TKG, it's a 40k game. I'm sure you can have fun with it, but if you already own DH1 I would recommend sticking with that until the beta gets ironed out. It's much more zero-to-hero than DH2 seems to be (what with starting at 30+2d10 and all).

Or I could just say: "this character is way too strong for what I want. I know, I'll just make it 20+2D10." Problem solved with a little bit of the old DH creation system.

You seem to be loving the idea of the subtlety system. That's great, but honesty I wouldn't get too excited. It's a very forgettable system, which needs lots of GM fiat to have an impact. And at that point why have it as a mechanic?

I made a LONG and detailed series of posts with my thoughts and problems with the subtlety, influence, social, and investigation systems. I'd be happy to copy and paste it into a new thread and add 2.0 to the thread title. In essence, though, the influence system's biggest flaw is the randomness factor, the lack of meaningful differences among characters/reasons for them to not optimize how they acquire things, and the lack of guidance for common situations that arise in the game. The subtlety system still has that stupid table that gives narrative examples of the levels of subtlety that have nothing to do with the actual way the rules are written. There is also no actual guidance for the mechanical effects of subtlety, in spite of an entire page dedicated to precise rules for a group to try triangulating its own subtlety rating. The rules for subtlety changing are on a very granular 1-100 scale that has no actual meaning or reason to exist in practice. The social system is great and is an actual implementation of social combat that just needs to clarify that some more and make things a but more robust in order to create a full-fledged subsystem. The investigation mechanics for finding clues have this nice skeleton of differing encounter types and some mechanical implementation through talents that really needs to be codified with some mechanical implementation. As it is, DH is currently a bloated and patched up combat system with some tacked on narrative rules for everything involving an actual story. The implementation is schizophrenic in nature, and the system REALLY needed to be rebuilt in a unified way with mechanics building off and complimenting each other and working off central core rules rather than dozens of weird, poorly balanced subsystems that differ in scope and purpose.

I made a LONG and detailed series of posts with my thoughts and problems with the subtlety, influence, social, and investigation systems. I'd be happy to copy and paste it into a new thread and add 2.0 to the thread title. In essence, though, the influence system's biggest flaw is the randomness factor, the lack of meaningful differences among characters/reasons for them to not optimize how they acquire things, and the lack of guidance for common situations that arise in the game. The subtlety system still has that stupid table that gives narrative examples of the levels of subtlety that have nothing to do with the actual way the rules are written. There is also no actual guidance for the mechanical effects of subtlety, in spite of an entire page dedicated to precise rules for a group to try triangulating its own subtlety rating. The rules for subtlety changing are on a very granular 1-100 scale that has no actual meaning or reason to exist in practice. The social system is great and is an actual implementation of social combat that just needs to clarify that some more and make things a but more robust in order to create a full-fledged subsystem. The investigation mechanics for finding clues have this nice skeleton of differing encounter types and some mechanical implementation through talents that really needs to be codified with some mechanical implementation. As it is, DH is currently a bloated and patched up combat system with some tacked on narrative rules for everything involving an actual story. The implementation is schizophrenic in nature, and the system REALLY needed to be rebuilt in a unified way with mechanics building off and complimenting each other and working off central core rules rather than dozens of weird, poorly balanced subsystems that differ in scope and purpose.

No need to do a copy and paste. I can always find it and have a read.

I'm beginning to wonder if it isn't just easier to leave subtlety up to the Games Master. Something along the lines of:

Your characters have paid for transit on a stinky transport and are staying at a cheap B&B. They're wearing cheap clothing and have neither armour nor weapons. Both local authorities and any evil villains ignore them. 100% subtle.

During their investigations they follow a cultist into a rough part of town and are caught between rival gangs. Arbites arrive and interrogate the acolytes. Some dice rolls would follow as they attempt to hide who they're working for and why they were there. How successful their lies are will determine how much subtlety they lose. Alternatively they can declare their Inquisitorial mission which would at least half their subtlety, depending on how loyal the arbites are to the Imperium and how tight their security is.

Shooting or fighting may not alert authorities or villains too much on some worlds. Especially Hive Worlds. But unleashing psychic powers would bring down the wrath of Arbites, gangers, torch and pitchfolk weilding mobs while darker individuals might seek them for sinister reasons.

This can easily be house ruled, or just made up on the spot by most savvy Games Masters. Investigation could be similar to finding and purchasing weapons etc. Or, as I originally intended as part of a Dark Heresy game, simply have them walk into a room and socialise. By asking questions and listening through doors, there isn't much need to create too many complicated rules.

Dark Heresy has: Blather, Charm, Conceal, Deceive, Interrogation, Intimidate, Shadow. I'm sure I've forgotten some but these would be put to good use in a stealthy/social setting.

I will say I don't think the subtlety mechanics should be scrapped. They were a good effort toward establishing a theme for the game backed by the mechanics rather than hurt by them. The same thing goes for having an actual set of rules for investigations. DH is meant to be its own stand alone system with a stand alone rule book. It should have a theme and stick to it through mechanics and implementation. Otherwise, this is just only war with altered character creation and a "suggestions on making your not-guardsman investigate!" chapter.

I made a LONG and detailed series of posts with my thoughts and problems with the subtlety, influence, social, and investigation systems. I'd be happy to copy and paste it into a new thread and add 2.0 to the thread title. In essence, though, the influence system's biggest flaw is the randomness factor, the lack of meaningful differences among characters/reasons for them to not optimize how they acquire things, and the lack of guidance for common situations that arise in the game. The subtlety system still has that stupid table that gives narrative examples of the levels of subtlety that have nothing to do with the actual way the rules are written. There is also no actual guidance for the mechanical effects of subtlety, in spite of an entire page dedicated to precise rules for a group to try triangulating its own subtlety rating. The rules for subtlety changing are on a very granular 1-100 scale that has no actual meaning or reason to exist in practice. The social system is great and is an actual implementation of social combat that just needs to clarify that some more and make things a but more robust in order to create a full-fledged subsystem. The investigation mechanics for finding clues have this nice skeleton of differing encounter types and some mechanical implementation through talents that really needs to be codified with some mechanical implementation. As it is, DH is currently a bloated and patched up combat system with some tacked on narrative rules for everything involving an actual story. The implementation is schizophrenic in nature, and the system REALLY needed to be rebuilt in a unified way with mechanics building off and complimenting each other and working off central core rules rather than dozens of weird, poorly balanced subsystems that differ in scope and purpose.

No need to do a copy and paste. I can always find it and have a read.

I'm beginning to wonder if it isn't just easier to leave subtlety up to the Games Master. Something along the lines of:

Your characters have paid for transit on a stinky transport and are staying at a cheap B&B. They're wearing cheap clothing and have neither armour nor weapons. Both local authorities and any evil villains ignore them. 100% subtle.

During their investigations they follow a cultist into a rough part of town and are caught between rival gangs. Arbites arrive and interrogate the acolytes. Some dice rolls would follow as they attempt to hide who they're working for and why they were there. How successful their lies are will determine how much subtlety they lose. Alternatively they can declare their Inquisitorial mission which would at least half their subtlety, depending on how loyal the arbites are to the Imperium and how tight their security is.

Shooting or fighting may not alert authorities or villains too much on some worlds. Especially Hive Worlds. But unleashing psychic powers would bring down the wrath of Arbites, gangers, torch and pitchfolk weilding mobs while darker individuals might seek them for sinister reasons.

This can easily be house ruled, or just made up on the spot by most savvy Games Masters. Investigation could be similar to finding and purchasing weapons etc. Or, as I originally intended as part of a Dark Heresy game, simply have them walk into a room and socialise. By asking questions and listening through doors, there isn't much need to create too many complicated rules.

Dark Heresy has: Blather, Charm, Conceal, Deceive, Interrogation, Intimidate, Shadow. I'm sure I've forgotten some but these would be put to good use in a stealthy/social setting.

Which is exactly how the Subtlety system works! In your example, A group would arrive on world in a stinky old liner (+1d10) possessing highly effective disguises (+1d10) And set up in a highly thematically appropriate environment (Again +1d10) If this is the acolytes first game their starting subtlety could be somewhere around 71-80. If you look on the chart on pg. 225 It describes your group pretty clearly. It also allows that just by the fact that they are from offworld will generate SOME notice! (Albeit, not much!). Of course there is a downside... Good luck convincing the local Arbites of your credentials if you need their help! (Since you are VERY likely to pass your subtlety roll with this group the Judges will likely find it difficult to believe this group of unwashed mendicants are actually Inquisitorial acolytes!).

Arbite: "So you claim to be working for an Inquisitor. Just how in the Emperor's Holy name do you intend to prove it?"

"Do you have a subdermal multispectrum biopsycometric auspex projectorium?" answered the lead acolyte confidently.

"We do" confirms the Arbite quizzically, "why?"

As one the acolytes drop their fatigues, bend over and the lead acolyte boldly declares "the answer you seek is on our right butt cheeks."

Which is exactly how the Subtlety system works! In your example, A group would arrive on world in a stinky old liner (+1d10) possessing highly effective disguises (+1d10) And set up in a highly thematically appropriate environment (Again +1d10) If this is the acolytes first game their starting subtlety could be somewhere around 71-80. If you look on the chart on pg. 225 It describes your group pretty clearly. It also allows that just by the fact that they are from offworld will generate SOME notice! (Albeit, not much!). Of course there is a downside... Good luck convincing the local Arbites of your credentials if you need their help! (Since you are VERY likely to pass your subtlety roll with this group the Judges will likely find it difficult to believe this group of unwashed mendicants are actually Inquisitorial acolytes!).

Great thing is that subtlety roll is pretty much the only mechanical implementation of subtlety. There's very little in the way of other uses for the stat, which makes it practically pointless.

Which is why they should create a list of probable outcomes or results that would effect subtlety and by how much. There should also be advice on how different tiers of subtlety effect in game play.

Exactly. As it stands they spend ages establishing how to calculate this arbitrary number, only to do practically nothing in the way of telling you how to use it.

Side Note: <Standby for blatant rant:>To those of you to whom this applies; Stop trying to sabotage the product because you want your old beta back! You know who you are and yes I'm calling you out on it! I have tried to ignore the incessant bitching and whining but when you try to discourage new players as a BLATANT attempt to sabotage the beta you go too far! By his stated question, DH2 IS VERY MUCH the product he was looking for and you know it!!! KNOCK IT OFF! Some have already become blatantly derogatory to other players (See thread about whining players forcing this to be only war) and now you're straying into product sabotage! If you don't like the beta that much than please just shut up and go away! That's what many of the "old grognard's" felt they had to do with the old beta to avoid becoming abusive. Maybe some of you should take a lesson here!

<Rant ends>

Sorry, they are not going away. This is a Beta, so they can still influence things to their way of thinking. Get over it. It is what happened with the first Beta. People give their opinions on these forums. As to whether this Beta of Dark Heresy is what the first poster wants I cannot say, but peoples opinions other than yours are equally valid. As to whether they are "sabotaging" this Beta, many people might say that FFG have done that all on their own. If FFG have a problem with various people on here I am sure they will remove them pronto, but it is not your job to do it. Your own rant puts you in exactly the same bracket as Homunculus. So get over yourself and accept that other people have widely differing opinions from yourself.

I was assuming there would be something from the Inquisitor to prove their identities should need arise. But it would need to be something easily concealed. Perhaps a code or symbol on their person which is invisible except to a certain kind CSI style scanner.

I deliberately had my Inquisitor impress on the acolytes the need for secrecy, and while they have Inquisitorial rosettes they were instructed that relying on them was to only be a last resort. A couple of my cleverer players have realised the Inquisitor is testing them, to see which of them deserve to rise to Interrogator rank, so they have incentive to rely on their subtlety.

For the most part I play pretty fast and loose with Sublety, using it more often as a narrative guide than something to be rolled against.

On RadWraith's rant: Yeah, if by "sabotage" you mean "attempt to salvage the 2 months of progress and get a product that is Dark Heresy 2nd Edition not Only War: Inquisitor skin" I will continue to sabotage this joke of an "update".

Side Note: <Standby for blatant rant:>To those of you to whom this applies; Stop trying to sabotage the product because you want your old beta back! You know who you are and yes I'm calling you out on it! I have tried to ignore the incessant bitching and whining but when you try to discourage new players as a BLATANT attempt to sabotage the beta you go too far! By his stated question, DH2 IS VERY MUCH the product he was looking for and you know it!!! KNOCK IT OFF! Some have already become blatantly derogatory to other players (See thread about whining players forcing this to be only war) and now you're straying into product sabotage! If you don't like the beta that much than please just shut up and go away! That's what many of the "old grognard's" felt they had to do with the old beta to avoid becoming abusive. Maybe some of you should take a lesson here!

<Rant ends>

Sorry, they are not going away. This is a Beta, so they can still influence things to their way of thinking. Get over it. It is what happened with the first Beta. People give their opinions on these forums. As to whether this Beta of Dark Heresy is what the first poster wants I cannot say, but peoples opinions other than yours are equally valid. As to whether they are "sabotaging" this Beta, many people might say that FFG have done that all on their own. If FFG have a problem with various people on here I am sure they will remove them pronto, but it is not your job to do it. Your own rant puts you in exactly the same bracket as Homunculus. So get over yourself and accept that other people have widely differing opinions from yourself.

Oh I am quite 'over' myself I assure you! I have no problem with people expressing different opinions to me! In fact I welcome it! I enjoy a robust debate! I DO have a problem with the name calling and I really have a problem when people start discouraging people from even looking at the product. It may not be my job but I don't wish to see people discouraged from participating either because of abuse or misinformation. I was told to "Get over it" when I and others stated my dislike for the fist beta. I did. I even tried to contribute to the improvement of said product. FFG then decided to reverse course and go back to the product I (And others) ACTUALLY WANTED. So I guess it's your turn to "get over it". If you want to help improve the product then fine. bring out your suggestions. Let's have the debate! Just so you know; I doubt AP or Narrative damage are coming back because I believe they are what really sank the first beta! In some ways that's a shame! Narrative damage in particular was a really interesting Idea but it needed a LOT of work!

As to your comment Ragnar, You're right! I usually only resort to a rant like that before I start flagging people as Abusive! I note that a number of those I was thinking of have gone on to other threads and taken a more constructive tone. Again, I welcome that! I hope to see you there too!