While we're less than a year out from the Force & Destiny Beta, here's a little something that might tide over those folks wanting a bit more in regards to the Force for their Age of Rebellion games.

Ways of the Force, Version 1.2

For those folks not familiar with my work here, Ways of the Force is a fan supplement containing a trio of new Universal Force-Sensitive specializations (the Dark Side Acolyte, the Force Mystic, and the Jedi Initiate), a collection of new talents, as well as two new Force Powers and a selection of what I refer to as "minor" powers that to me don't warrant an entire Force Power tree.

For those folks that have seen the prior versions, either from my blog or the thread over on the Edge of the Empire forum, there's only a few major mechanical changes from the prior version, mostly centered on the Injure power and the Resist Force minor power and a couple of talent tweaks to the specializations. The major change is in the appearance of the document, hopefully giving it a bit more of a "professional" look than the prior releases.

So if you want a few more options for your Force-users, check out the above link, and let me know how the material works out if you do include it in your games. If you've got questions on the material, such as why I made some of the choices I did or don't quite get how some mechanical aspect works, those questions are welcome to.

Impressive…most impressive.

I read through the original version a while back but it didn't stick, and since none of my players has wanted to play a force-using character yet, it fell by the wayside. This is a nice clean update. You seem to have achieved the subtlety and nuance FFG was kind enough to give us a template for.

Agree very much with the "What this document is not…" section, and the balance issues. My hopes for F&D are that they explore the full Force user potential. I hope it's not a book about how to replicate the Luke story. But if the players are to play Jedi with some semblance of control, and not be ordered about by a master and the council, they can't start play as Padawans (FR1), they'd have to start as Knights (FR3+), along with a decent range of skill development in knowledge, diplomacy, and even mechanics. My hope is they don't try to dumb down this starting point like Saga did, but rather provide guidelines on how to beef up other characters to match that power level.

Awesome document again!

As I said several times, I would like that people from FFG don't balance things. I like that the Force or its users like Jedi/Sith can crush another one "easily" just because the story told us that this is the reality in George Lucas universe. Bounty-Hunters take especial training to hunt Jedis... and even that doesn't asure that they will survive to the hunt.

I love the cinematic game concept, and I hope that FFG designers mantain SW essence. If a GM doesn't want overpowered Jedis on his/her games just say no, but don't change world idea because of "balance".

I think that it was on a Wizards forum that someone asked "why my Noble can't win a Jedi on a fight?" Really? YOU are a NOBLE and him/her is a JEDI! XD

Of course they aren't the best of the galaxy but, close on.

Again, thanks Donovan for your supplements!

As I said several times, I would like that people from FFG don't balance things.

Because it's so fun for one character to outshine everyone else, both in a particular scene or the overarching plot, because he can call on supernatural powers?

This is pretty much the reason my soon-to-be-AoR GM is banning Force use. He just wants to tell a game about uber-l337 "normal" sentients who decided to join the Rebellion, without dealing with the baggage of fluff and crunch a Force-user inevitably brings into the game, especially at the time of the Empire/Rebellion.

Personally, I think the game needs to be balanced, especially one where most players aren't Forceful, and a good starting point for that was making EotE/AoR Forceful characters have to buy into a separate Specialization rather than starting with a particular "Forceful" career. Certainly this should not be the case in F&D where I imagine there will be multiple Forceful Careers, each with 3 Specs in it, and it wouldn't be out of line to have a party of Jedi who each focus on different aspects of the Force (Guardian, Counselor, Sentinel after all).

The thing to avoid is FFG's Dark Heresy Imperial Psyker career, aka "I have all the Minor Powers and thus can easily obviate the Assassin, the Scum, the healer-Adept etc because PSYKER." This was corrected in later 40k games and I'm glad it has not been the case so far in Star Wars. Each force spec should be balanced against the others (especially in F&D) and also against equivalent "mundane" options, which will be harder when there are baseline Force Careers, instead of separate Universal Specs that have to be separately invested into.

Because it's so fun for one character to outshine everyone else, both in a particular scene or the overarching plot, because he can call on supernatural powers?

As I said several times, I would like that people from FFG don't balance things.

This is pretty much the reason my soon-to-be-AoR GM is banning Force use. He just wants to tell a game about uber-l337 "normal" sentients who decided to join the Rebellion, without dealing with the baggage of fluff and crunch a Force-user inevitably brings into the game, especially at the time of the Empire/Rebellion.

And there's no problem with that, of course. Those are the kind of sessions I'm running right now and I'm really enjoying them. But you're missing the point: *if* I get players who want to play pre-Imperial Jedi after F&D comes out, I don't want them to have to start as Padawans, I want them to start as Knights so they have independence, and as Knights, they must kick booty. Therefore, I want guidelines on how to bring "muggles" up to level where the Jedi character does *not* outshine them. Capisce?

I regret bringing this up, as it hijacks the thread away from the supplement.

You'll be able to play them as Knights if you want. Just allot more XP to start to all character types and they can all start as more experienced.

Well, the basic idea is that not every Force character its almost invincible but yes those ones highly trained.

I know that was George Lucas son (XD) that young Padawan at the end of the Episode III beat up 3 or 4 ARC Troopers alone before die!

A native FS or just someone with not so much training its just someone with an advantage (and a BIG social problem in Imperial era if they discover you. You are a shoot-to-kil target). But those ones mentioned like Jedi, Dark Jedi or Sith well trained, in my opinion, must be REALLY powerful. And when I say highly trained I mean that if a special trooper with 200 XP and a young Jedi Knight with the same 200 XP fight between themselfs, the Jedi will win the fight most probably. Unless the soldier its a Mandalorian or a Jedi-Hunter of some kind.

George told us that this is the SW reality. I wouldn't like the idea drow-concept that "Hmm... a FS? +50 XP. A Jedi you say? +150 XP Build!"

My height its 1,70 (5'7"). You are more than 2 (6'7") meters tall and heavier than me. We have the same train level and the same XP points, but you will probably beat me just because your "base stats" are better than my own. I see a well trained FS or Jedi the same way.

Even if we train the same, your choices on the Force will (highly probably) make that you beat me up.

As for "high-powered" Force-users in the vein of the Force Unleashed games, I have no plans to introduce any supplemental rules to cover that sort of thing. Primarily because if I want to play an over-powered Force-user, I can go play Saga Edition or D6, both of which cover "over-powered Force-users" quite well. Besides, any fool can create an completely broken set of house rules with hardly any effort. The real challenge comes in creating a set of house rules that meshes with the original game but doesn't completely overpower the official material.

Josep and Kshatriya, if you want to continue your debate, could you kindly move it to private message?

Ok, no problem Donovan! And as I said, your set its just great.

Please continue so on

PS: I think that Starkiller did a lot of damage to SW Universe XD

Because it's so fun for one character to outshine everyone else, both in a particular scene or the overarching plot, because he can call on supernatural powers?

As I said several times, I would like that people from FFG don't balance things.

This is pretty much the reason my soon-to-be-AoR GM is banning Force use. He just wants to tell a game about uber-l337 "normal" sentients who decided to join the Rebellion, without dealing with the baggage of fluff and crunch a Force-user inevitably brings into the game, especially at the time of the Empire/Rebellion.

And there's no problem with that, of course. Those are the kind of sessions I'm running right now and I'm really enjoying them. But you're missing the point: *if* I get players who want to play pre-Imperial Jedi after F&D comes out, I don't want them to have to start as Padawans, I want them to start as Knights so they have independence, and as Knights, they must kick booty. Therefore, I want guidelines on how to bring "muggles" up to level where the Jedi character does *not* outshine them. Capisce?

I regret bringing this up, as it hijacks the thread away from the supplement.

I'd give the muggles bonus XP (possibly a free extra Specialization), Duty (or relevant mechanic), money, and/or gear to keep them on par with Jedi, especially if the Jedi are getting all their cool stuff in-career.

PS: I think that Starkiller did a lot of damage to SW Universe XD

I do appreciate though that the FFG system works on the XP basis instead of a 20-level cap, since that does in a way explain what's going on with 'the power of the Jedi' -- they flat-out have enough XP to buy all of what they're using. Sure, that might have been true with D6 as well in a sense, but I'll agree/see that at minimum a game with 'Knight'-level Jedi (according to the dictates of whatever pre-Episode III incarnation of the Jedi Order is depicted) needs to have the other players start with comparable bumps up.

I'll note though that when it costs 10 x total number of specializations that you would have for each Force specialization, at minimum it would cost 50 XP to just buy into Force Sensitive Exile and Force Sensitive Emergent if going strictly with EotE/AoR instead of Ways of the Force, without purchasing any talents, Force powers, or upgrades; so once we have an idea of what exactly 'Knight-level' Jedi were supposed to have, we can at least have an idea of have much XP or other boosts the non-Jedi PCs have to have...

@ Donovan: One issue I do have with WotF is that you did not specify for Natural Duelist which result would be taken if the player re-rolls, nor whether or not the player could declare the decision to re-roll after the initial roll was made or whether the player would have to first declare that they'd reroll if they didn't like the initial roll.

A nitpick would be my wondering why the lightsaber pike is somehow supposed to deal less damage than a regular lightsaber.

Donovan one question, from your point of view that "classical" lightsaber stats have Defense or Deflection like the small one and the other variants?

If yes, please, can you post here your own version?

Thanks!

@ Donovan: One issue I do have with WotF is that you did not specify for Natural Duelist which result would be taken if the player re-rolls, nor whether or not the player could declare the decision to re-roll after the initial roll was made or whether the player would have to first declare that they'd reroll if they didn't like the initial roll.

A nitpick would be my wondering why the lightsaber pike is somehow supposed to deal less damage than a regular lightsaber.

On Natural Duelist, it functions the same as any other re-roll in this system, in that the player discards the first roll and keeps the second roll, even if it's worse than the first roll. it's got the same wording as the other "Natural X" talents such as Natural Charmer, Natural Enforcer, Natural Hunter or Natural Pilot in that they simply state "once per session, player can choose to re-roll any one check for the specified skill." Saga Edition may have needed to specify which result was kept, but it seems FFG feels that players and GMs are smart enough to figure that one out on their own.

As for the lightsaber pike, the reduced damage is partly from the smaller blade, which is the same reason why the shoto doesn't have the same base damage as a regular lightsaber. Plus it's got enough perks already, namely the Defensive quality and the fact it could be used as a double weapon if the GM wished to allow it (treating the haft as a truncheon I'd think in terms of damage, though you'd have the issue of two different combat skills and possibly two different Characteristics depending on the player's choice when they took the Lightsaber skill).

Donovan one question, from your point of view that "classical" lightsaber stats have Defense or Deflection like the small one and the other variants?

If yes, please, can you post here your own version?

Thanks!

If you're referring to how the initial stats in the EotE Beta gave the lightsaber ranks in both the Defensive and Deflection weapon qualities... I'm glad that FFG got rid of those, as it made an already powerful weapon too powerful, when the defensive properties of a lightsaber have generally been more about the person using them than the weapon itself.

Well, for starters, he did give the "anti-Jedi" crowd a poster boy in the form of " what does 'what we despise' actually look like "

I think it makes every bit as much sense to make Force and Destiny a game that caters to the desires of people who hate Jedi as it does to make Age of Rebellion a game that caters to the desires of people who cheer for the Empire.

I like that your specializations have given some options for Lightsaber combat. Right now, Force Users are great party Faces, and pretty good Wizards, but not Jedi Knights. One thing I would like the Initiate to have access to is Knowledge (Lore), especially since it is so rare among specializations. Perhaps that would be in a tertiary specialization in Force and Destiny.

I know people are worried about Jedi outshining the other characters, but I don't think it will happen as long as the PCs all have the same XP. While someone has been buying the Jedi Initiate and probably another Force specialization to get a few Force Dice, the other characters have been specializing in their chosen roles.

This is purely anecdotal, but every SW RPG I have been a player in has taken that path, whether in d6, d20, or FFG SW. Other groups have had different experiences, but for me it is like playing a Wizard in D&D. The high-level play is the reward for being behind most of the game.

If a Scoundrel needs to realize she is Force Sensitive and buy the FS Exile, and then meet a Jedi or find a holocron and begin training into Jedi Initiate, the campaign will probably be a couple hundred XP into the game. A "mundane" soldier of equal XP is going to be one of the best shooters in the galaxy. A thief will be legendary in the corridors of CorSec.

Being able to start with Jedi Initiate as a second Specialization at the start of the game might change things, but probably only in the close combat arena. At the 100 XP level a guy with a lightsaber is going to draw fire like mad. It is really easy to hit things in FFSW, so I don't see reckless Jedi living long.

Donovan one question, from your point of view that "classical" lightsaber stats have Defense or Deflection like the small one and the other variants?

If yes, please, can you post here your own version?

Thanks!

If you're referring to how the initial stats in the EotE Beta gave the lightsaber ranks in both the Defensive and Deflection weapon qualities... I'm glad that FFG got rid of those, as it made an already powerful weapon too powerful, when the defensive properties of a lightsaber have generally been more about the person using them than the weapon itself.

Yep, lightsaber is an awesome weapon with a highly destructive power and a few useful uses (hyper can-opener XD) but its true skill comes from a trained Jedi (or other) not from the lightsaber itself.

Being able to start with Jedi Initiate as a second Specialization at the start of the game might change things, but probably only in the close combat arena. At the 100 XP level a guy with a lightsaber is going to draw fire like mad. It is really easy to hit things in FFSW, so I don't see reckless Jedi living long.

I'm playing a Jedi Initiate (actually a Smuggler/Scoundrel/Jedi Initiate) in a Skype game, and he's not any more powerful than the other PCs, as I've just reached the point with this PC where I could pick up both Lightsaber Defense talents and the Build Lightsaber talent... but I won't select those for this character. At least not without some kind of major bout of character development that would warrant such a thing.

As for adding Knowledge (Lore) for the Jedi Initiate... probably won't happen. A large part of my design intent with that specialization was "Jedi Basic Training." This isn't for a character that was raised and trained in the Jedi Order, but rather someone that came to the training later in life, much the same way that Luke Skywalker did. And while it wouldn't be a career skill, that doesn't mean a Jedi Initiate with a more scholarly bent couldn't pick up a rank or two at the non-career skill cost. I'd dare say that just a single skill rank would be sufficient, as so much of the Jedi Order's lore and history has been lost or suppressed in the wake of the Jedi Purge.

I do agree that with how FFG has (so far) presented Force-users, the big concern of them being so much more powerful than other PCs hasn't been an issue, for the reason you noted... the steep cost involved, particularly since Force powers are broken out much more than they were under d6 (with its 3 Force Skills) or Saga Edition (1 Force skill and feats to build up 'power suite') but not as drastically as they were under the OCR/RCR version (each power was a separate skill or feat). Plus, there's what seems to be a factor a lot of folks are overlooking, and that's the fluff element that for games set during the Dark Times and Rebellion Era, being publicly outed as a Force-user is a very bad thing. That alone is going to cut down on the overt uses of the Force.

Of course, there's no telling how much that dynamic will change once Force & Destiny is released to the masses, but I doubt it's going to be as bad as the aftermath of "new combat system" being implemented in Star Wars: Galaxies and the sheer explosion of Jedi that followed in its wake.

I think there is likely to be something of an upswing in force users in the AoR period as the new fluff from the Rebels cartoon comes on stream.

Inquisitors gone rebel, for a start. Force Witches. Asoka Tano.

The Jedi will rise, after all.

Darth Maul even?

Donovan Morningfire, on 01 Dec 2013 - 6:30 PM, said:

On Natural Duelist, it functions the same as any other re-roll in this system, in that the player discards the first roll and keeps the second roll, even if it's worse than the first roll. it's got the same wording as the other "Natural X" talents such as Natural Charmer, Natural Enforcer, Natural Hunter or Natural Pilot in that they simply state "once per session, player can choose to re-roll any one check for the specified skill." Saga Edition may have needed to specify which result was kept, but it seems FFG feels that players and GMs are smart enough to figure that one out on their own.

Donovan Morningfire, on 01 Dec 2013 - 6:30 PM, said:

As for the lightsaber pike, the reduced damage is partly from the smaller blade, which is the same reason why the shoto doesn't have the same base damage as a regular lightsaber. Plus it's got enough perks already, namely the Defensive quality and the fact it could be used as a double weapon if the GM wished to allow it (treating the haft as a truncheon I'd think in terms of damage, though you'd have the issue of two different combat skills and possibly two different Characteristics depending on the player's choice when they took the Lightsaber skill).

If I would want to create for a NPC a " full length lightsaber polearm " -- i.e. an otherwise normal-length lightsaber attached to a staff end -- is that the sort of thing that should 'simply' be a MacGuffin of sorts?

I wonder how you would stat up the long-handle lightsaber, seeing as it's apparently got a similar if not identical blade length to a regular lightsaber but not so long a hilt length as to justify what you described to as the statistical advantages of the lightsaber pike (not least since FFG doesn't model reach or length-as-disadvantage for polearms), including Defensive inherent to the weapon instead of " more about the person using them than the weapon itself ." (I wouldn't 'worry' too much about Darth Nihl's weapon as an indicator -- the art is quite inconsistent, and at times it was full-out " full length lightsaber polearm " to the extent that I was inquiring about.)

I'd probably make it pure fluff. I don't think it really needs separate, better stats. Arms races are neither helpful nor fun when it comes to lightsabers. I'm so sick of seeing every Force-wielder being a Jedi dual-wielding lightsabers in reverse grips. Ugh.

I'd probably make it pure fluff. I don't think it really needs separate, better stats. Arms races are neither helpful nor fun when it comes to lightsabers. I'm so sick of seeing every Force-wielder being a Jedi dual-wielding lightsabers in reverse grips. Ugh.

Pfffft, I hear that ... in general agreement here. The general idea for this NPC's weapon is supposed to be simply an otherwise normal lightsaber (stats as per the EotE book) attached to one end (with compatible receptacle) of an otherwise-normal staff, but if it's a NPC-exclusive MacGuffin then I'm not fussed about simply having to 'cross that bridge when it's gotten to', especially seeing that Donovan was clear about what his canon basis for the lightsaber pike was, whereas mine for this MacGuffin was basically that one Shadow Guard image.

Chortles,

About "Natural Duelist," as I thought had been made clear, it functions exactly the same as the various other "Natural X" type of talents. So however the GM runs those talents in their games, Natural Duelist works the exact same way. If the GM allows the player to pick the better of the two results when using Natural Brawler/Charmer/Driver/Medic/Pilot/etc, then that's how Natural Duelist would function. And if the GM does what I suspect most of us do, and require the player keep the second result when using Natural Brawler/Charmer/Driver/Medic/Pilot/etc, then again that's how Natural Duelist would work. Not sure how I can make it any plainer than that.

As for the lightsaber pike, we're just going to have to agree to disagree. I used the screenshot references from The Force Unleashed, and from what I saw, the blade wasn't the same length as Starkiller's regular lightsaber blade.

And I agree with KShatriya that not every single variant lightsaber type needs to be given stats, and that the bulk of them, including such types as the curved-hilt, long-handled, great 'saber, and even the dual-phase and l can instead just be treated as a standard lightsaber in terms of how it functions. Much the same as FFG hasn't done stats for every individual type of heavy blaster pistol out there, I don't see a need to do stats for every single variant lightsaber type. I only hit the ones that I think truly warranted being noted as "different" enough from the regular lightsaber.

@ Natural x : More than good enough of an explanation for me.

I don't believe that we're in disagreement; my own response was meant to say that " yeah, I see where your sources are and what your lightsaber pike is meant to represent ." I mean, when The Jedi Path is flat-out saying " shorter blade "...

Moreover, after your initial reply to me, I believe that I saw the same screenshots you did too; my intended MacGuffin is simply not supposed to be those that your lightsaber pike stat block represents -- which I accept for those without rebuttal -- and this reply more than answers my questions about other lightsaber hilt styles... especially when, as I said before, FFG flat out doesn't simulate the difference between great 'sabers/dual-phase lightsabers over regular lightsabers at all , due to all melee weapons (including lightsabers) having only Engaged unless thrown.

Very impressive! The only nitpick I really have for it would be to change the Magnitude upgrade for Force Healing from healing one person multiple times (or something along those lines) to being able to use Force Healipng multiple times anywhere, equal to one plus the number of magnitude upgrades. I say this because I don't fully understand the current meaning, which was very confusing, and I personally think that it might work better just multiple times.

I'd also change it to per session/adventure, because if it's per day a player can potentially use it multiple times in one with only the basis.