble into and get wasted by) the "real" problem, the Inquisitor can call in the cavalry. Said cavalry is the realm of "reinforcments" in DH2. As a GM I would also take into account the relevant Ordo of the Inquisitor. For the Ordo Hereticus: The Sisters of battle will bring flaming purgation to the Heretics! For the Ordo Xenos: A Deathwatch kill team can make short work of most alien scum! and Finally, if you are facing a Moral threat the Ordo Malleus has the ultimate answer: The mighty Grey Knights! Such is their power that the Acolytes will probably be mind cleansed just for having seen them!

Obviously this sort of reinforcement is probably near 'at hand' for the Inquisitor in question. It also shows that when an Inquisitor wants 'Badass' they can afford the very best! They won't even bother with Rambo or Judge dread (At least not at THAT point!). Now if the Inquisitor believes that the infection has become too widespread for such a 'power scalpel' to contain or destroy than he has a decision to make: In game terms, the game becomes a game of "Only War" as the Planet is invaded by the IG or, The entire campaign perishes under the flames of Exterminatus!

This is sort of the point of low level characters. The Inquisition wants to catch problems at the earliest levels possible rather than wait til they're out of hand. Also, If said inquisitor needs more 'talented' individuals he will certainly also want people he KNOWS he can trust! (At least in theory! this is 40k after all ). Most Inquisitors would probably want someone with whom he has a working knowledge rather than some random Special forces badass that may not be committed to your cause!

It is the Gm's responsibility to determine why a random IG private would fit with a particular group (For example). Is it in a warzone where their is evidence of a hidden alien threat or heresy? Than fine! If it's a threat in an Underhive then a cop (Arbite seeker or warrior) would probably be a better choice. Note that these are just my thoughts. I could be wrong. In DH1 Ascension, An Inquisitor would activate a new team of acolytes by "burning" 5 points of influence. This represented an 'investment' since the teams success would repay the spent influence and undoubtedly bring him more as they matured.

I've always Imagined Inquisitor's keeping "Mission impossible" style dossiers on their acolytes (and a series of potential recruits) and assigning them as necessary to a given investigations. New groups are simply people the Inquisitors contacts have Identified as "Potentially useful assets" while established Cells represent a series of "A" teams that can be called upon for more difficult assignments. The 'Scale' argument also plays here. Not every rumour of heresy that reaches an Inquisitor's ear is an actual problem. Your "A" teams are a finite resource and your reinforcement squads even more so! When a new team is activated it is done to investigate a low tier, low probability threat from the Inquisitor's point of view. If it turns out to be something then fine. He and his new Acolytes will deal with it! Oh, They may well be told they are saving the galaxy and such, but in the beginning they are just covering the bases.

Another thing worth considering: while sending a barely trained guy to perform a "loud" action (basically handing him a gun and telling him where to shoot) can have it's uses, sending an equally untrained guy to do some investigative and/or infiltration work is criminally irresponsible.

Any schmuck can survive combat with a bit of luck and planning, and just his presence on the same battlefield gives a slight advantage to his team - if for no other reason that the enemies have more potential targets to choose from, but also because even a weak combatant can get lucky. That's basically how the Imperial Guard operates - concentrating firepower and forcing the enemy to disperse his among multiple targets.

But set an untrained guy upon a crime scene, and he'll trample evidence, miss connections, get in the way of people who actually know what they're doing. Ask the same guy to sneak about, or assume a cover identity, and he'll be stumbling, both literally and metaphorically. It takes years of training to accomplish anything in this line of work, and the margin for error is negligibly small. The only legitimate use such a guy has is as a distraction, drawing attention to himself while an actual professional does the job unnoticed. Otherwise, he's worse than a dead weight - he becomes an actual obstacle for his own team.

From this perspective, higher starting competence actually supports investigation and espionage as default campaign modes better than lower starting competence does.

Starting agents start with that competency though. As a group, they have inquiry, scrutiny, lore skills, weapons training, and sometimes more. They just don't have crazy combat talents.

From this perspective, higher starting competence actually supports investigation and espionage as default campaign modes better than lower starting competence does.

+1 to this. Because no matter how good you are with stealth and investigation as a player, if your character has no Inquiry/Stealth then he will be a sh*tty infiltrator and investigator.