I remember seeing discussion of this during the old Beta. It basically means that if you have a score of 40 and roll a roll a 38 you have 2 degrees of success but if you have a score of 39 and roll a 38 you have 1 degree of success. I definitely preferred the older 1 additional degree of success for every 10 your rolled below the modified score. It wasn't hard math.

The DoS change looks like an attempt to simplify the math of the game, but introduces weirdness like in your example. I'll probably stick with taking the tens digit of the difference. It can be slower but the new system introduces some weird incentives to game your characteristics to avoid a high ones digit. The difference between 39 and 40 is a degree of success now, and that's crazy.

Rolls 1 or 100

If the result of the percentile roll is a natural 1, the test succeeds, even if the total modifiers made the skill or characteristic less than 1. Likewise, if the result is a natural 100, then the test fails, even if the total modifiers made the skill or characteristic greater than 100.

This is new, or I never noticed it before.

This isn't new. I think it first appeared in BC.

The first was always present. A roll of 1 always succeeded, a roll of 100 always failed.

The second, however, is new, and.. that entire thing makes no sense to me. I'm kinda high on caffeine and other stimulant at the moment, but that's just.. confusing to me. I feel like an idiot, but.. what?

I think the Only War system worked great, and didn't even require thinking to work out. You succeed, that's one Degree of Success. For every 10 above the Success, you added another Degree of Success - the opposite was true for Degrees of Failure, obviously.

Maybe I'm just confused, I don't feel very well at the moment.

It's been discussed before, but the general conclusion reached is that the "weird" math of the different DoS system is both for simplification AND to equalize the value of the 10s digit among attributes. Keep in mind that the 10s digit adds a bonus to lots of things (toughness bonus, intelligence, agility), and that things like perception an fellowship are kind of shafted in terms of value for their 10s digits. The new DoS system makes it important to raise the 10s digit of ALL attributes, because it now adds an additional degree of success to your rolls. This does mean that the 1s digit is no longer related to DoS, which, while being easier to calculate, is a bit weird to wrap your head around. I like the change, though, for its equalizing effect and the simpler math. Keep the former in mind with balance when considering ignoring it.

It's been discussed before, but the general conclusion reached is that the "weird" math of the different DoS system is both for simplification AND to equalize the value of the 10s digit among attributes. Keep in mind that the 10s digit adds a bonus to l

Uhm... But it doesn't simplify anything. It is still one subtraction and one (well, actually, it is now two) "check the tens".

I accidentally posted before writing the whole thing. Check the edit above. And yes, it's generally simpler to just subtract single digits you can instantly look at rather than subtracting double digits doing extra math or effort to simplify that in your head. I just have to look at the 10s digit of both numbers and subtract them. It IS simpler, although this may be a very small increment for some people (not for me).

It IS simpler, although this may be a very small increment for some people (not for me).

Duuuuuudeee, it is like, elementary math ... You can't be that lazy!

But seriously, this tiny amount of simplification doesn't worth the weird change in DoS/DoF calculation.

It's been discussed before, but the general conclusion reached is that the "weird" math of the different DoS system is both for simplification AND to equalize the value of the 10s digit among attributes. Keep in mind that the 10s digit adds a bonus to lots of things (toughness bonus, intelligence, agility), and that things like perception an fellowship are kind of shafted in terms of value for their 10s digits. The new DoS system makes it important to raise the 10s digit of ALL attributes, because it now adds an additional degree of success to your rolls. This does mean that the 1s digit is no longer related to DoS, which, while being easier to calculate, is a bit weird to wrap your head around. I like the change, though, for its equalizing effect and the simpler math. Keep the former in mind with balance when considering ignoring it.

I actually hadn't considered this angle. It will be interesting to see how things shake out with characteristic bonus being a thing for all characteristics.

Interesting... and a bit weird.

We're almost getting to a point where we can start rolling d10s instead of d100s now.

It IS simpler, although this may be a very small increment for some people (not for me).

Duuuuuudeee, it is like, elementary math ... You can't be that lazy!

But seriously, this tiny amount of simplification doesn't worth the weird change in DoS/DoF calculation.

Yeah, I.. it seems like convolution in order to simplify something that.. is the added convolution worth the simplification?

The previous system may have been marginally less math, but when operating at these miniscule levels, is it really necessary? Again, this may be either due to me being drugged up or simply being an idiot, but I'm still having a hard time wrapping my head around the description.

For a new player, wrapping your head above the above description to begin with may very well take longer than any and all time possibly saved by the system in practice.

We had this whole discussion once (actually, I think 3 or 4 times) already. Nothing new to see here.

I have a couple of players who had trouble calculating the old DoS system on the fly (not helped by the vast array of modifiers, of course), but all immediately grasped this new method. I speak from experience when I say that it is simpler and it does make a difference. The equalizing aspect that Nimsim mentioned is also a very valid point.

Kudos for keeping it.

The equalizing aspect that Nimsim mentioned is also a very valid point.

It isn't an equalizing aspect, more like a "Why do we even have one digits for the characteristics?" thing. I can't see how it equalizes anything. If you needed more DoS then you increased your characteristic score anyway - but now you can just stop at the 0 mark and call it a day. And it also messes up non-rounded characteristic scores:

- If you have 1, 2, 3 or 4 as the one digit, then you will need two advancements to gain the same advantage (chance for more DoS) you would normally get after one advancement in the previous system.

- If you have 5, 6, 7, 8 or 9 as the one digit then you are running on "uneconomic" mode because another character with the same tens digit but a lesser one digit will have the same chance to earn DoS as you. Unlike in the previous system, where you had a better chance to earn more DoS with a higher one digit.

So you either have a characteristic score that ends with a 0 or you are slightly handicapped in the efficiency department. Yay for the point distribution system at character creation I guess ...

AtoMaki

Considering how many actual mathematical analyses I ran on the old Beta, I don't think anyone on this forum can legitimately call me lazy about numbers. My honest experience at the the table has been having to verbally work out degrees of success with players and then double checking due to the complication of the math. It's a lot easier to make mistakes subtracting 26 from 63 than it is to subtract 2 from 6 and add 1 to it.

Fdsfg

I'll agree with you that the biggest problem with the current DoS system is that it doesn't FEEL right if you consider the basic math. Plus, you'll get people for whom the simplification is too small a change to seem like it's actually any simpler. So yes, it's a hard sell to players apt to question the system. However, I do think that if you have a player like that, they'll probably understand the explanation on how this system adds to characteristic bonuses. I think it would be helpful if FFG added the explanation of it to the actual text, but I have a sneaking suspicion that the change to the value of the 10s digit my have just been a happy accident on their part rather than intention. No way of knowing, though.

AtoMaki, that was already an issue for characteristics with characteristic bonuses that applies heavily (agility, toughness). The new system makes that an issue for ALL of the characteristics, rather than just those which use their bonus frequently.

AtoMaki, that was already an issue for characteristics with characteristic bonuses that applies heavily (agility, toughness). The new system makes that an issue for ALL of the characteristics, rather than just those which use their bonus frequently.

No, this new system just sprays those issues all over the place! That's hardly an improvement IMHO.

And I have never, ever ran into any trouble from calculating DoS. Like, absolutely never. Not even during my very-very first game. I'm actually just a thread away from calling your problem BS, but I give you the benefit of the doubt .

Then let me chime in in support of Nimsim here
In my group it's definitely a problem, and most of us have no problem with mental maths usually. It may be something to do with playing from eight to midnight rather than, say, four to eight o'clock...

Ah, see, THAT'S an actual argument. Yes, this equalizing solution is essentially taking the problem of characteristic bonuses and applying them to every characteristic. So yes, it could be viewed as fixing something by breaking other parts of it. Personally, I feel that problem with the 10s digit will always exist if you use characteristic bonuses. Given that those don't seem to be leaving, this seems like a decent equalizer (although it would be better to have char. bonuses be equally used for all characteristics, but that's difficult/impossible to do with these).

Also, thank you for your generous willingness to accept that I'm not BSing you on math. I'm sure that this openness toward understanding how other people experience and play a game makes you excel at arguing the finer points of game design.

Ah, see, THAT'S an actual argument. Yes, this equalizing solution is essentially taking the problem of characteristic bonuses and applying them to every characteristic. So yes, it could be viewed as fixing something by breaking other parts of it. Personally, I feel that problem with the 10s digit will always exist if you use characteristic bonuses. Given that those don't seem to be leaving, this seems like a decent equalizer (although it would be better to have char. bonuses be equally used for all characteristics, but that's difficult/impossible to do with these).

True, it's fixing something by breaking it more. There's that catch, though: You're at least equalizing expectations.

When a player first realizes that hitting the 10s digit is a good thing, it's weird to have to explain that this is true for everything except WS and BS.

It also removes WS and BS as dump stats for point buy characters (go for multiples of 5 in every stat, and shave off the odd numbers in WS/BS).

A way to avoid calculations when determining DoS without changing the probability distribution much would be to let the 10-digit dice be the DoS if the roll was successful. A successful roll of 28 would always be 2 DoS and 57 would be 5 DoS regardless of skill-level.

I don't have the books handy, but I seem to recall that DH1 had a bit that said GMs should feel free to 'house-rule' that 01-05 always passed and 96-00 always failed; it wasn't official, but if I'm remembering right it was implicitly recommended.

The new DoS calculation is straight out of Beta1 . I railed against it previously (what's so hard about counting increments of 10? why am I rolling two dice if I'm treating it like a single-digit roll? etc), but I was in the minority on this. I guess I'll just have to suck it up and accept the new system, even though it's like fingernails on a chalkboard to my OCDness...

I too, liked DH1 better. Increments of 10 isn't that hard. What's this subtract bonuses nonsense?

The new DoS calculation is straight out of Beta1 . I railed against it previously (what's so hard about counting increments of 10? why am I rolling two dice if I'm treating it like a single-digit roll? etc), but I was in the minority on this. I guess I'll just have to suck it up and accept the new system, even though it's like fingernails on a chalkboard to my OCDness...

Yeah. The DoS change was discussed at length previously, with me being strongly on the "this makes the mathematician in me cry" side of the fence. While I still disagree with the "simplified" DoS calculation, I no longer care enough, or have the energy, to get into another fight about it.

On the topic of "Only War update" vs. "completely new rule system!" this was probably the one change that nudged me towards the DH1.5 camp. Wonderful to see it's the one thing* they've kept from beta1.

*) Disclaimer, I haven't had a chance to read the new ruleset yet, so I don't actually know if this is the only thing that survived from beta1.

In old Dark Heresy, I used the "tens is degrees of success, 9 - tens is degrees of failure, a 00 is maximum failure possible (as though he had gotten one more than he required)", and the probabilities remain the same. While you might say that the original system was elementary maths, it was still one two digit number less another, which does take significantly more time than just looking at the tens dice. No really, it does.

The auto-pass/fail is mentioned in original DH (though 1-5, not just 1), and was also in the previous iteration of the DH2 beta. Not sure what the change was.

Put me down for old DoS please.