Essentially, we are back to "The system is bad so it is time for some houserules!" solution that isn't the very bestest thing to have. So to say.

Properly designing a challenge for your PCs isn't "houserules" it's the GMs job.

Also, I note that a group of characters without a psyker could have achieved the same outcome in your encounter by tossing in a hallucinogen grenade... so again, it seems to me the problem, if there is one, isn't with the psyker rules.

If the GM should give every important NPC anti-psychic stuff to not fall for the mighty Crush/Hallucination/Terrify spam then it shows some problems, doesn't it? I'm okay with psykers being powerful, but they should be more dangerous to themselves than anyone else. If Draco hadn't gone "YOLO, Push +3!" so easily, we wouldn't have had any problems with the adventure.

And I'm pretty sure that it is easier to justify some respirators or sealed armor (that gives complete immunity against the hallucination grenade) than esoteric talents .

If the GM should give every important NPC anti-psychic stuff to not fall for the mighty Crush/Hallucination/Terrify spam then it shows some problems, doesn't it? I'm okay with psykers being powerful, but they should be more dangerous to themselves than anyone else. If Draco hadn't gone "YOLO, Push +3!" so easily, we wouldn't have had any problems with the adventure.

And I'm pretty sure that it is easier to justify some respirators or sealed armor (that gives complete immunity against the hallucination grenade) than esoteric talents .

It shows no more problems than the need to give major NPCs Carapace armor if your PCs have bolt weapons, or gas masks if your PCs are carrying gas grenades and I don't see it any easier or harder to justify.

"YOLO, Push +3!"

As a GM, I'm sure if the BBG was pwned like that I'd just be left sitting my side of the screen blinking in silent wtf.

Still, it is what it is, and I'd go with it. Not everything is "epic."

Your characters seem a bit over efficient for the starting characters in the beta mk2. Did you grant extra xp?

Your characters seem a bit over efficient for the starting characters in the beta mk2. Did you grant extra xp?

Nope. You can check the characters in the previous pages - they are all standard 2.0 starting characters.

I don't know, it sounds to me like a combination of planning and good luck. Lucky enough to roll a 10 for hallucination twice and roll low enough to not trigger perils. Were the characters built with this sort of climactic battle in mind? I didn't see anything that struck me as more than good luck.

I don't know, it sounds to me like a combination of planning and good luck.

For one, this Hallucination thing wasn't in our plan at all . Like, we were prepared for a long and tough fight with a 50/50 chance to win/die. The General and his men wore Light Carapace, the bodyguards had manstopper autoguns, the General had a plasma pistol and Into the Jaws of Hell (so we could throw Suppressive Fire into the garbage) and all of them had high (40+) WS, BS and T. They totally annihilated our Reinforcements (out of the 20 troopers and 4 officers only 5 troopers and 1 officer survived) so when we jumped into the fight we anticipated something BIG. Then Draco's player realized that he can spam +3 Push Hallucination all over the place and the rest is history .

Yeah, maybe it was just the rush of anger that made us come to this conclusion but I have no regrets. Psykers have no real restrains. Their power must be much more risky to avoid the "DnD Sorcerer Effect".

Yeah, maybe it was just the rush of anger that made us come to this conclusion but I have no regrets. Psykers have no real restrains. Their power must be much more risky to avoid the "DnD Sorcerer Effect".

What you seem to me to be saying is: "yes, you can play a psyker but you can't use your powers."

I really don't understand that attitude at all. No one says, if you play a warrior but if you shoot a gun we need a significant chance it will blow up in your face. No one say, you can play a sage but if you make a Forbidden Lore roll we need a significant chance you will go insane. The point of playing a psyker is to play a character who can use psychic powers.

^Yeah, but the warrior needs to put resources and effort into firing that gun: he needs to get that gun, get ammo for it, keep that gun with himself, keep the ammo consumption in check and so on. And it will only work until he runs into the most common defensive asset in the Imperium: Mr Armor who can negate his gun completely.

On the other hand, the psyker can throw around his psychic powers randomly, anywhere, anytime. Psychic defense is supposed to be rare and it usually comes in the form of another psyker. And even if you do possess these defenses, the psyker can just spam his powers until your defenses fail. You can't strip a psyker from his powers and theoretically it is impossible to keep one in check.

I don't say that psykers shouldn't use their powers. I say that they should use their powers with care. The current system would be better for a setting where psykers are more common and accepted thus people could have a good reason to calculate with them (like in Black Crusade) or in a setting where psykers are special snowflakes in a firestorm (Only War). But in a setting where you can encounter enemies who haven't even heard about psykers? Nah... It is ridiculous.

Your characters seem a bit over efficient for the starting characters in the beta mk2. Did you grant extra xp?

Nope. You can check the characters in the previous pages - they are all standard 2.0 starting characters.

I did, I certainly can't make that psyker at chargen without extra xp.

Your characters seem a bit over efficient for the starting characters in the beta mk2. Did you grant extra xp?

Nope. You can check the characters in the previous pages - they are all standard 2.0 starting characters.

I did, I certainly can't make that psyker at chargen without extra xp.

Here is the secret: point-buy system so the characteristics are clear. You gain Awareness, Common Lore (AAT), Deceive, Forbidden Lore (Warp), Psyniscience and Weapon Training (Las, Low-Tech) from the background, you gain Quick Draw from Role. You take the Psyker elite advance (300xp, you start at PR 2 because of automatic Sanctioned trait), you take cheap Dodge (you have both Agility and Defense Aptitudes, 100xp) and then a single basic psychic power (in this case, Telepathic Link, 100xp). 500xp well spent.

I think you missed that Draco is a Desperado and not a Mystic.

Actually no, I didn't miss that at all. I missed that you got the increase in Psy rating from sanctioned though. Touche sir.

But in a setting where you can encounter enemies who haven't even heard about psykers? Nah... It is ridiculous.

What setting are you talking about?

Firstly, the hive gangs of Necromunda hire rogue psykers as mercenaries... so I have no idea where you are getting this idea that people haven't even heard about psykers.

Secondly, this is a game about the Inquisition, one third of which hunts daemons , one third of which hunts heretics and rogue psykers and one third of which hunts aliens . I hardly think this is a setting where psykers are less "common and accepted" then in the other game lines.

But in a setting where you can encounter enemies who haven't even heard about psykers? Nah... It is ridiculous.

What setting are you talking about?

Firstly, the hive gangs of Necromunda hire rogue psykers as mercenaries... so I have no idea where you are getting this idea that people haven't even heard about psykers.

Secondly, this is a game about the Inquisition, one third of which hunts daemons , one third of which hunts heretics and rogue psykers and one third of which hunts aliens . I hardly think this is a setting where psykers are less "common and accepted" then in the other game lines.

Unsanctioned psykers are also frequently burnt at the stake by house Cawdor and the Cult of the Red Redemption, plus the Imperium spends countless resources on tracking down rogue psykers.

Psychic powers should come at a cost, thats a very big part of the lore of the system. They are feared and hated for a very real reason, and any psyker flashing his powers should quite rightly end up on the wrong side of an angry lynch mob of peasants on most planets.

It's not that psyker's aren't heard of, its that most people are taught to abhor the witch from birth...

What you seem to me to be saying is: "yes, you can play a psyker but you can't use your powers."

I really don't understand that attitude at all. No one says, if you play a warrior but if you shoot a gun we need a significant chance it will blow up in your face. No one say, you can play a sage but if you make a Forbidden Lore roll we need a significant chance you will go insane. The point of playing a psyker is to play a character who can use psychic powers.

The difference being that the warrior can't use his gun to turn invisible and sneak into the mansion, then use his gun to persuade the planetary governor to open his secret safe and explain his evil plan, (Okay maybe this one is viable, but Intimidate is less reliable than MIND CRUSH) then use his gun to make him forget the whole thing even happened, then use his gun to turn invisible again and leave without notice. Likewise, the Adept cannot kill a dozen men in a single blaze of administrative power.

A psyker with high stats and versatile powers can accomplish almost any goal singlehandedly. (See: D&D 3.5's endless Wizard problems.) In order to avoid making psykers into "walking on cakes: the musical!" there need to be limitations and drawbacks, which in 40k take the form of Perils of the Warp.

Effectively, the Psyker is the guy who brings dynamite to a swordfight. It either goes horribly wrong or horribly right.

Likewise, the Adept cannot kill a dozen men in a single blaze of administrative power.

I want to play this character. Right.This.Now

Likewise, the Adept cannot kill a dozen men in a single blaze of administrative power.

I want to play this character. Right.This.Now

Yeah I'm pretty sure adepts have done a lot more damage than a mere dozen guys with paperwork. There's a form for everything, and an adept who knows his way around the bureaucracy is a dangerous foe.

What you seem to me to be saying is: "yes, you can play a psyker but you can't use your powers."

I really don't understand that attitude at all. No one says, if you play a warrior but if you shoot a gun we need a significant chance it will blow up in your face. No one say, you can play a sage but if you make a Forbidden Lore roll we need a significant chance you will go insane. The point of playing a psyker is to play a character who can use psychic powers.

The difference being that the warrior can't use his gun to turn invisible and sneak into the mansion, then use his gun to persuade the planetary governor to open his secret safe and explain his evil plan, (Okay maybe this one is viable, but Intimidate is less reliable than MIND CRUSH) then use his gun to make him forget the whole thing even happened, then use his gun to turn invisible again and leave without notice. Likewise, the Adept cannot kill a dozen men in a single blaze of administrative power.

A psyker with high stats and versatile powers can accomplish almost any goal singlehandedly. (See: D&D 3.5's endless Wizard problems.) In order to avoid making psykers into "walking on cakes: the musical!" there need to be limitations and drawbacks, which in 40k take the form of Perils of the Warp.

Effectively, the Psyker is the guy who brings dynamite to a swordfight. It either goes horribly wrong or horribly right.

Cameoline, Stealth and Intimidate can let a warrior do much the same things... and in an interstellar empire where entire planets can be lost or destroyed due to clerical errors, don't even suggest to me that an Adminstratum adept can't do far worse than kill a dozen man just by filling out the right forms.

Yes, a psyker with the right stats and powers can do more, alone and naked, then other characters... but he has paid for those stats and powers with experience points and with other choices not taken. However, with the exception of the highest level psychic powers, I don't think he can do anything that another PC couldn't duplicate with the right gear, skills and talents... and without the outside risk of having their souls eaten by daemonic forces.

Psykers are powerful. They should be. Psykers are also limited, not only by Perils of the Warp but by a setting which, far from ignoring or denying their existence, knows them all to well and hates them with a holy fury (I'm reminded of the scene from one of the Ravenor novels where a psyker lifted information out of someone's brain, sparking a screaming mob which nearly killed another character).

The problem with psykers, if there is one, is a lack of clearer guidelines on how to handle them. As GMs, we know how to deal with guys with guns... the real world has lots of examples to draw on. Guys with magic/psychic powers tend to outside of our pool of examples.

Take your example of how to counter psykers from that same Ravenor novel- the BBG has his own "pet psyker", or definitely knows about psy-null tech and would at least get his hands on one example of it, maybe not the best there is, but it would be better than having nothing.

I think the psychic powers could really stand to be narratively distinguished. The book should really play up how unnatural and awful every use of a psychic power is. Talk about wrenching into the mind of that general and how as he distorts perceptions, the general starts seeing things from the psyker's own nightmares, and his screams let the psyker know that is exactly what is happening. Any use of biomancy should look like something out of cronenberg's The Fly. Divination should require ritual and sacrifice. Telekinesis needs to have reality literally rippling and physics stretching and even breaking ever so slightly around its effect. The flames of pyromancy need to take the shapes of the psykers own fantasies, giving everyone a glimpse into his unbridled id.

Barring that, why not just modify the minor warp table to be a bit less dispruptive and then ALWAYS roll on it when a power is used. Doubles or pushed means instant roll on the perils table.

Likewise, the Adept cannot kill a dozen men in a single blaze of administrative power.

I want to play this character. Right.This.Now

Exalted, Abyssals.

Small update: after some debate, we decided to reset the character pool and start a new adventure. The party will have an Untouchable in its ranks so prepare your bodies .

The GM and the players are unchanged. We are doing the character creation and the pre-adventure briefing on Saturday.

The Second Run

So we restarted our 2.0 Beta testing yesterday to get more into the slightly modified character creation rules and to test the Untouchable Elite Advancement. For the last we hired a new player who has quite an experience with playing an anti-psyker character.

This time, we used random characteristics generation and it was H-I-L-A-R-I-O-U-S . Everyone rolled awesome for the most useless characteristics (for example my Sage ended up with WS 40) and average to everything else. For most of us, that single re-roll was like the touch of Jesus Christ, bringing some life into our characters. Unfortunately, I don't have the character sheets with me this time, so I can only give a sketchy description of the party:

- Horst, the Shrine World Outcast Warrior. He is also the Untouchable. Melee oriented, but isn't really that killy with his crappy Strength (he has Strength<30). More about him later.

- Octavius the Highborn Imperial Guard Hierophant. He is in fact an ex-Commissar. We look forward to test this role as his special ability sounds pretty neat and the character has 5 Fate Points to spend.

- Wolfe the Hive World Arbites Chirurgeon. He is like CSI 40k. Nuff' said.

- Gamma the Voidborn Adeptus Astra Telepathica Desperado. She is not a Psyker. She was a security officer on a Black Ship that's why she has the AAT background. She is the only character who has no characteristic under 30. Her player actually made a pretty well-rounded character even though she had some odd handicaps (like a psy focus for starting gear).

- Titus the Highborn Outcast Sage. Character is super-focused on social stuff and investigation, his combat capabilities are almost 0 (except that WS 40 ). I actually hope that I will never see combat with this character as he has Agility 26 with no Dodge - a death sentence.

About the Untouchable Elite Advancement: this one actually looks pretty good but with 900 starting xp it is impossible to make a meaningful character out of it. The prerequisites for the Untouchable Talents are insane - you either get a Willpower Aptitude or forget that this Advancement even exists. And this is a sad thing as it restricts the Untouchable character to either have the Shrine World home world or take the Hierophant/Sage role (note: neither of these roles make any sense for an Untouchable IMHO). We think that the Untouchable Talents should have fixed costs like Psychic Powers and their prerequisites should be at least 5 points lower.

Oh, and on the Aptitudes, we would like to see an 8th "free-to-choose" Aptitude. So you gain 1 from Home World, 1 from background, 5 from Role and you can pick 1 extra Aptitude to personalize your character.

What you seem to me to be saying is: "yes, you can play a psyker but you can't use your powers."

I really don't understand that attitude at all. No one says, if you play a warrior but if you shoot a gun we need a significant chance it will blow up in your face. No one say, you can play a sage but if you make a Forbidden Lore roll we need a significant chance you will go insane. The point of playing a psyker is to play a character who can use psychic powers.

The difference being that the warrior can't use his gun to turn invisible and sneak into the mansion, then use his gun to persuade the planetary governor to open his secret safe and explain his evil plan, (Okay maybe this one is viable, but Intimidate is less reliable than MIND CRUSH) then use his gun to make him forget the whole thing even happened, then use his gun to turn invisible again and leave without notice. Likewise, the Adept cannot kill a dozen men in a single blaze of administrative power.

A psyker with high stats and versatile powers can accomplish almost any goal singlehandedly. (See: D&D 3.5's endless Wizard problems.) In order to avoid making psykers into "walking on cakes: the musical!" there need to be limitations and drawbacks, which in 40k take the form of Perils of the Warp.

Effectively, the Psyker is the guy who brings dynamite to a swordfight. It either goes horribly wrong or horribly right.

Cameoline, Stealth and Intimidate can let a warrior do much the same things... and in an interstellar empire where entire planets can be lost or destroyed due to clerical errors, don't even suggest to me that an Adminstratum adept can't do far worse than kill a dozen man just by filling out the right forms.

Yes, a psyker with the right stats and powers can do more, alone and naked, then other characters... but he has paid for those stats and powers with experience points and with other choices not taken. However, with the exception of the highest level psychic powers, I don't think he can do anything that another PC couldn't duplicate with the right gear, skills and talents... and without the outside risk of having their souls eaten by daemonic forces.

Psykers are powerful. They should be. Psykers are also limited, not only by Perils of the Warp but by a setting which, far from ignoring or denying their existence, knows them all to well and hates them with a holy fury (I'm reminded of the scene from one of the Ravenor novels where a psyker lifted information out of someone's brain, sparking a screaming mob which nearly killed another character).

The problem with psykers, if there is one, is a lack of clearer guidelines on how to handle them. As GMs, we know how to deal with guys with guns... the real world has lots of examples to draw on. Guys with magic/psychic powers tend to outside of our pool of examples.

Lucius, I would just like to mention that I agree wholeheartedly with this.

Pyskers ARE powerful. That is why they are feared in the whole Imperium. At the same time, this is the same reason why they are not all killed outright. Because they are useful.

If all Psykers were either useless or so risky that their powers would not be worth the risk, they would all simply be exterminated.

Yes, in some instances they are overpowered next to other players, but the same can be said of a Sororitas with a plasma gun and power armor.

It's just a (really big) part of the setting.